[Aztlan] glyph decipherment.
David and Fiona Gray
davefiona at yahoo.com
Wed Aug 9 22:47:46 CDT 2006
Hi All,
I was looking at online Mayan glyph dictionaries and was wondering how they worked out what a particular glyph means. As the saying goes a picture tells a thousand words.
Cheers Dave G
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Subject: Aztlan Digest, Vol 9, Issue 8
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: K2352 (Allen Johnson)
2. feathered shields (Allen Johnson)
3. RE: Sierra del Lacandon and Piedras Negras Threatened
(David Becraft)
4. RE: Letters Needed: Crisis on the Usumacinta (David Becraft)
5. Re: Re: 2012: Was there a word for 'repetition'? (villas)
6. The debate on archaeological looting (michael ruggeri)
7. RE: feathered shields (Justin Kerr)
8. Re: feathered shields (Greg Sandor)
9. Query (Jorge P?rez de Lara)
10. RE: Sierra del Lacandon and Piedras Negras Threatened
(eschele at mail.utexas.edu)
11. Re: Query - Terry Rutledge (Elisabeth Wagner)
12. Routledge? (info at mayavision.com)
13. Looting of sites issue (michael ruggeri)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:43:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Allen Johnson <allenj456 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] K2352
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <20060808164354.6320.qmail at web50411.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Thank you for that lead. I'll certainly be looking into it. Do you know if the articles you are refering to are in her book 'Ecstatic Trance: New Ritual Body Postures'?
Thanks,
Allen
Carolyn Tate <carolyn.tate at ttu.edu> wrote:
Dear Allen,
Felicitas Goodman has published some articles dealing with poses of Olmec
figures as related to shamanic practices. It's fair to say that there was a
supernatural component of warfare in Mesoamerica that drew upon such
experiences, so this may be an avenue that should not be ignored.
Carolyn Tate
On 8/7/06 2:00 PM, "Allen Johnson" wrote:
> Yes Sam, you may ;)
> I agree that with as much schooling and as much first hand knowledge as
> these people had to violent encounters, they would easily know if an artist
> knew what he was doing. I have noticed in my few years with studying and
> training in various European martial art and then cross training and
> competing with various other martial arts forms (mostly Asian) that alot of
> the base techniques and especially grappling is markedly similar. In my
> opinion, the reason is that we are all human beings and working with the same
> tool as it were in this reguard. There are only so many ways you can use this
> fleshy tool to effectivley fight another one. To those that study and use it
> to great effectivness, all seem to arrive with the same basic techniques. I
> have a collegue who is in the US military and did a comparative study on the
> techniques they teach in their Army Combatives classes and how identical they
> were to German Medieval texts. It was astonishing. So alot of my ideas and
> theories come from, what biomechanically works effectivley.
>
> As far as native American martial arts go, I have done little to no research
> into that area. As far as I know, there are few who profess to practice and
> train in historic Native American fighting styles. Many will show you the
> finer points of tomahawk fighting and throwing and things like that, but what
> do they back up their ideas with. i dont know...havent looked into it. But
> it certainly would be a worth while approach.
>
> -Allen
>
>
> Sam Edgerton wrote:
> Hi Allen (if I may): What's really interesting here, for me anyway as a
> hobbyist sports historian, is that not only does warrior A in K2352 know
> the proper wrestling holds (I'm especially impressed that he knew to grab
> B below the knee, not above the knee joint as so may neophyte grapplers
> try, only to have the opponents easily shake free) but the Maya painter
> surely knew his wrestling too - which means as you suggest that there must
> have been a Maya training school, from which A learned the right tricks
> while B is caught off-guard. Beginners always try for a choke hold which
> looks great in phony pro wrestling, but will utterly fail and get you
> immediately pinned if you try it on an experienced free-style (Olympic)
> wrestler. Wrestling, after all, is one of the oldest if not the oldest
> one-on-one sports, not only in the classical Western world, but very much
> so (and still practiced still today) in Asia from Iran across southern
> Russia through the various "-stans" around Siberia and China, the very
> place where American Indians were supposed to have hailed from some 13000
> years ago before they crossed the Bering Straits. Wouldn't it be
> fascinating if they brought some of these ancient wrestling moves with them
> to the Americas?
