[Aztlan] RE: Aztlan Digest, Vol 7, Issue 12
Diehl, Richard
rdiehl at as.ua.edu
Sun Jun 18 19:13:51 CDT 2006
Hi,
I also was at the SAA and missed the session you refer to. I decided against attending when I realized that there were no toltecistas on the program. The best recent publication dealing with the subject is a forthcoming Dumbarton Oaks volume with papers from a roundtable organized several years ago by Cynthia Kristan-Graham and Jeff Kowalski. I understand it is due out shortly. I do not have an article in it but I did attend the stimulating roundtable.
Dick Diehl
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Subject: Aztlan Digest, Vol 7, Issue 12
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Today's Topics:
1. Maya Mountains (Dan Deneen)
2. Re: Maya Mountains (D. M. Urquidi)
3. The Toltecs and Chichen Itza (michael ruggeri)
4. Re: Maya Mountains (D. M. Urquidi)
5. RE: Maya Mountains (D. M. Urquidi)
6. Regarding Mike Ruggeri's Post About Teeth (kim Goldsmith)
7. Re: Regarding Mike Ruggeri's Post About Teeth (D. M. Urquidi)
8. RE: Regarding Mike Ruggeri's Post About Teeth (Justin Kerr)
9. Maya exhibit opens at the Met (michael ruggeri)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 12:46:46 -0500
From: "Dan Deneen" <drd30 at columbia.edu>
Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Mountains
To: "Aztlan" <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <IMEOLGPMJANPPAAGJANGOELHCDAA.drd30 at columbia.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hola Listeros,
Does anyone have first-hand experience of the range of mountains called
"Maya Mountains" that run in a SW-NE direction across the Guatemala-Belize
border? I'm puzzled by the Cortes account, in his Fifth Letter, of a
harrowing 12-day traverse across "the most remarkable sight in the world,
and the most perilous to cross" in the course of which 68 horses fell to
their deaths. But topo maps, and satellite imagery, and Google earth all
suggest a very modest little range, far less imposing than dozens of others
these guys would have encountered. Any insights?
Thanks!
--Daniel D.
Xalapa, Ver.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:08:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: "D. M. Urquidi" <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Maya Mountains
To: drd30 at columbia.edu, Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <20060617200827.41893.qmail at web34313.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
If those mountains start around Tapachula, and/or the Volcano Tacana, it is very dangerous and horses could fall off the path easily, especially if they were thoroughbreds (skittish about strange places) . . . . . Tacana''s footpath up the mountain was so narrow that my sandals barely fit on the worn path, high above the trees far, far below.
Interesting top though, it had the Seat of Satan"" consisting of balsalt pillars . . .
Dea
D. M. Urquidi
dmu Ink
P.O. Box 49485
Austin, Texas 78765-49485
http://www.mayalords.org <http://www.mayalords.org/>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:20:17 -0500
From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] The Toltecs and Chichen Itza
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <82A1E23D-C5E3-4F12-A511-F00F9F2EF658 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Listeros,
I went to the SAA Convention in San Juan a few months ago and they
had a session on Chichen-Itza and the Toltecs. I missed the session.
I am wondering if any listeros were there and could give some of the
details presented there. If not, this topic is one of those
Mesoamerican issues that pit Mexicanists vs. Mayanists.
I would be interested in seeing a learned discussion of this area on
Aztlan.
Mike Ruggeri
Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/
index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and
Lectures
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Mound
Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/
index.html
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:35:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: "D. M. Urquidi" <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Maya Mountains
To: Lawrenc846 at aol.com, drd30 at columbia.edu, Aztlan
<aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <20060617233539.18229.qmail at web34313.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Lawrence:
Not so, but if the path I had to follow is on a Maya mountain, no matter where it is located, is still a very narrow path (for walking, not horses) I can assume that the horses had a huge (wide-chested) problem placing their hooves on such narrow tracks. Most of the mountains had narrow tracks for foot travel, Horses never had a chance.
Dea
Lawrenc846 at aol.com wrote:
You are assuming that any path would be a direct route from the Peten to Belize but the mountains, as witness 17th century descriptions, are more difficult if one goes southeast from Peten and crosses into southern Belize. At least that is what feeling one gets when reading those early descriptions (and I don't mean Cortes but various people in the 17th century). Anyway, Cortes was not intending to get to Belize but to Honduras which means a much more southeastern route.
Lawrence H. Feldman (Lawrenc846 at aol.com)
PS I don't have on my fingertips but can easily get the references if anyone is interested; until quite recently they were largely unpublished AGCA and AGI sources. I published them in 2000...
