From kat at hallofmaat.com Sun Apr 1 11:01:22 2007 From: kat at hallofmaat.com (Katherine Reece) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 10:01:22 -0600 Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux References: <460F295A.4050302@chicanoforums.com> Message-ID: <038301c77477$0d774900$6401a8c0@kat> She always said that it was the Spanish who invented the lie that Moctezuma thought Cortez was a god. Moreover, that Quetzalcoatl was "white" as in looking at the bright son. But she also said he was yellow in the same respect. http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=90 This is an article that we've reproduced (with permission) at my site. The article is "Burying the White Gods" by Camilla Townsend, hopefully it will add to the Quetaztcoatl discussion here. Kat Reece Owner / Head Moderator In the Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com Amun Owner / Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amun Contributing author to the book "Archaeological Fantasies: How pseudoarchaeology misrepresents the past and misleads the public" http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=97 Kat's Personal Page http://www.katherinereece.com/ From birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 1 11:43:16 2007 From: birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com (jeremy smith) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 09:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] collander-type ceramic vessel Message-ID: <605214.91446.qm@web60121.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Everybody, Jumping back to the possible uses of a collander ceramic vessel, seems like the Maya may have made a corn wine like the tesguino of the Tarahumara. Nikolai Grube (2001;32) wrote in a book titled "Maya - Divine Kings of the Rain Forest": "Europeans first encountered cacao in the year 1502, when Columbus on his fourth journey to the Gulf of Honduras, came across a large Maya trading canoe that measured over 40 m (131 ft.) in length, if the story recounted by his son Ferdinand is to be believed. Not only was the canoe laiden with metates (or grinding stones), copper items, fabrics and vessels, it also contained roots and grains, and a type of wine made from maize." David --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. From drd30 at columbia.edu Sun Apr 1 11:56:52 2007 From: drd30 at columbia.edu (Dan) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 12:56:52 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux In-Reply-To: <000901c7740a$a88b1290$03095b42@marthadf530wyg> Message-ID: I'm struck by the fact that so much recent literature, and this discussion, tends toward polarization on the question of the Quetzalcoatl-Cortes relationship---those starting with an uncritical read of Sahagun's Book 12 assertion that Moctezuma believed in and acted on the Q-C connection, versus those who (with Lockhart, Gillespie and others) suggest that the "Caxtilteca" were seen as merely another alteptl group and that the Q-C association is just a post-Conquest imposition. Either view, in isolation, seems a little too rigid and too condescending---insisting on an either/or interpretation of behavior that was likely susceptible to multiple motivations and impulses. As Martha here touches on, the reality must almost certainly have reflected the sophistication and complexity of Nahua perspectives---across the gamut from hard-headed real-politik to absurd superstitions. Did Moctezuma believe he was facing Quetzalcoatl? Who knows, but don't forget to ask, "when?" An argument that the Mexica believed they were still battling deities after the Spanish sojurn in Tenochtitlan in 1519-20 assumes the Mexica were idiots---whatever currency any possible Cortes-Quetzalcoatl connection MIGHT have had when the Spaniards were still fighting mosquitoes on Veracruz beaches in early 1519, would have rapidly dissolved with subsequent contact. But what about those first weeks, when Mexica leadership was making crucial decisions about how to respond to the Spaniards? Now, it is possible that GWB got born again solely to help his Texas political prospects, and very possible that Tenocha heavyweights used religion solely as a cynical mechanism of social control. But state religion, even when used opportunistically, tends to acquire a life of its own, and it's hard to believe that Moctezuma and his advisors would have excluded religious explanatations of Castilian origins. These people, Spaniards very much included, WERE inclined to see the hand of supernatural agency everywhere. And, with all due respect to the just-another-altepetl view, there would seem to have been (to Nahua eyes) some strikingly unique characteristics---including some very frightening aspects---about the Castilian newcomers. In light of how routinely religion was employed to explain, predict and influence the behavior of the natural world and of people, why expect otherwise in Mexica approaches to sizing up the Castilians? And wasn't Q part of the pantheon pre-Conquest deities (in varying degrees of prominence depending on area), and is there really no basis for some version of a pre-Conquest Quetzalcoatl "return" myth, curious calendrical connections, and the origins in the East? My guess is that there was a pretty lively debate in Tenochtitlan among those privvy to reports from the coast as to who these people were. And ---especially in light of Sahagun and the richness of detail provided (remember those outfits that were prepared as gifts for Cortes?)