> Sam Edgerton
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 11:38:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Allen Johnson <allenj456 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] feathered shields
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <20060808183823.79322.qmail at web50401.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Has anyone come across photos of the backs of period feathered shields such as these: http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/aztec-shields.htm
Im particularly interested in the way in which the shields are strapped and gripped as this affects the way someone moves in combat.
Thanks!
-Allen
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:21:03 -0700
From: "David Becraft" <david_becraft at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Aztlan] Sierra del Lacandon and Piedras Negras
Threatened
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <BAY105-F338E1C129970B9428D30898B540 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Are these European Invaders like those that have been coming since 1492? if
Not, then are they people from Asia or Africa? If NOT, then these are
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE who have been displaced for the last 514 years from their
Aboriginal lands. Think about it Listeros. These are Indigenous people
from North America...FINALLY reclaiming their land.
David F. Becraft
>From: "Dave Pentecost" <dave.pentecost at gmail.com>
>To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>CC: Charles Golden <cgolden at brandeis.edu>
>Subject: [Aztlan] Sierra del Lacandon and Piedras Negras Threatened
>Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:32:03 -0400
>
>Listeros
>
>There has been no coverage in the American press, but the situation in
>the Sierra del Lacandon, on the Usumacinta River in Guatemala, has
>been deteriorating. Large groups of invading settlers, many backed by
>narcotraffickers, are destroying the jungle in this critical protected
>area.
>
>The Maya site of Piedras Negras is in the Sierra del Lacandon Park.
>The guard post for that site (at El Porvenir, and two other posts were
>burned to the ground and the guards evacuated recently. This is part
>of an ongoing battle that in June of this year resulted in 8 hostages,
>two of them injured by gunfire. The invaders are demanding title to
>the land, which is a protected area, administered by the Defensores de
>la Naturaleza and CONAP in Guatemala.
>
>You can read my site for updates on this situation:
>
>http://www.gomaya.com/glyph
>
>Or go directly to these recent news reports
>
>http://www.noti7.com.gt/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=8930
>http://www.prensalibre.com/pl/2006/agosto/06/148671.html
>
>Earlier, guard posts at Yaxha were burned in a similar dispute, and
>last week three guards at Tikal were ambushed and killed:
>
>http://www.prensalibre.com/pl/2006/agosto/06/148671.html
>
>I am preparing a report for Frontline on the situation in the
>Usumacinta watershed, but it is quickly going beyond anything I have
>the power to record and present. What we are seeing is the complete
>ungovernability of large areas of Guatemala, and these are areas with
>high biodiversity and great cultural treasures.
>
>Dave
>--
>The Daily Glyph http://www.gomaya.com/glyph
>Usumacinta http://www.gomaya.com/dams
>Cell 917 312 9733
>_______________________________________________
>Aztlan mailing list
>Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:26:00 -0700
From: "David Becraft" <david_becraft at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Aztlan] Letters Needed: Crisis on the Usumacinta
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Cc: cgolden at brandeis.edu
Message-ID: <BAY105-F36AC088D701BCB00E022558B540 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Listeros,
The last time the U.S. got involved in Guatemala...and El Salvador,
Honduras, and Nicaragua; thousands of innocent people died. This indeed is
a Land issue, but its not about protecting the "Parks", its about protecting
the rights of Indigenous people to use their own land, which has been held
back from them.
David F. Becraft
>From: charles golden <cgolden at brandeis.edu>
>To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>Subject: [Aztlan] Letters Needed: Crisis on the Usumacinta
>Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:11:34 -0400
>
>Dear Listeros,
>
>Many thanks to Dave Pentecost for posting the links to news reports on the
>Sierra del Lacandon and Piedras Negras.
>
>I wanted to write to emphasize the situation is dire.
