[Aztlan] K2352

[Allen Johnson]

I'm very pleased to have others, especially with some martial background, participating.  I have been studying and training in historical European swordplay, dagger and grappling for the last 7 years or so and appreciate all sources of information.
   
    I agree that I did not use the word "arm bar" properly.  Those usually imply a hyper-extending of the elbow joint and that is clearly not what is going on here. Mea culpa.
   
  I also made the error of thinking we were looking at warrior A's back (keeping with Mr. Edgerton's designation).  I am corrected in that it is his chest that faces us.  That would make his right arm cocked up in front of his body rather than a hold that goes behind his back.  

  The idea of this position coming from a failed choke hold attempt is an interesting one.  I'll have to physically work through that with an uncooperative opponent to get a better picture of how it physically works.  I suppose there are really any number of ways that these combatants got into this position.  Obviously the rules and regulations of Olympic style wrestling do not apply here but do make for an interesting comparison.  I might point that some of the mixed martial arts competitions (such as Ultimate Fighting Championship) might make for a somewhat closer comparison.  There are no points or fouls (there are a few understandable ones like no eye gouging or blows to the groin) with just the end result (knockout or submission) that matters.  Similar to actual combat.  
   
  With so much of the culture being centered around warfare (or at least it played a large role) there must have been an established system of combat.
   
  In the Aztec society they had their military training schools, (the 'telpochcalli' and the 'calmecac' if I'm understanding thing correctly).  What did they teach?  If they submitted their children to these schools as early as 15 years old (?) then there had to be an established system that could be described and taught.  This is what I'm after.  Since there are no actuall manuals that describe the physical fighting techniques, I am looking at the end result of that training by breaking down what we have in the way of artwork and period textual accounts.
   
  Im pleased there are a few others that find this interesting :)
  -Allen
  
Sam Edgerton <Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu> wrote:
  Listeros: As an old college wrestler (U of Pennsylvania, '49, '50 and 
after college, coached high-school wrestling for a dozen years - - I even 
wrestled Donald Rumsfeld when he was at Princeton, but lost 5-0), I must 
comment on Allen Johnson's interesting observation below concerning the 
Maya "wrestlers" and "hair-pullers" on vase K2352. From my experience, I 
see no evidence among these figures that anyone is administering an 
arm-twisting "submission hold." What is actually going on between the pair 
in the center is this: the right warrior (I'll call him "B") has attempted 
a choke hold on left warrior "A", but "A" has cleverly grasped inside B's 
right arm, pulling B's right arm away from his neck and at the same time 
holding tight to that arm and straightening up, pulling B slightly forward 
and off balance. With his left hand A grasps B's right leg below the knee 
(very important). In the next instant, A will try to lift B's right leg 
up, and with his own right leg, trip B from inside B's left leg. This will 
throw B on his back with A on top. In free-style wrestling this is known as 
a take-down, and A would have scored two points. In the meantime, B should 
resist, not by pulling on A's hair as here (a foul in amateur wrestling) or 
continuing his choke attempt, but more effectively by leaning hard into A, 
removing his right arm free from A's neck and reaching over A's back and 
inside his right arm-pit, at the same time B must throw both his own legs 
straight back as hard as possible to break A's grip. Legs are four times 
stronger than arms, and B must avoid at all costs being tripped. B's head 
hold is actually rather useless, and if he keeps it up, it will probably 
have cost him his life. I don't really see any of the warriors depicted on 
this vase in position to employ an arm bar. To do that you need to get 
behind your opponent, which would only be possible in the struggle between 
A and B if A's forward trip maneuver is successful.
Sam Edgerton

"...That vase image of K2352 really speaks volumes for me with a very 
effective submission hold at the same time that the hair is being 
pulled. Over the weekend I worked this technique with a friend of 
mine. It works really well. If I pressed the arm bar in the back just a 
little bit, my parter was in some very quick and real pain. You could
very easily separate someones shoulder from that position.
Thanks all!
-Allen" 

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