---the possibility of the Castilians as gods, and of the Quetzalcoatl connection in particular, would have been a logical part of that debate. Dan Deneen Norwich, VT > -----Original Message----- > From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org > [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]On Behalf Of martha noyes > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 11:06 PM > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux > > > Aloha all > > To a like matter, the identification of a European explorer with > a deity prophesied to return, Marshall Sahlins's "How Natives > Think" (University of Chicago Press) makes a fair argument that > yes, there was recognition of a prophecy fulfilled, but no, not > in the way Europeans understood/understand it. Sahlins's point > is that deities, at least major deities, have more than one form > or appearance, and that just as a priest or chief "stands for" a > deity at certain times, so, too may an outsider/foreigner, just > as an animal, celestial phenomenon, or a geographical element > does. This "standing for" a deity is sometimes, maybe often, > restricted to a specific circumstance - a ritual period or > function - after which circumstance the stand-in is again a mortal. > > Some cultures are quite comfortable with a "both/and" view. > > my two cents > Martha > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > From aztlandave at yahoo.com Sun Apr 1 12:59:26 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 10:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <134021.78880.qm@web37006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Estimados Listeros, While I deeply respect the comments by Dan , I would propose that the arguments made by Gillespie and others are a bit more nuanced than he implies. Rather than a polarized view of "Quetzalcoatl as Cortez" as a myth vs. history, I read Gillespie's discussion as a fascinating view into how history is constructed in the first place. Her focus is not actually the Q-C connection, but the history of king lists (both Toltec and Aztec). She takes a very hard look at the king lists and notes how history must be viewed as constructed (rather than simply recorded). This has been driven home to me by the recent work at Mayapan and Chichen Itza, where archaeological excavations have shown that the ethnohistorical accounts cannot be taken at face value. We must examine why certain perspectives were widely accepted, and when they were adopted as "history". Many Maya Archaeologists working at Yucatecan sites currently believe that Chichen Itza was never overrun by the Toltecs, and that Mayapan was not controlled in its final days by Aztec garrisons (despite the clear passages in Spanish and Maya texts that tell us otherwise). Similarly, the list of Toltec kings, including the kingly manifestation of Quetzalcoatl (constructed by the Aztecs centuries later), may also be a conflated history, as might the Q-C connection. However, none of this implies that the Aztec kings and later historians NEVER made the hypothetical connection between Quetzalcoatl and Cortez. As Dan stated, these theories may have crept up during various stages of the conquest (or even post-conquest). History is not immutable. It is based within a constant dialogue with the present. I?d love to hear more thoughts on this topic. It (combined with other ethnohistorical mysteries, such as the chronologies of Mayapan and Chichen Itza) strike to the core of what different disciplines can bring to the table (archaeology, history, ethnohistory, cultural anthropology, etc. etc.). Aztlan is a perfect format to hear all sides of the story. Saludos, -Dave --- Dan wrote: > I'm struck by the fact that so much recent > literature, and this discussion, > tends toward polarization on the question of the > Quetzalcoatl-Cortes > relationship---those starting with an uncritical > read of Sahagun's Book 12 > assertion that Moctezuma believed in and acted on > the Q-C connection, versus > those who (with Lockhart, Gillespie and others) > suggest that the > "Caxtilteca" were seen as merely another alteptl > group and that the Q-C > association is just a post-Conquest imposition. > Either view, in isolation, > seems a little too rigid and too > condescending---insisting on an either/or > interpretation of behavior that was likely > susceptible to multiple > motivations and impulses . ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu Sun Apr 1 14:02:23 2007 From: Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu (Sam Edgerton) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 15:02:23 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Listeros: The most respected proponent of the C as Q legend was the late H.B.Nicholson, I am trying to locate a copy of his "The Return of Quetzalcoatl: Did it Play a Role in the Conquest of Mexico?" (Labrynthos, 2001) from which to re-present some of his arguments. In any case, I believe {from personal conversations with Nick that he would have seconded many of Dave Hixson's comments about the universal human urge to launder history in favor of local politics ("History is not immutable. It is based within a constant dialogue with the present"), and as Dan Deneen reminded, "these [C as Q] theories may have crept up during various stages of the conquest (or even post-conquest)." I have recently read a remarkable book relevant to this thread: "Kingship" by Francis Oakley (Blackwell, 2006) which, even though it concentrates on the history of "cosmic kingship" in the West from ancient classic times through the Christian era, reveals how closely the concept was thoroughly associated with divinity in whatever form everywhere in the pre-modern world including pre-conquest Mesoamerica. He includes a brief chapter on the latter and even has as the cover illustration for the whole book, the famous bust of Janaab Pakal I as Young Maize God (as photographed by Jorge Perez de Lara!). Sam Edgerton From michaelruggeri at mac.com Sun Apr 1 14:22:28 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 14:22:28 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Message-ID: Listeros, When Sam first mentioned this book I went to Amazon and Powell's books to order it and they did not have it but I found it at Abe's Books and ordered it there. They may have more copies if any of you want a copy. Mike Ruggeri On Apr 1, 2007, at 2:02 PM, Sam Edgerton wrote: > Listeros: The most respected proponent of the C as Q legend was the > late > H.B.Nicholson, I am trying to locate a copy of his > "The Return of Quetzalcoatl: Did it Play a Role in the Conquest of > Mexico?" > (Labrynthos, 2001) from which to re-present some of his arguments. > In any > case, I believe {from personal conversations with Nick that he > would have > seconded many of Dave Hixson's comments about the universal human > urge to > launder history in favor of local politics ("History is not > immutable. It > is based within a constant dialogue with the present"), and as Dan > Deneen > reminded, "these [C as Q] theories may have crept up during > various stages of the conquest (or even post-conquest)." > I have recently read a remarkable book relevant to