>
>This could be the moment in which Piedras Negras is lost to the looters for
>good, and the remaining portions of the park are burned or logged out. I
>have worked in the area since 1997, and I have experienced all the many,
>many problems that plague the Usumacinta. I have never seen such a crisis.
> Previous attacks on Piedras Negras or on the park authorities were
>sporadic and limited to one location. The current situation represents a
>concerted, multi-pronged attack designed to cause the Guatemalan
>authorities to abandon the park - a plan that has, for now, succeeded. The
>Usumacinta is now a free trade zone for looters, loggers, and narcos.
>
>I want to ask, on behalf of my friends in the Defensores de la Naturaleza,
>administrators of the park, who are valiantly trying to get the Guatemalan
>government to respond to this crisis, and on behalf of the Instituto de
>Antropologia e Historia in Guatemala which is similarly trying to protect
>Piedras Negras that you write to your representatives in congress and to
>the US ambassador in Guatemala City encouraging them to take action. In
>the past, political and economic support from the United States through the
>Embassy has been successful in getting action from the Guatemalan
>government.
>
>You can e-mail Ambassador James M. Derham at AmCitsGuatemala at state.gov
>
>If you have any questions please don't hesitate to contact me.
>
>Thank you,
>Charles Golden
>cgolden at brandeis.edu
>_______________________________________________
>Aztlan mailing list
>Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 18:08:21 -0400
From: villas <villas at anawak.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Re: 2012: Was there a word for 'repetition'?
To: "John Major Jenkins" <kahib at ix.netcom.com>
Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <f600ab2b6884fa50e8bf068f99825ef1 at anawak.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
The nature of time as reflected in the Calendar of Mesoamerica is
progressive, it doesn't really repeat and yet it is also cyclical in
that it follows a pattern based on astronomical movements; planetary
and celestial.
Marcos Villaseñor
Aug 4, 2006, at 9:08 PM, John Major Jenkins wrote:
> And yet, oddly, the two concepts share similar meanings in terms of
> cyclic repetitions and self-replacements, time and calendar.
>
> John Major Jenkins
>
>
>
> According to Carlsen's discussion of the form k'exoj in the couplet
> jaloj
> k'exoj, the root of Tzutujil k'exoj is k'ex, not k'eh or k'ej; this
> agrees with Kaufman's Mayan Vocabulary Survey data for Tzutujil. It
> comes from
> proto-Mayan *k'ex 'to (ex)change' (see p. 781 of the preliminary Mayan
> Etymological Dictionary posted at
> _http://www.famsi.org/reports/01051/index.html_
> (http://www.famsi.org/reports/01051/index.html) ), which has cognates
> in Lowland Mayan
> languages and must be a different root from the one cited by MacLeod.
>
> John Justeson
>
> Barb MacLeod discussed the Yukatek word k'eh as a word for
> 'repetition',
> used to reflect the concept of 'return to a calendric starting point'
> as
> well as 'repetition of a prior event'.
>
> It might be worth noting the highland Maya (Tzutujil) paradigm of
> change
> known as Jaloj Kexoj, in which Keh is a root concept relating to
> sequences of self-replacements, such as the sun replacing it on daily
> levels (at dawn) and yearly levels (at the December solstice). Or a
> newborn replacing the grandparent. Jal is change at the husk while Kej
> (or by different orthography, Keh) is change at the seed, or core. The
> concept seems closely related to the Yukatek usage, perhaps supplying
> an
> even deeper reading, and was explored by Carlsen and Prechtel in the
> essays:
>
> Carlsen, Robert S., and Martín Prechtel
> 1988 Weaving and Cosmos amongst the Tzutujil Maya of Guatemala. Res
> 15:122-132.
>
> Carlsen, Robert S., and Martín Prechtel
> 1990 The Flowering of the Dead: An Interpretation of Highland Maya
> Culture. Man (N.S.) 26:23-42.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 19:11:01 -0500
From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] The debate on archaeological looting
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <9289597E-87F2-46D6-8F66-15E1A2C15548 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Listeros,
When the listserv begins to veer off into political directions that
threaten to create charges and countercharges, we have to move on to
other topics to keep our listserv from ad hominems and focused on
scholarly pursuits.
