[Aztlan] Popol vuh

[John Major Jenkins]

Justin,
Some of the carved monuments from Izapa date to 250 BC or even earlier,
and thus contemporary with San Bartolo. 
 
There are several monuments at Izapa that depict the fall of Seven Macaw
at the hands of a solar deity, who is likely one of the Hero Twins. For
example, the central monument (Stela 4) in the main line of five Group A
monuments that are orientated to Tacana volcano (where the Big Dipper
rises and falls), depicts a Hero Twin striking the bird deity who is in
a falling position. Across the plaza, Stela 2 depicts both Hero Twins
attending the downward fall of the bird deity. In the Group F ballcourt,
Stela 60 depicts a ballplayer / Hero Twin standing over a demised bird
deity. Orientational contexts implicate the northern Big Dipper. Twelve
years ago I did line drawings of all the relevant Izapan monuments; they
are published in my 1998 book Maya Cosmogenesis 2012. Some of the
monuments (e.g., Stelae 25 and 60) are also illustrated in my online
essays: 
 
http://www.alignment2012.com/izapa.html and
http://www.alignment2012.com/ballcourt-schematic-and-description.html 
 
It is probably true, as you note, that the Izapan version of the
Creation myth is an earlier version of what we have in the Popol Vuh.
However, a great deal concerning the Izapan version can be reconstructed
based on an interdisciplinary approach to the evidence --- with the
horizon orientations of Izapa's stelae groups and the individual
monuments providing a key to understanding the iconographic content, and
thus the mythological storyline. 
 
John Major Jenkins
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Kerr [mailto:mayavase at verizon.net] 
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 6:38 AM
To: 'Harold H. Green'; 'John Major Jenkins'
Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Subject: RE: [Aztlan] Popol vuh
 
In light of the discoveries at San Bartolo, and the fact that the Hero
Twins
as ball players were painted on the walls of a temple in the Mundo
Perdido
of Tikal, and that so many early Classic buildings bear the mask of the
Principal Bird Deity (Itzam Yeh), the religious motifs of the Maya were
in
place for a very long time. Although the Quiche version of the story has
the
Hero Twins as conquerors of Vucub Caquix, The Izapa image presents a
dilemma
in that we cannot be sure of who is the victor in that scene. Given the
fact
that Early Classic rulers adopted the mask of Itzam Yeh as a symbol of
power, it may be that by the time the Quiche recorded the tale, it may
have
become a revisionist version. From the Early Classic ceramic images
(K3105a-e) we also cannot be sure who the victor is in that the bird is
never shown destroyed. The later images as well only show the shooting
(K1226) but never a dead bird. An image of the shooting of the bird
(K4546)
shows the blowgun split so the pellet may go astray and merely wound the
bird as the Quiche story has it. 
I believe that we need more research and certainly more images would
help.
Justin Kerr      
 
-----Original Message-----
From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org
[mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
On Behalf Of Harold H. Green
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 12:23 AM
To: John Major Jenkins
Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Popol vuh
 
Timothy B. Laughton (University of Essex) devotes a substantial portion
of his 1997 dissertation, entitled "Sculpture on the Threshhold: the 
Iconography
of Izapa and Its Relationship to that of the Maya," to demonstrating 
that the
stelae of Group A "portray an early version of the myths of the 
colonial era Quiche
book, the Popol Vuh."  As he states in his Abstract, "this thesis 
proposes that the
monuments at Izapa may be read as a cohesive narrative, and that this 
is one of the
earliest and most comprehensive manifestations of the myths of the 
later Maya book,
the Popol Vuh."
 
Dr. Laughton's dissertation is not available through UMI, and it is 
hard to find in
US libraries. But it is available through the British Library's 
Document Supply
Centre, accessible at the British Library's website.
 
Hal Green
 
 
On Oct 5, 2006, at 1:34 PM, John Major Jenkins wrote:
 
> Hi,
>
> I'd also add, for those interested in the astronomical content of Maya
> mythology, that Dennis Tedlock's 1985 translation --- updated in '96 
> ---
> went far beyond translation work to identify astronomical references
in
> the Popol Vuh. For example, the dark-rift in the Milky Way is the 
> "Black
> Road" that spoke to the Hero Twins ---the road to the underworld that
> they and their father had to pass through. Similarly, the Crossroads
in
> the Popol Vuh is the cross formed by the Milky Way and the ecliptic, 
> and
> is clearly the one at this dark-rift near Sagittarius, rather than the
> one in Gemini above Orion emphasized in Linda Schele's work.
> Christensen's translation is good but lacks pointers to astronomy. For
> more in depth treatment concerning the wider context of what the Popol
> Vuh is, one should study Dennis Tedlock's recent Rabinal Achi book as
> well as Ruud van Akkeren's Place of the Lord's Daughter.
>
> While on this topic, can anyone clarify how the carved monuments of
> Izapa fit into this picture? They are dated to 400 BC - 50 AD yet
> clearly contain Hero Twins, First Father, and Seven Macaw actions. 
> Stela
> 25, for example, is a clear depiction of Seven Macaw in his tree 
> holding
> the arm of Hunahpu --- an episode recorded in the 1550s in the Popol
> Vuh. This image has also been associated with the Classic Period vase
> showing Hunahpu shooting, with his blowgun, at Seven Macaw in the
tree.
>
> John Major Jenkins
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org
> [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Travis Nygard
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 1:40 PM
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: [Aztlan] Popol vuh
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Travis Nygard <tnygard at gmail.com>
> Date: Oct 5, 2006 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Popol vuh
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>
>
> Brasseur de Bourbourg's French edition is fully downloadable in google
> books.  As you probably know, google is scanning the public domain
> books at the U of CA, Harvard, U of MI, NY Public, Oxford, Stanford,
> and the U Complutense.  It is already a good resource, and they are
> scanning more every day.
>
> http://books.google.com
> Click "Full view books."
>
> Travis
>
> --------
>
> Title:
>         Popol vuyh. Le livre sacré et les mythes de l'antiquité
> américaine,
> avec les livres héröiques et historiques de Quichés ...
> Publisher:
>
> Author(s):
>         Brasseur de Bourbourg
> Publication Date:
>         1861
> Pages:
>         367
>
> On 10/3/06, Randa Marhenke <randa at armory.com> wrote:
>> Whoever it was that wanted a copy of the Popol vuh manuscript, please
> write
>> me--I may be able to help.
>>
>> Randa