this thread: > "Kingship" > by Francis Oakley (Blackwell, 2006) which, even though it > concentrates on > the history of "cosmic kingship" in the West from ancient classic > times > through the Christian era, reveals how closely the concept was > thoroughly > associated with divinity in whatever form everywhere in the pre-modern > world including pre-conquest Mesoamerica. He includes a brief > chapter on > the latter and even has as the cover illustration for the whole > book, the > famous bust of Janaab Pakal I as Young Maize God (as photographed > by Jorge > Perez de Lara!). > Sam Edgerton > From michaelruggeri at mac.com Sun Apr 1 17:07:48 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 17:07:48 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] MORE APRIL ANCIENT AMERICA LECTURES Message-ID: April 18, 8:00-9:30 PM Institute of Maya Studies Lecture ?Sacred Space, Sacred Time: Ritual and Procession in Postclassic Maya Codices and Murals? One of the primary themes of the art and texts produced during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries in the northern Maya lowlands involves rituals that delimit sacred space ? the four world directions plus the center, or features of the natural and built environment that represent stopping points during ritual circuits of the landscape. The passage of time is also a key feature of these images and texts that is often expressed metaphorically by references to walking along a road or the stopping of the traveler?s footsteps at significant moments during the journey. In this presentation, Gabrielle Vail examines a selection of almanacs from the Maya codices and scenes from murals painted at Tulum and Santa Rita that exemplify conceptions of time and space within the context of Postclassic Maya cosmology and worldview. Dr. Gabrielle Vail received her B.A. from New College of Florida and her M.A. and Ph.D. from Tulane University. She has research appointments at New College of Florida in Sarasota and the Middle American Research Institute at Tulane and is director of the Florida Institute for Hieroglyphic Research in Palmetto, FL. Her research focuses on the Maya codices, with an emphasis on their ritual content and hieroglyphic texts. With funding from NEH, she and Christine Hern?ndez are completing a database and commentary of the Maya codices, available on-line at www.mayacodices.org. Vail is the co-editor of four volumes, including The Madrid Codex: New Approaches to Understanding an Ancient Maya Manuscript (with Anthony Aveni; UP of Colorado, 2004) and The Bricker Almanac: A Festschrift in Honor of Harvey and Victoria Bricker (published by Human Mosaic, Tulane University, 2006). She has published over twenty articles and book chapters on the Maya codices and a monograph entitled The Archaeology of Coastal Belize (British Archaeological Reports, Oxford, 1988). She leads a glyph study group at New College and has taught hieroglyphic workshops since 1992. Miami Museum of Science, 3280 South Miami Avenue, across from Vizcaya, Maya Hotline: 305-235-1192 http://mayastudies.org _____ April 25, 8:00-9:30 PM Institute of Maya Studies Lecture ?A Overview of the Maya and a Visit to Tulum? with narration by Jim Reed. Recently, Jim Reed, was program leader and guide on a Carnival Cruise to the Yucat?n. He prepared this educational video to show onboard to help prepare the 52 folks who eventually made their way to the Maya site of Tulum. Come and view this informative video, shown for the first time ? not in international waters! Jim Reed is an avid Maya aficionado, current editor of the Institute of Maya Studies newsletter and past president of the Institute (2000). Among his other endeavors and interests, he also leads group tours to the Mayalands. To join in on a Maya adventure to Copan and the Guatemalan Highlands, July 28 to August 5, along with John Major Jenkins, author of Maya Cosmogenisis 2012, call 404-680-1644 for more details. Miami Museum of Science, 3280 South Miami Avenue, across from Vizcaya, Maya Hotline: 305-235-1192 http://mayastudies.org Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html From jules at cafecancun.com Sun Apr 1 18:28:21 2007 From: jules at cafecancun.com (Jules Siegel) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 18:28:21 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Message-ID: <46104015.7090405@cafecancun.com> michael ruggeri wrote: > Listeros, > > When Sam first mentioned this book I went to Amazon and Powell's > books to order it and they did not have it but I found it at Abe's > Books and ordered it there. They may have more copies if any of you > want a copy. > > Mike Ruggeri > > Are you sure you ordered "The Return of Quetzalcoatl: Did it Play a Role in the Conquest of Mexico?" by H. B. Nicholson I searched for it yesterday on abebooks.com and came up only with "The Return of Quetzalcoatl" by David Pinchbeck, which is a novel. Searching the Web, I found "Nicholson, H. B. The return of Quetzalcoatl: did it play a role in the Conquest of Mexico?" . --. Lancaster, Calif.: Labyrinthos, 2001. 22 p. F 1221 L2 C647, which is a listing in a Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico bibliography -- http://www.201.122.2.242/biblioteca/boletines/2006/BNA_0602.pdf or *http://tinyurl.com/3947gt* -- JULES SIEGEL Apdo. 1764, 77501-Cancun, Q. Roo, Mexico http://www.cafecancun.com/bookarts Newsroom-l, news and issues for journalists http://www.newsroom-l.net/ From marcemusic at yahoo.com Sun Apr 1 16:22:11 2007 From: marcemusic at yahoo.com (Marcelo Donadello) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 18:22:11 -0300 (ART) Subject: [Aztlan] 1491, Quetzalcoatl and reality In-Reply-To: <134021.78880.qm@web37006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <940962.40185.qm@web55506.