Therefore, I ask that any further messages on the looting issue in
Guatemala be taken offline. There are several messages posted now I
will not send since that would start the ad hominems flowing and we
do not need that. AZTLAN remains a scholarly and genteel listserv.
I know you understand.
Mike Ruggeri
AZTLAN moderator
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 20:32:37 -0400
From: "Justin Kerr" <mayavase at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: [Aztlan] feathered shields
To: "'Allen Johnson'" <allenj456 at yahoo.com>, <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <001b01c6bb4b$51874a40$6701a8c0 at justnew>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Please look at numbers 1873 and 4651. All you have to do is type in the word
shield.
Justin
-----Original Message-----
From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
On Behalf Of Allen Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 2:38 PM
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Subject: [Aztlan] feathered shields
Has anyone come across photos of the backs of period feathered shields such
as these: http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/aztec-shields.htm
Im particularly interested in the way in which the shields are strapped
and gripped as this affects the way someone moves in combat.
Thanks!
-Allen
---------------------------------
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:19:37 -0400
From: "Greg Sandor" <gregory_sandor at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] feathered shields
To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <BAY103-DAV174E015A38165E0D68EED4E6550 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Allen,
I thought of your question about shields when I modeled these:
http://gregsandor.tripod.com/Mx/Mx.html
I think the result I came up with works well, but somehow still seems a
little unstable in a fight. I would want some kind of hand strap or maybe a
thumb loop to keep the shield from rocking around.
Regards,
Greg
(614) 517-7204
greg at gregsandor.com
http://www.gregsandor.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen Johnson" <allenj456 at yahoo.com>
To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 2:38 PM
Subject: [Aztlan] feathered shields
> Has anyone come across photos of the backs of period feathered shields
such as these: http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/aztec-shields.htm
>
> Im particularly interested in the way in which the shields are strapped
and gripped as this affects the way someone moves in combat.
>
> Thanks!
> -Allen
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice.
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 08:39:24 -0500
From: Jorge P?rez de Lara <jorgepl at estudioelias.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] Query
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <44D9E58C.3000805 at estudioelias.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Dear listeros,
I was wondering if anybody on Aztlan knows the contact information for
an artist whose last name is Routledge and who is known for this very
detailed and imaginative paintings and drawings of Maya myths.
Specifically, I remember seeing scenes of ball-playing in Xibalbá with
wonderful interpretations of the underworld gods. I have a proposition
for him and really need to get a hold of him.
Thanks in advance for any help any listeros may provide in this regard,
Jorge
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 09:12:51 -0500
From: eschele at mail.utexas.edu
Subject: RE: [Aztlan] Sierra del Lacandon and Piedras Negras
Threatened
To: David Becraft <david_becraft at hotmail.com>
Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <1155132771.44d9ed63af687 at webmailapp5.cc.utexas.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi David,
It would be nice if were as simple as what you wrote below, but unfortnately,
there are no simple answers. If you read the article in Prinsa Libre, you can
see that lawlessness and unaccountability is the real issue and anyone who
works in the area or cares about Guatemala and its people can be concerned.
Elaine
Quoting David Becraft <david_becraft at hotmail.com>:
> Are these European Invaders like those that have been coming since 1492? if
> Not, then are they people from Asia or Africa? If NOT, then these are
> INDIGENOUS PEOPLE who have been displaced for the last 514 years from their
> Aboriginal lands. Think about it Listeros. These are Indigenous people
> from North America...FINALLY reclaiming their land.
>
> David F. Becraft
>
> >From: "Dave Pentecost" <dave.pentecost at gmail.com>
> >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> >CC: Charles Golden <cgolden at brandeis.edu>
> >Subject: [Aztlan] Sierra del Lacandon and Piedras Negras Threatened
> >Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:32:03 -0400
> >
> >Listeros
> >
> >There has been no coverage in the American press, but the situation in
> >the Sierra del Lacandon, on the Usumacinta River in Guatemala, has
> >been deteriorating. Large groups of invading settlers, many backed by
> >narcotraffickers, are destroying the jungle in this critical protected
> >area.