Lawrenc846 at aol.com wrote: You are assuming that any path would be a direct route from the Peten to Belize but the mountains, as witness 17th century descriptions, are more difficult if one goes southeast from Peten and crosses into southern Belize. At least that is what feeling one gets when reading those early descriptions (and I don't mean Cortes but various people in the 17th century). Anyway, Cortes was not intending to get to Belize but to Honduras which means a much more southeastern route.
Lawrence H. Feldman (Lawrenc846 at aol.com)
PS I don't have on my fingertips but can easily get the references if anyone is interested; until quite recently they were largely unpublished AGCA and AGI sources. I published them in 2000...
D. M. Urquidi
dmu Ink
P.O. Box 49485
Austin, Texas 78765-49485
http://www.mayalords.org <http://www.mayalords.org/>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:51:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: "D. M. Urquidi" <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Aztlan] Maya Mountains
To: drd30 at columbia.edu, Lawrenc846 at aol.com, Aztlan
<aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <20060617235126.46426.qmail at web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Dan
I answered the other before I arrived at your note. It was quite a hike, but only for foot travel. And if those horses were short, squat, war horses and not thoroghbreed steeds, it would actually make little difference. The width of a horse's chest (underneath his head area) would be much wider than my sandlals. If the horse was Spanish, or even German, the poor beast would have been petrified along any similar path.
Maybe that is why so many Maya porters were needed for travelers who could not "rise to the occassion." We had a discussion about this last month I believe, and the porters were used through the 18th century. . . and believe me, I could see why. That path was scarey for a 50 yr old. I wonder if I could walk it now at 74.
Dea
Dan Deneen <drd30 at columbia.edu> wrote:
Hi Lawrence--
That's right---I didn't mean to suggest that the route went easterly into Belize, and there's no reason to doubt the various accounts which describe a southeasterly descent from Lago Peten to Honduras-- (I'm assuming that the range is still called "Maya Mts" once it crosses into Guatemala-- maybe not?) but my question still stands: Cortes and buddies at this point were seasoned veterans of getting around some very rough terrain. It is the magnitude of the described difficulty which catches my attention: Horses were, of course, highly prized--- this kind of loss, and the length of time they were hung up in the crossing, is hard to jive with what I can figure out about the fairly tame-looking terrain.
Dea, that sounds like quite a hike! The area I'm looking at, however, is up on the Gulf of Honduras side, part of a very different range. Tacana, just based on elevations and topography on general maps, would look to be much more rugged and difficult than the SE piece of the Maya Mts I'm wondering about. Also, my impression is that the typical Spanish horse of the period was a pretty sturdy beast-- straight-backed, relatively short-legged, and not speedy thoroughbreds.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrenc846 at aol.com [mailto:Lawrenc846 at aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 5:41 PM
To: deamayaspin at yahoo.com; drd30 at columbia.edu
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Maya Mountains
You are assuming that any path would be a direct route from the Peten to Belize but the mountains, as witness 17th century descriptions, are more difficult if one goes southeast from Peten and crosses into southern Belize. At least that is what feeling one gets when reading those early descriptions (and I don't mean Cortes but various people in the 17th century). Anyway, Cortes was not intending to get to Belize but to Honduras which means a much more southeastern route.
Lawrence H. Feldman (Lawrenc846 at aol.com)
PS I don't have on my fingertips but can easily get the references if anyone is interested; until quite recently they were largely unpublished AGCA and AGI sources. I published them in 2000...
D. M. Urquidi
dmu Ink
P.O. Box 49485
Austin, Texas 78765-49485
http://www.mayalords.org <http://www.mayalords.org/>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
---------------------------------
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: kim Goldsmith <kiminmexico at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] Regarding Mike Ruggeri's Post About Teeth
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <20060618002132.41352.qmail at web60317.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hi All! The article about the teeth that were filed
down so as to accomodate what would have essentially
been an "animal denture" (unless I read it
incorrectly) was interesting, but I am wondering if
they actually found some animal teeth near the
person's mouth area?
The article states that this practice is common in
later times with some Maya, but I don't ever remember
hearing something like that. This particular article
refers to a find in Michoacan, which is out of my
field of specialty (I work at Teotihuacan). Can
anybody give me some references about this type of
thing being in a strong enough context to "prove" (and
of course, I use that term lightly in conjunction with
archaeology) it truly happened somewhere?
The idea is interesting and certainly not out of the
question, but I simply don't remember ever hearing
anything like that.