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Listeros Evidentemente es una discusion que se basa en la bibliograf?a. Pero es de tener en cuenta que Cortes estaba compelido por su propia religiosidad a no hacer demasiado alarde de una posible identificacion "Q-C" en sus comunicaciones con el rey de Espa?a. Por otro lado si es cierto que para el mundo americano prehispanico todo estaba un poco m?s ligado a lo religioso que en el nuestro, como ha sido en toda civilizacion hasta que se intensific? el papel del dinero y otros agentes de manejo del discurso y el poder, la contracara de esta justificacion de la identificacion Q-C es que la misma explicacion le resta importancia. Cortes era Quetzalcoatl, ok... en la medida y la manera que Moteczuma era Huitzilopotli. Si -quiz?s - era m?s extra?o, m?s sorprendente, era porque ten?a caballos, hierro, p?lvora, etc. Porque era extra?o. Si perd?a iba a ser una extra?a an?cdota en un mundo que estaba y est? lleno de ellas. Ultima: un lector - y aun un escritor, un estudioso - de nuestros dias se asombra del asombro que producian los caballos, y no de los caballos, y en eso se aleja de la civilizacion que pretende estar estudiando o describiendo; cuando se asombra de la religion como parte de toda la concepcion del mundo, entiende y explica las cosas desde una perspectiva totalmente equivocada. Las "verdades" religiosas de una epoca y un lugar son tan verdades como que el dinero es dinero y no papel (aqui y ahora). mis "dos centavos" ;) Marcelo Donadello --------------------------------- Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?. Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). Probalo ya! From chunchucmil at yahoo.com Mon Apr 2 08:38:32 2007 From: chunchucmil at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 06:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Message-ID: <896446.80513.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I would like to point out that this topic (Aztec Ethnohistory and Quetzalcoatl) has been a popular one for many years on Aztlan, as can be seen from the two submissions by Brant Gardner to the original "Aztlan E-Journal" hosted by John Hoopes. http://web.ku.edu/~hoopes/aztlan/ The papers contained on this website are all excellent resources. -Dave ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From aztlandave at yahoo.com Mon Apr 2 14:33:39 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] T528 as "stone" In-Reply-To: <896446.80513.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <883245.88281.qm@web37011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I could look this up in my library, but I'm a bit busy with some other Aztlan/FAMSI issues at the moment... Would anyone out there mind outlining how the T528 glyph came to be translated as "tun" (stone)? This specific question arose during some off-list discussions involving fellow listeros, so I'm sure they'd appreciate any response (I can forward the answers if folks would rather respond to me directly). Many thanks, -Dave ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From gregory_sandor at hotmail.com Mon Apr 2 18:47:36 2007 From: gregory_sandor at hotmail.com (Greg Sandor) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 18:47:36 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Templo Mayor dedication date? References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Message-ID: Is it known on what date the 1487 dedication of the final phase of the Templo Mayor occurred? Was it during the equinox or solstice or some other astronomically significant event? Regards, Greg (614) 517-7204 greg at gregsandor.com http://www.gregsandor.com From Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu Mon Apr 2 18:00:40 2007 From: Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu (Sam Edgerton) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:00:40 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Nicholson's latest conclusions about C-Q Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20070402183400.024178f8@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Hello Listeros, whoever of you are still not bored with the ever recurrent C-Q question. My friend Eloise Quinones-Keber, very close colleague of Nick, at this moment in his very library preparing an obit, has generously read again that evasive 2001 article expressing Nick's latest thoughts on the controversy. I asked her to review the pamphlet, which she so kindly did, and here is her brief analysis: just received "Sam, The first 12 pages of Nick's article summarize the various Q sources. The next 3 contain his "discussion" or conclusion: He says that a review of the primary sources..."contained some mention of the expected return of Topiltzin Q--and often a connection was made between this prophecy and the arrival of the Spaniards." Then he discusses "problems" with the MII to Cortes speech and its reiteration. He again concludes: "In my view, Cort?s report of this speech, even if somewhat garbled, does provide significant support for the pre-Hispanic existence of the belief under consideration. There is no question here of "missionary influence." It seems extremely improbable that it was entirely fabricated by Cortes." He thinks that the obvious missionary-inspired Christian elements in some accounts, which has led some to argue that the "return of Q" tradition was a post-conquest invention, does not, in his view, negate the possibility of its pre-Hispanic existence and its influence on M's conduct. He believes it fits into the cyclical aspect of Meso calendrics, that other deceased Central Mexican leaders were also expected to return, and the coincidence of 1 Acatl (year connected with TQ) = 1519 cannot be ignored. Nevertheless he recognizes the evidence is "thin and "uneven" and as with so many historical questions, it may be impossible to demonstrate conclusively one way or the other." Eloise" Thanks! Sam Edgerton From triplebrook at comcast.net Mon Apr 2 19:48:31 2007 From: triplebrook at comcast.net (Harold H. Green) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 17:48:31 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] "Year bearer" Message-ID: Listeros: Thanks to those who responded to my earlier query regarding "tuun" and "haab'". I now find that I am equally troubled (and the research I have done only adds to my confusion) as to whether "haab'" is restricted to the "chronological unit" of the Long Count (360) and to the 360-day cycle, successive completions of which were recorded on "lakam tuuns" (stelae) as "period endings," or whether it was also actually used by the ancient Maya to refer to the so- called "vague year" of 365 days. As quoted in my earlier post, Thompson states quite clearly that "there was no year of 365 days, but one of 360 days, to the end of which were added the five nameless days" (Thompson 1950:121). Long (1925) took the same position. The term "year bearer" has become