> >
> >The Maya site of Piedras Negras is in the Sierra del Lacandon Park.
> >The guard post for that site (at El Porvenir, and two other posts were
> >burned to the ground and the guards evacuated recently. This is part
> >of an ongoing battle that in June of this year resulted in 8 hostages,
> >two of them injured by gunfire. The invaders are demanding title to
> >the land, which is a protected area, administered by the Defensores de
> >la Naturaleza and CONAP in Guatemala.
> >
> >You can read my site for updates on this situation:
> >
> >http://www.gomaya.com/glyph
> >
> >Or go directly to these recent news reports
> >
> >http://www.noti7.com.gt/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=8930
> >http://www.prensalibre.com/pl/2006/agosto/06/148671.html
> >
> >Earlier, guard posts at Yaxha were burned in a similar dispute, and
> >last week three guards at Tikal were ambushed and killed:
> >
> >http://www.prensalibre.com/pl/2006/agosto/06/148671.html
> >
> >I am preparing a report for Frontline on the situation in the
> >Usumacinta watershed, but it is quickly going beyond anything I have
> >the power to record and present. What we are seeing is the complete
> >ungovernability of large areas of Guatemala, and these are areas with
> >high biodiversity and great cultural treasures.
> >
> >Dave
> >--
> >The Daily Glyph http://www.gomaya.com/glyph
> >Usumacinta http://www.gomaya.com/dams
> >Cell 917 312 9733
> >_______________________________________________
> >Aztlan mailing list
> >Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 16:50:29 +0200
From: "Elisabeth Wagner" <koxop at gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Query - Terry Rutledge
To: "Jorge P?rez de Lara" <jorgepl at estudioelias.com>,
aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <20060809145029.309120 at gmx.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Jorge,
the only information I could find on Terry Rutledge is a link to a webpage that promotes his art. The site has not been updated since a couple of years, so I am not sure whether the e-mail address given there is still up to date.
E-mail: terry at dreamagic.com
http://www.dreamagic.com/captn/terry1.html
I hope this information is helpful for you. Good luck !
All the best from Germany,
Elisabeth
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 08:39:24 -0500
Von: "Jorge Pérez de Lara" <jorgepl at estudioelias.com>
An: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Betreff: [Aztlan] Query
> Dear listeros,
>
> I was wondering if anybody on Aztlan knows the contact information for
> an artist whose last name is Routledge and who is known for this very
> detailed and imaginative paintings and drawings of Maya myths.
> Specifically, I remember seeing scenes of ball-playing in Xibalbá with
> wonderful interpretations of the underworld gods. I have a proposition
> for him and really need to get a hold of him.
>
> Thanks in advance for any help any listeros may provide in this regard,
>
> Jorge
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
--
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------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:34:06 -0400
From: <info at mayavision.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] Routledge?
To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <C0FF78AD.2A1D%info at mayavision.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Jorge,
It's possible that you are referring to T.W. Rutledge the illustrator ( El
Mirador. Nat Geog. Sept.1987 ), If so, you might contact Brevard Community
College, Cocoa Campus, FL (407.633.4565) ask for Helton 'Hep' Aldridge for
updated info.
The last time I spoke with Terry Rutledge he was living in Brandon, Oregon.
(503.347.4355)
Cheers
Steve Radzi
info at mayavision.com
.
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:07:44 -0500
From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] Looting of sites issue
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <FD90866F-8C05-49E2-814E-41179C788644 at mac.com>
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Listeros,
After some rude postings and comebacks I discarded, I asked that we
discontinue the thread since it was going in a direction we do not
want to go. Several listeros feel we should just filter the rude
comments and continue with the thread.
I agree. Let's keep the postings scholarly and friendly.
Mike Ruggeri
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End of Aztlan Digest, Vol 9, Issue 8
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