Thanks for indulging me,
Kim Goldsmith
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 03:05:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "D. M. Urquidi" <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Regarding Mike Ruggeri's Post About Teeth
To: kim Goldsmith <kiminmexico at yahoo.com>, aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <20060618100554.70285.qmail at web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Kim and all:
Since animals usually have a wider tooth base due to their size and tearing ability, it is very unlikely that the use of these teeth were for people who were alive. It would make a great "miracle" show however, to view the skull later (dried out) to show that the animal associated with this person imerged after his/her death.
Except for actual implants for obvious cavities, the filing of teeth (decoratively at the bottoms) would logically be after death when the skull no longer has saliva in the mouth. Once the outer enamel is breeched there is very little to stop cavities from taking hold, since saliva and food particles would be a detriment for a live person. . . . . i.e. the betel leaves used in the islands are narcotic and would prevent the pain that goes with cavities.
Dea
kim Goldsmith <kiminmexico at yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi All! The article about the teeth that were filed
down so as to accomodate what would have essentially
been an "animal denture" (unless I read it
incorrectly) was interesting, but I am wondering if
they actually found some animal teeth near the
person's mouth area?
The article states that this practice is common in
later times with some Maya, but I don't ever remember
hearing something like that. This particular article
refers to a find in Michoacan, which is out of my
field of specialty (I work at Teotihuacan). Can
anybody give me some references about this type of
thing being in a strong enough context to "prove" (and
of course, I use that term lightly in conjunction with
archaeology) it truly happened somewhere?
The idea is interesting and certainly not out of the
question, but I simply don't remember ever hearing
anything like that.
Thanks for indulging me,
Kim Goldsmith
__________________________________________________
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D. M. Urquidi
dmu Ink
P.O. Box 49485
Austin, Texas 78765-49485
http://www.mayalords.org <http://www.mayalords.org/>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
---------------------------------
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Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 07:18:56 -0400
From: "Justin Kerr" <mayavase at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: [Aztlan] Regarding Mike Ruggeri's Post About Teeth
To: "'kim Goldsmith'" <kiminmexico at yahoo.com>,
<aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <002c01c692c8$fdd11390$6701a8c0 at justnew>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Dr. Guillermo Mata of Guatemala did the most extensive research on Maya
tooth filing and other dental practices. I do not recall his mentioning
teeth filed down to be replaced with an animal appliance. A quick look
through the FAMSI bibliography finds nothing on the subject either.
Justin Kerr
-----Original Message-----
From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
On Behalf Of kim Goldsmith
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 8:22 PM
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Subject: [Aztlan] Regarding Mike Ruggeri's Post About Teeth
Hi All! The article about the teeth that were filed
down so as to accomodate what would have essentially
been an "animal denture" (unless I read it
incorrectly) was interesting, but I am wondering if
they actually found some animal teeth near the
person's mouth area?
The article states that this practice is common in
later times with some Maya, but I don't ever remember
hearing something like that. This particular article
refers to a find in Michoacan, which is out of my
field of specialty (I work at Teotihuacan). Can
anybody give me some references about this type of
thing being in a strong enough context to "prove" (and
of course, I use that term lightly in conjunction with
archaeology) it truly happened somewhere?
The idea is interesting and certainly not out of the
question, but I simply don't remember ever hearing
anything like that.
Thanks for indulging me,
Kim Goldsmith
__________________________________________________
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 11:00:41 -0500
From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] Maya exhibit opens at the Met
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <D013D2A8-5B29-4A04-9142-1099FC58C375 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Metropolitan Opens Treasures of Sacred Maya Kings
NEW YORK.-Treasures of Sacred Maya Kings - opening at The
Metropolitan Museum of Art today, on June 13, 2006 - will explore the
growth of the concept of divine kingship among ancient Maya peoples.
Featuring some 150 objects - from large-scale relief sculpture in
stone to small precious pieces of worked jade - the exhibition will
display the grandiose ambitions of earthly rulers when they
transformed themselves into gods. Dating principally from 200 B.C. to
600 A.D., the works in the exhibition are lent primarily from public
collections in Mexico, Guatemala, and Honduras, as well as from
collections in Europe and the United States. Emphasis will be placed
on recently excavated objects that will be on view for the first time
in the United States. Notable among them are pieces from the renowned
Maya sites of Calakmul in Mexico, Tikal in Guatemala, and Copan in
Honduras. Maya jade objects discovered in tombs in the famous Pyramid
of the Moon at Teotihuacan - the contemporary but distant central
Mexican city - will also be included.
The exhibition was organized by the Los Angeles County Museum of Art.
The national tour is sponsored by Televisa. In New York, the
exhibition is supported by The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation.