entrenched in the literature as referring to the four days of the 260-day cycle that coincide with what is invariably assumed to be the beginning of a new vague year (365-day cycle)(I believe there are three "sets" of "year bearers," the K'an set,", the "Ak'bal set" and the "Ik' set," depending on the time and place being considered). However, these four days of the 260-day cycle could just as easily, just as consistently, refer to the commencement of a new 360-day cycle, if Thompson is correct that "there was no year of 365 days, but one of 360 days, to the end of which were added the five unnamed days." If Thompson is right about 360 vs. 365, and "haab'" means 360 days and cannot be shown to have been used by the ancient Maya to apply also to a period of 365 days, then the so-called "year bearer" would more correctly be referred to as as the "bearer of the haab'" (haab' meaning only 360-day cycle). And indeed, the Books of Chilam Balam refer to "ahcuch haab" which has been translated as "year bearer" (referring to 365-day cycle) when it could be translated as "haab' bearer" (referring to 360-day cycle). There are examples in Classic period hieroglyphic texts, albeit rare, of "anniversaries" being separated by a period of 365 days (e.g. Copan Altar U). But such an "anniversary" ("the annually recurring date of a past event," as we customarily understand the term) need not necessarily refer to the "annual" (365-day) recurrence of an event, but could refer to recurrence of the same haab' day in a 360-day cycle. Indisputably, 365 days were counted (observing the sun over time, it would be rather difficult to ignore those extra five days). The question, though, is whether the period that mattered to the ancient Maya was the 360-day period "to the end of which were added the five nameless days" (and it could also be said "uncounted days"), or whether it was really, verifiably, and indisputably a period of 365-days. As Long stated long ago, the so-called "xma kaba kin" were "days without name," "signifying their unlucky character and their being regarded ... as being outside of and as it were supplementary to the ordinary course of time" (Long 1925). If these questions are not of general interest, I would be happy to receive responses off-list from anyone else who is troubled by "year bearer." Hal Green From Institute at csumb.edu Mon Apr 2 22:43:41 2007 From: Institute at csumb.edu (Archaeology Institute) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 20:43:41 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Templo Mayor dedication date? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> <, > <,> Message-ID: Dear Greg, The dedication of the Templo Mayor (orchestrated by the huey tlatoani Ahuitzotl) "convened on the first day of the festival of Tlacaxipehualiztli [Flaying of People] in 1487...[and]...entailed the simultaneous deployment of some 20 individual groups of executioners, including the huey Tlatoani Ahuitzotl and the Lords Tlacaelel, Nezahualpilli, and Totoquihuatzin, each of whom participated in dispatching captives and letting blood over the course of a four-day harvest of human souls" (Mendoza 2007: 421). The festival of Tlacaxipehualiztli in turn constitutes the second month of the Aztec festival cycle, corresponding with the vernal equinox...or more generally, the Veintena period of 20 days extending from March 5th through 24th. Hope that helps. PS: The reference noted is as follows: Mendoza, Rub?n G. 2007. The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica. In The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by Amerindians, Edited by Richard Chacon and David Dye, pp. 396-439. New York: Springer Press. [Forthcoming, May 2007]. By the way, both the Templo Mayor and the huey Tzompantli of Mexico-Tenochtitlan (discussed in the paper so noted) were each oriented with respect to, and in alignment with, the equinoctial sun. Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology.csumb at gmail.edu Voice: 831-582-3760; Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu; http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ "Science progresses at the rate of one funeral at a time." -Albert Einstein "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -Albert Einstein "He who argues with a fool proves that there are two." -Anonymous Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. From sid.hollander at gmail.com Mon Apr 2 23:09:09 2007 From: sid.hollander at gmail.com (Sid Hollander) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 23:09:09 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] YEAR BEARER Message-ID: <5a64c8ee0704022109t350b06d5n389e2e294bac9f8b@mail.gmail.com> I have never been puzzled by the year bearer (YB) perhaps because I don't quite understand the problem but would love to discuss it with you off line if this thread on calendars gets old before its time. I always thought that the 5 'extra' days were part of the Haab. But assume that it was not. One needs to consider the popular lay descriptions/definitions of the Haab. 18 months of 20 days followed by: 1. a period of 5 days (very popular) 2. a 5-day month (for those who don't want to define Haab as 19 month (18 of 20 and one of 5 days) And I guess what you want is one or the other or are promoting one over the other. To either of these other terms like unlucky, unnamed do the same for me. One thing for sure was that there were regularly different BEARERS . Perhaps they should not be called Year Bearers or Haab Bearers but calling them "Month bearers" may your concerns or convince you that what you call them depends on how you define HAAB (via #1 or #2 above). For it is ALL 19 Months that are first borne by a Tzolkin day and then the next cycle of 19 months that are borne by the Tzolkin day 5 days further down the list. But if you want to call it Haab(360) Bearers you of by necessity have elected to define Habb in terms of #1 above. But if you want to call it Haab(365) Bearers you of by necessity have elected to define Habb in terms of #2 above. -- Sid Hollander Merida, Yucatan From chunchucmil at yahoo.com Tue Apr 3 06:35:55 2007 From: chunchucmil at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] T528 as "stone" In-Reply-To: <883245.88281.qm@web37011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512493.94227.qm@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Please