[Aztlan] Popol vuh

Fri Oct 6 07:38:07 CDT 2006

In light of the discoveries at San Bartolo, and the fact that the Hero Twins
as ball players were painted on the walls of a temple in the Mundo Perdido
of Tikal, and that so many early Classic buildings bear the mask of the
Principal Bird Deity (Itzam Yeh), the religious motifs of the Maya were in
place for a very long time. Although the Quiche version of the story has the
Hero Twins as conquerors of Vucub Caquix, The Izapa image presents a dilemma
in that we cannot be sure of who is the victor in that scene. Given the fact
that Early Classic rulers adopted the mask of Itzam Yeh as a symbol of
power, it may be that by the time the Quiche recorded the tale, it may have
become a revisionist version. From the Early Classic ceramic images
(K3105a-e) we also cannot be sure who the victor is in that the bird is
never shown destroyed. The later images as well only show the shooting
(K1226) but never a dead bird. An image of the shooting of the bird (K4546)
shows the blowgun split so the pellet may go astray and merely wound the
bird as the Quiche story has it. 
I believe that we need more research and certainly more images would help.
Justin Kerr      

-----Original Message-----
From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
On Behalf Of Harold H. Green
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 12:23 AM
To: John Major Jenkins
Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Popol vuh

Timothy B. Laughton (University of Essex) devotes a substantial portion
of his 1997 dissertation, entitled "Sculpture on the Threshhold: the 
Iconography
of Izapa and Its Relationship to that of the Maya," to demonstrating 
that the
stelae of Group A "portray an early version of the myths of the 
colonial era Quiche
book, the Popol Vuh."  As he states in his Abstract, "this thesis 
proposes that the
monuments at Izapa may be read as a cohesive narrative, and that this 
is one of the
earliest and most comprehensive manifestations of the myths of the 
later Maya book,
the Popol Vuh."

Dr. Laughton's dissertation is not available through UMI, and it is 
hard to find in
US libraries. But it is available through the British Library's 
Document Supply
Centre, accessible at the British Library's website.

Hal Green

On Oct 5, 2006, at 1:34 PM, John Major Jenkins wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'd also add, for those interested in the astronomical content of Maya
> mythology, that Dennis Tedlock's 1985 translation --- updated in '96 
> ---
> went far beyond translation work to identify astronomical references in
> the Popol Vuh. For example, the dark-rift in the Milky Way is the 
> "Black
> Road" that spoke to the Hero Twins ---the road to the underworld that
> they and their father had to pass through. Similarly, the Crossroads in
> the Popol Vuh is the cross formed by the Milky Way and the ecliptic, 
> and
> is clearly the one at this dark-rift near Sagittarius, rather than the
> one in Gemini above Orion emphasized in Linda Schele's work.
> Christensen's translation is good but lacks pointers to astronomy. For
> more in depth treatment concerning the wider context of what the Popol
> Vuh is, one should study Dennis Tedlock's recent Rabinal Achi book as
> well as Ruud van Akkeren's Place of the Lord's Daughter.
>
> While on this topic, can anyone clarify how the carved monuments of
> Izapa fit into this picture? They are dated to 400 BC - 50 AD yet
> clearly contain Hero Twins, First Father, and Seven Macaw actions. 
> Stela
> 25, for example, is a clear depiction of Seven Macaw in his tree 
> holding
> the arm of Hunahpu --- an episode recorded in the 1550s in the Popol
> Vuh. This image has also been associated with the Classic Period vase
> showing Hunahpu shooting, with his blowgun, at Seven Macaw in the tree.
>
>
>
> John Major Jenkins
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org
> [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Travis Nygard
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 1:40 PM
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Aztlan] Popol vuh
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Travis Nygard <tnygard at gmail.com>
> Date: Oct 5, 2006 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Popol vuh
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>
>
> Brasseur de Bourbourg's French edition is fully downloadable in google
> books.  As you probably know, google is scanning the public domain
> books at the U of CA, Harvard, U of MI, NY Public, Oxford, Stanford,
> and the U Complutense.  It is already a good resource, and they are
> scanning more every day.
>
> http://books.google.com
> Click "Full view books."
>
> Travis
>
> --------
>
> Title:
>         Popol vuyh. Le livre sacré et les mythes de l'antiquité
> américaine,
> avec les livres héröiques et historiques de Quichés ...
> Publisher:
>
> Author(s):
>         Brasseur de Bourbourg
> Publication Date:
>         1861
> Pages:
>         367
>
> On 10/3/06, Randa Marhenke <randa at armory.com> wrote:
>> Whoever it was that wanted a copy of the Popol vuh manuscript, please
> write
>> me--I may be able to help.
>>
>> Randa
>> _______________________________________________
>> Aztlan mailing list
>> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>>
>
>
> --
> ---
>
> Travis Nygard
> ten2 at pitt.edu
> tnygard at gmail.com
>
>
> -- 
> ---
>
> Travis Nygard
> ten2 at pitt.edu
> tnygard at gmail.com
>
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