Additional support is provided by the Friends of the Department of
the Arts of Africa, Oceania, and the Americas. The exhibition is also
made possible in part by generous grants from the National Endowment
for the Humanities and by the National Endowment for the Arts.
Based on an inherited tradition for interaction between royalty and
supernatural powers, Maya kings of the early centuries of the Common
Era portrayed themselves in the roles and costumes of deities and
elaborated sacred imagery on all manner of works of art. The recent
increase in the scholarship on the ancient Maya allows for a much
more detailed examination of this important period in their history.
At a time when the hereditary rulers of city-states were sustained by
the prosperity gained by maize agriculture, they surrounded
themselves with a cultivated nobility. They held forth in courts that
included artists, architects, scribes, astronomers, diviners,
courtiers, and servants of all sorts. The titles of many a Maya king,
or "Lord" (ajaw), his wife, his subordinates, and his enemies are
known today, as are details of his lives, his times, and his treasures.
In the Exhibition - The exhibition will include stone sculpture in a
number of forms, from large commemorative monuments, or stelas, to
small precious works of jade, a material of infinite value to all
ancient Mesoamerican peoples, and one principally used for the
fabrication of personal ornaments. Ceramic sculpture will have a
solid presence in the exhibition, appearing in a variety of shapes
and encompassing numerous lidded vessels of diverse sorts - large
cache vessels often embellished with complex iconographic schemes and/
or further covered with stuccoed surfaces, and smaller, more
intimately scaled examples reproducing natural forms. Ceramic censers
in human form, bowls with complex relief images, and vessels in the
shapes of deities are included. Bone and shell were used widely in
ancient times for everything from object handles to personal
ornaments, examples of which will be on view. Works in jade will also
be well represented. Invariably green in color, Maya jade objects are
in the form of celts, beads, plaques, pendants, and three-dimensional
sculpture, their hard and polishable surfaces decorated with delicate
incised patterns, low relief images, hieroglyphic inscriptions, and
even narrative scenes.
Depictions of Maya Lords - Maya lords themselves will be represented
in the exhibition. They appear on stone sculpture as standing profile
figures, elegantly arrayed as deities. The 76-inch-tall granite
relief, a commemorative monument known as Stela 11(Museo Nacional de
Arqueología y Etnología, Guatemala City) from the highland site of
Kaminaljuyu (Guatemala), is one of the earliest such Maya images,
dating to the last centuries of the first millennium B.C. This well-
preserved sculpture illustrates the necessary elaborateness of
costume and accoutrements required for the kingly role in ritual
performance. Wearing a wide belt with a great down-curving beaked
profile at the center, the figure supports a stacked helmet mask with
the same profiles. The great beak is associated with a divinity known
rather prosaically to modern scholars as the Principal Bird Deity. He
is presented in Maya myth as a brilliant emanation of early light, or
sun. The transformed king in his deity regalia is placed between the
earth symbol below his feet and the bird of the heavens at the top of
the stela. The Kaminaljuyu lord is portrayed as the universal bridge
between the heavens and earth.
Kingly images in other materials will also be included, such as the
Censer with Seated King (The Metropolitan Museum of Art), the fourth-
to-fifth-century ceramic sculpture in a shape of a cross-legged lord
holding a small tray of offerings out in front of him. The rising of
smoke from such censers honored deified ancestors in rituals.
Funerary masks encrusted with jade are considered the last
"portraits." A Funerary Mask (Museo Histórico Fuerte de San Miguel,
Campeche) from Calakmul displays the type. Calakmul, in the interior
lowlands of the Mexican state of Campeche, was a powerful Maya city
from the first to the ninth century.
Source of Maya Traditions - One section of the exhibition will be
devoted to the source of the inherited traditions upon which the Maya
kings elaborated. In the early first millennium B.C., the Olmec
peoples of the Mexican Gulf Coast were the first to portray their
rulers as divinities. Olmec imagery is presented as background to the
Maya works in the exhibition.
Exhibition Catalogue and Tour - The exhibition is accompanied by the
catalogue Lords of Creation: The Origins of Sacred Maya Kingship.
The exhibition was on view at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art
and is currently at the Dallas Museum of Art (February 12 - May 7,
2006). It will open at the Metropolitan Museum on June 13, 2006.
Organization Credit - The exhibition was organized by Virginia M.
Fields, Curator of Pre-Columbian Art, Los Angeles County Museum of
Art, with Dorie Reents-Budet of the National Museum of Natural
History, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C. In New York,
Treasures of Sacred Maya Kings will be organized by Julie Jones,
Curator in Charge of the Department of the Arts of Africa, Oceania,
and the Americas at the Metropolitan Museum.
Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and
Lectures
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html
------------------------------
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