forgive me, but I think I need to re-word my question: In which article (or published "note") was the current reading of T528 as "stone" first outlined? I'm not asking about the elements of the glyph itself (as we have already discussed on Aztlan), but the modern history of decipherment. Is there a core article that "proves" this glyph should be read as "tun/tuun"? I apologize if this has already been mentioned and I simply missed it. Again, this is for a fellow list member, so if you have a clear answer, please post to the list (or I can forward individual responses off-list if you prefer). -Dave --- David Hixson wrote: > I could look this up in my library, but I'm a bit > busy > with some other Aztlan/FAMSI issues at the moment... > > Would anyone out there mind outlining how the T528 > glyph came to be translated as "tun" (stone)? This > specific question arose during some off-list > discussions involving fellow listeros, so I'm sure > they'd appreciate any response (I can forward the > answers if folks would rather respond to me > directly). > > Many thanks, > > -Dave > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From eschele at austin.rr.com Tue Apr 3 08:40:10 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 08:40:10 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] T528 as "stone" References: <512493.94227.qm@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003101c775f5$99ad57a0$6501a8c0@gis> Hi Dave, You might look in Macri and Looper's book "New Catalog of Maya Hieroglyphs Vol 1" to see the history of its decipherment. Start with the reference to "ku" (this sign is also a syllable) on page 216 - 217, but then you can look it up under Ha'ab, Tun or Tuun in the back index on 313. Their indexing takes a while to get use to, but I have found it a great source of information. Elaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hixson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] T528 as "stone" > Please forgive me, but I think I need to re-word my > question: > > In which article (or published "note") was the current > reading of T528 as "stone" first outlined? I'm not > asking about the elements of the glyph itself (as we > have already discussed on Aztlan), but the modern > history of decipherment. Is there a core article that > "proves" this glyph should be read as "tun/tuun"? I > apologize if this has already been mentioned and I > simply missed it. > > Again, this is for a fellow list member, so if you > have a clear answer, please post to the list (or I can > forward individual responses off-list if you prefer). > > -Dave > > --- David Hixson wrote: > > > I could look this up in my library, but I'm a bit > > busy > > with some other Aztlan/FAMSI issues at the moment... > > > > Would anyone out there mind outlining how the T528 > > glyph came to be translated as "tun" (stone)? This > > specific question arose during some off-list > > discussions involving fellow listeros, so I'm sure > > they'd appreciate any response (I can forward the > > answers if folks would rather respond to me > > directly). > > > > Many thanks, > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html > > _______________________________________________ > > Aztlan mailing list > > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ > Don't pick lemons. > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From eschele at austin.rr.com Tue Apr 3 13:21:47 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:21:47 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] The Macri and Looper Catalog Message-ID: <005101c7761c$f1049640$6501a8c0@gis> Listeros, In my last message I told you that the Macri and Looper Catalog contains "the history of decipherment" of particular glyphs. That part of the book is one of the many things that I like about it because it documents all the different interpretations that epigraphers have made about individual signs. It is a testimony to the agonizing struggle that of trying to understand what these ancient people were writing -- a struggle that still goes on even as I write this (even though a majority of it has now been revealed). Elaine From michaelruggeri at mac.com Tue Apr 3 13:47:35 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:47:35 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] CONE SHAPED SKULL AT EL TIGRAL Message-ID: Listeros, As a follow up to the Nazca area site at El Trigal, here is a photo of one of the cranial deformed skull found at the site. The style is like the Maya style in Mesoamerica. http://www.livescience.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/ img_display.php?pic=070328_cabeza_larga_02.jpg&cap=Evidence+of+cranial +deformation+found+at+El+Trigal.+Credit%3A+Proyecto+La+Puntilla-UAB Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/ index.html Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Mound Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ index.html From troycabo at yahoo.com Tue Apr 3 17:16:11 2007 From: troycabo at yahoo.com (mario malo) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Meaning of winner take all. Message-ID: <318449.73138.qm@web53204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Amigos, I found an interesting site regarding Mesoamerican Sports, Music, Culture and History, one that all can enjoy! www.ballgame.org Mario Malo --------------------------------- Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. From chunchucmil at yahoo.com Wed Apr 4 07:22:59 2007 From: chunchucmil at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] T528 as "stone" (David Stuart's Response) In-Reply-To: <512493.94227.qm@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <320174.34873.qm@web35514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The following is a response to my query by David Stuart (forwarded with permission): ----------------- There has been a good deal of confusion about "year" glyphs in general, with T528 often and incorrectly analyzed as either HAAB' or TUUN'. Thompson's insightful identification of the "drought" glyph in the Dresden Codex is a good starting point -- there, both signs are used in spelling the expression k'intunyabil (k'in-tun-y-(h)ab-il). The question has been, though, which sign is TUUN and which is HAAB'? (By the way, the long vowels I use to transcribe the signs are not reflected in the standard