[Aztlan] Captives and Hair Pulling

Fri Aug 4 11:36:55 CDT 2006

Thats a really interesting bit there.  Are there depictions of that taking place?  Is the one being tortured restrained in some way?  Reason being is that I don't feel I could qualify this image as "torture" as the one on the ground is clearly armed (and delivering his opponent a nasty wound) seemingly capable to fight back.  But that does look like he's going for that nerve.  Very interesting.

Justin Kerr <mayavase at verizon.net> wrote:        v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}        st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }                Allen,
  The text on the bone merely says, “his jaguar bone, Flint Face of Naranjo”. We do not know the names of the individuals on the vase as no one is named, but the possibility is that the man on the left is “Great Jaguar Paw of Calakmul”.
  A popular form of torture in the Precolumbian world was cutting the facial nerve (where the bone is pointing) causing the eye to leave the socket and the tongue to hang out of the mouth. There are many masks showing the outcome of this procedure and are called “Tuerto” meaning one eyed.
  Justin

---------------------------------

  From: Allen Johnson [mailto:allenj456 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:08 PM
To: Justin Kerr; aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Subject: RE: [Aztlan] Captives and Hair Pulling

    Another great image! Thank you.  After looking at that and the bone (7747) I agree that its a very likley conclusion.  The measure ment of the bone and the size depicted on the vase look to be a resonable match.  It's very interesting to see a contest of two "daggers" like this.  (do we have a technical word for weapons like these?)  It's obviously an arranged fight with their seconds ?) behind them that would appear to be offering replacement 'daggers' in case one was broken, dropped or lodged in an opponent.   (do we have an idea on who these people might be behind the fighters?)  At any rate, its a great depiction of a very violent encounter in which one guy trades getting stabbed in the ribs for getting the other guy in the eye.  Duels in which both contestants were injured (or even both killed) is very common and was at least in Europe, of much concern for as long as swords were around.  So it does not seem out of place for the same thing to be happening here.

    -Allen

Justin Kerr <mayavase at verizon.net> wrote:

      We don’t have any “real” data as the Maya did not leave any manuals on fighting. What we do have are images of warriors being abused, humiliated and in at least one case subjected to sexual abuse. I am not a student of Martial Arts, my job is to supply the images for others to ponder over, so I will not argue a case for ‘surrender”. 

    On another topic you might take a look at 7749 in the database. We believe the weapons are sharpened bones, similar to 7747 in the Precolumbian Portfolio.

    Justin

---------------------------------

    From: Allen Johnson [mailto:allenj456 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 11:14 AM
To: Justin Kerr; aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Subject: RE: [Aztlan] Captives and Hair Pulling

      "...we assumed this position was a Maya way of saying "time out" or "I give up"..."  Really?  I'm very curious as to what led to that conclusion!  From a martial arts perspective that looks like a very natural progression in a fight.

      Here are a few historical images that display a very similar use or result of a leg grab in fighting

      From a German manual known as 'Goliath' (MS 2020) is a multi-weapon fechtbuch (fightbook) whose chapters correspond closely with the "Danzig" fechtbuch of 1452 (MS 1449). 
http://www.schielhau.org/images/151.jpg

      A German grappling manual by Hans Wurm from apx 1505.

      http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Wurm/04b.jpg

      http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Wurm/04a.jpg

      Another German fechtbuch known as Codex Wallerstein from 1470

      http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/40.jpg

      http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/39.jpg

      http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/63.jpg

      http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/79.jpg

      http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/98.jpg

      the list could go on for days.

      I would just find it suprising that this would be a display for submission when from a biomechanical standpoint it's a very strategic and martialy sound offensive technique.  If the 'captive' in the K2352 image pulls up on his opponents leg and takes one agressive step forward and to his left, the 'captor' in going to be flat on his back.  The curiosity rises :)

      -Allen

Justin Kerr <mayavase at verizon.net> wrote:

        For your information, if you type the word warriors into the look for bar you will probably find many more images that will be of interest.

      As a side note to K2352, in reference to the warrior holding his captors leg; we assumed this position was a Maya way of saying “time out” or “I give up” meaning the struggle was over for him and he accepts his fate.

      Justin

---------------------------------

      From: Allen Johnson [mailto:allenj456 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 10:18 AM
To: Justin Kerr
Subject: RE: [Aztlan] Captives and Hair Pulling

        Thank you so much for pointing these out to me!  There is some great info here...

        K680- As I see it, that is a depiction of a freshly decapitated head.  Or is that what you were implying and I just didn't pick it up?  however that is a good image as there are 3 more captives trussed up at the feet of a dignitary as I described before.

        K2206- Now this one is interesting.  Approaching this from a martial arts standpoint its got some really curious things.  In both cases, the 'captives' are still in possession of their weapons.  The fellow on the left has his spear angled down and pass his opponent. (the 'captor' has his feet and lower body turned away- possible dodge of the initial spear thrust?)  If this is a literal happening he still would be able to mount a counterattack if further action was not taken by the captor.  

           The 'captive' on the right actually seems to be in a better position than his 'captor'!  He has seized the haft of his opponents spear and appears to be in the process of giving a hard downward hack with his axe.  The 'captor's' feet and lower body are actually turned away from his opponent- from my martial arts experience this looks very much like someone preparing to try and dodge an incoming blow when they are restrained from a full traverse.  (He could drop his spear, let go of his opponents hair and run, thus avoiding the axe cut but that would leave the other guy with 2 weapons and the initiative)

        K2352- Fantastic image of grappling in the middle!  The 'captor' apparently had his right arm seized by his opponent.  It's probable that the 'captive' then shot in for the leg grab (this technique is VERY common in almost all martial arts ancient and modern.  Asian, medieval and Renaissance Europe, even today's Olympic wrestling and mixed martial arts fights).  At this point, it appears that the 'captor' scooped his opponent under the arm and pull him in and around his back into the lock that appears on the vase.  Leaving his left hand free for the hair grab.  Brilliant image there!

          The parade of captive on the right side of the image show the hair pull and a grip on the right elbow as a means of control.  This makes perfect sense in a martial arts perspective.  A large bulk of grappling techniques are centered on controlling the opponents elbow.  This position they are in is a very difficult one to get out of with a skilled captor.

        K7516- I have nothing to add to your comments on this one.  It would seem to be fairly apparent that he's about to get rocked :)

        Thanks again!

        I would love to hear any other comments or interpretations others might have on these. 

        -Allen 

Justin Kerr <mayavase at verizon.net> wrote:

        Dear Allen,
There are at least four specific images in the Maya vase Database that
relate to your question.
K680. Although there is not much body to be seen, the executioner is holding
onto the poor fellow's hair.
K2206. A battle scene from the highlands with 2 captives being held by their
hair.
K2352. Probably another version of the same battle with 3 captives held by
their hair. Note that the hair of the captives is cut short, one of the
humiliation techniques.
K7516. The captive is being held by his hair as executioners prepare to beat
him (probably to death) with stones.
For FAMSI
Justin Kerr 

-----Original Message-----
From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
On Behalf Of Allen Johnson
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 2:07 PM
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Subject: [Aztlan] Captives and Hair Pulling

Whenever there are depictions of prisoners of war in Aztec iconography they
are usually either trussed up (usually at the feel of a dignitary) or being
held by their captor by a tuff of hair at the top of their heads. With this
hair pulling... Has anyone come across anything that would suggest that
this is a method in which these captives were actually taken? There is some
value to hair pulling as a martial technique, but is it really practical?
Or is it a symbolic depiction of humiliating ones opponent?

Many thanks,
Allen Johnson

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