colonial Yucatec orthography used by Thompson and others, and represent a more "archaic" Classic-era Ch'olan phonology). Thompson had T528 as HAAB and T548 as TUUN, but we now know he had it backwards. John Justeson and John Fox corrected Thompson's analysis in 1980, and assigned the correct values in the "drought" glyph. However, they also proposed that both signs could have either values, depending on context. This is not the case, and Maya writing does not accommodate this sort of polyvalency. I feel very strongly now, as do most epigrpahers, that T528 is always read TUUN and T548 is always HAAB' - phonetically they never switch roles. What may confuse people is that T548 could stand for haab' in refering to a "year" of either 360 or 365 days. Tuun means "stone" and only secondarily "year," since ritual stones (monuments) were used symbolically to as material representations of the time periods. But because of the more metaphoric "year" meaning, tuun "stone" could also conceivably stand for a 360 or 365-day period. But the latter 365 usage is very, very rare. The best recent source for the TUUN reading is my 1996 article "Kings of Stone," published in RES: Anthropology and Aesthetics. Also very relevant is John Justeson and Peter Mathews older article "The Seating of the Tun," published in American Antiquity in the early 1980s. Best, David ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From carolyn.tate at ttu.edu Wed Apr 4 16:19:53 2007 From: carolyn.tate at ttu.edu (Tate, Carolyn) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:19:53 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Axolotl Message-ID: A few years ago, there was a discussion of the axolotl, the salamander that inhabited the lake system in the Valley of Mexico. Could the person who initiated that discussion let me know what its questions and their results were? Thanks, Carolyn Tate From bwrogers at usgs.gov Wed Apr 4 17:47:13 2007 From: bwrogers at usgs.gov (Bruce Rogers) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:47:13 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Axolotl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >A few years ago, there was a discussion of the axolotl, the salamander that >inhabited the lake system in the Valley of Mexico. Could the person who >initiated that discussion let me know what its questions and their results >were? >Thanks, >Carolyn Tate ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:28:57 -0500 From: "John F. Schwaller" Subject: curious To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU At 09:17 AM 12/1/1999 -0500, you wrote: >i'm new to the list and am wondering if anyone has ever read DUNE by >Frank Herbert. it may seem odd, but, in the book, he uses the word >axolotl to refer to a tank used for cloning. i can gather from some of >the postings that xolotl means doll, but i don't know what the a- adds >to the word. i haven't studied much of the language yet so i haven't >committed much grammar to memory. thank you to anyone who responds. axolotl is a water puppy, a non-metamorphosed salamander. It comes from Nahuatl and means a water xolotl. There was a relatively large group of animals in Nahuatl taxonomy which b elonged to the xolotl class including the turkey (big xolotl) and the owl (rock xolotl) John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:29:06 -0500 From: Carlos M Rincon Subject: curious To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU Hi Lucas: An axolotl (Amphystoma tigrina) is an amphibian regarded by Mexicans as one of their most unique animals. It's metamorphosis is arrested so that it never leaves its watery environment.... keeps its tail, branchia etc. The allusion to tank... not a wheeled weapon, but rather a holding area or receptacle could be a tenuous reference to the axolotl's need for continuous immersion. It is an edible salamander. It is believed to be a fish that menstruates like women (Karttunen, F. 1983:15, An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, Univ. of Texas Press, Austin). The ethymological derivation is especially tricky: the "a" is a prefix derived from the Nahuatl word "atl" meaning water. "Xolotl" could be derived from the verb "xolahua" or "xoloa" meaning to slip, or to have a slippery quality (Karttunen 1983:330). Interestingly, "xolotl" is frequently used to refer to twinned objects, hence the closest connotation to cloning that I could find. Refer to Miller, M. and K. Taube 1993:190, in The Gods and Symbols of Ancient Mexico and the Maya, Thames and Hudson Ltd., London. Hope this helps. Good luck. Carlos A. Rincon Mautner carmecol at dc.seflin.org ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:29:11 -0500 From: a8803917 Subject: curious To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU The axolotl is a kind of newt living in central Mexico (from "atl"=water and "xolotl"=nude, skinless) Lucas Molina Schrieb +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:20:24 -0500 From: Tom Frederiksen Subject: Curious, axolotl biology To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU Dr. Buerglin writes: > Could the aztecs have known about the metamorphosis properties of axolotls?? Another aspect of Axolotl is the ability to spontaneously change (morph) under stress. {reference: http://www.iversonsoftware.com/business/reptile/axolotl.html } A very deity-like ability. Since this thread seems to be growing legs, I have placed a picture of the white mutant variety on line for a few days should anyone be interested is seeing the "feather" like gills. Axolotl picture - http://northcoast.com/~spdtom/axolotl.gif (NOTE: LINK NO LONGER WORKS) The Aztec were quite interested in nature. It is hard to believe they were unaware of this creature and it's rather odd properties. Considering the feather like gills, and a monster like appearance, a case for association with Quet and Xol could be made. Best, Tom Frederiksen +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:01:37 -0500 From: Linda Foss Organization: Marrder Omnimedia Subject: Curious, axolotl biology To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU Thomas Burglin wrote: > There are actually several different types of newts that have > this "non-maturing" feature, some often in the cold mountain > areas in lakes (some in the Rockies, I think). This is very common. Tiger Salamander can also stay in their larval state. They are called mud puppies and are sold around here in bait shops. Although I don't see how anyone can stick a fish hook through their funny heads. Anyway, they stay in their larval stage if their aquatic environment is fine. If their pond should dry up or food supply become low, they can complete their metamorphosis, become adult salamanders and move onto the land. Adaptation! Amphibians are definitely the weirdest and the most fascinating group of quadrapeds. Linda Foss +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:50:35 -0500 From: Samuel Edgerton Jr Subject: Curious, axolotl biology To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU I should have added in my last comment on this subject that the phylum amphibiae not only contains salamanders and frogs but also bewitched princes (counterparts to the lawyers among reptiles). Sam Edgerton +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:14:45 -0500 From: Linda Foss Organization: Marrder Omnimedia Subject: Axolotl To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU They are Tiger Salamander larva and are used for bait for fishing. They live here in east Texas as well, although I have never seen one. Except in a tank in a classroom at the Houston Museum of Natural Science where they are a big hit with kids. They have very funny faces. They are often called mud puppies or water dogs. Linda Foss ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 15:19:21 2007 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 22:19:21 +0200 Subject: [Aztlan] Aztlan Digest, Vol 17, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry but I have to correct mr. schwallers comment about the "xolotl class" of animals. An owl is *tekolotl* not *Texolotl*. Kolotl means scorpion - or some have argued it also means generically pointy, stingy, dangerous animals. A *texolotl* however is the beater of a molcajete. In Hueyapan nawatl *xolotl* means "glutton" and the etymology given for turkey (probably a folk etymology) is "big glutton" because turkeys take a lot of feed to raise. Magnus From sylvia at famsi.org Thu Apr 5 15:28:42 2007 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 16:28:42 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Grantee Reports/Informes--Vista Alegre, Cholula, Palo Errado, Palenque Message-ID: <006801c777c1$0157e740$2501a8c0@sylvia> Mesoamericanists, New grantee reports this week at FAMSI website include: La Costa Escondida: An Archaeological Investigation of the Ancient Maya Port of Vista Alegre, Quintana Roo, Mexico (2005) by Dominique Rissolo. http://www.famsi.org/reports/03043/index.html The Effects of Urbanism on the Health and Demography of the Postclassic Population of Cholula, Puebla (2004) by Meggan M. Bullock. http://www.famsi.org/reports/03066/index.html Informes en Espa?ol: Proyecto de Mapeo de los Campos Inundables de Palo Errado, Veracruz, Mexico (2005) por Charles Leonard Frederick Knight. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05066es/index.html Proyecto Hidro-Arqueologico de Palenque (2005) por Kirk D. French. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05076es/index.html Saludos, Sylvia Perrine, Archivist Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/index.html From DHARMA at compuserve.com Thu Apr 5 21:12:31 2007 From: DHARMA at compuserve.com (Dody Fugate) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 22:12:31 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Xolotl Message-ID: <200704052212_MC3-1-DFF4-BE0@compuserve.com> Interestingly enough, 'Xolotl' is also the name of Quetzalcoatls' brother/avatar the dead dog who escorts the souls of the dead to the neither world. This name ' Xolotl' 'glutton' is another example of the strange liminal position dogs have in the world. They are considered important enough to escort the dead safely to the next life but they are also the eaters of the dead. Dody Fugate' Santa Fe From robertleonardhall at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 5 22:02:43 2007 From: robertleonardhall at sbcglobal.net (Robert Hall) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 20:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Axolotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <493818.70097.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Colegas, I have learned much from the discussions of xolotl as an element of words in Nahuatl, axolotl and hueyxolotl in particular, but to the extent that the god Xolotl was identified with Evening Star as an aspect of Venus, whose destiny was death each 584 days, I believe that Xolotl's warrior status may be being slighted. Perhaps someone can correct me if I have strayed too far from reason. The image of Xolotl in the Codex Borgia shows him with a hand painted over his mouth area. This is a manner of face painting that in the North American Plains signified a war honor, either for reason of an action against an enemy or for reason of escaping an action by an enemy. This is recorded historically for the Sisseton Dakota, Winnebago, and Omaha and is represented on a repousse copper plate of the Mississippian period, found in Missouri, depicting a falcon warrior or impersonator. Such plates in the Southeastern United States are late prehistoric in age and probably date to between A.D. 1100 and 1400. The name guajolote ( wrote: Sorry but I have to correct mr. schwallers comment about the "xolotl class" of animals. An owl is *tekolotl* not *Texolotl*. Kolotl means scorpion - or some have argued it also means generically pointy, stingy, dangerous animals. A *texolotl* however is the beater of a molcajete. In Hueyapan nawatl *xolotl* means "glutton" and the etymology given for turkey (probably a folk etymology) is "big glutton" because turkeys take a lot of feed to raise. Magnus _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From romogut56 at prodigy.net.mx Fri Apr 6 23:48:57 2007 From: romogut56 at prodigy.net.mx (Roberto RG) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 23:48:57 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] xolotl axolotl Message-ID: <461722B9.70004@PRODIGY.NET.MX> Hola Acerca de las diversas opiniones sobre Xolotl y Axolotll . Se?ala Carlos Rincon que "xolotl" is frequently used to refer to twinned objects." Efectivamente este tipo de respuesta sobre Xolotl es t?pica, Xoltol es el gemelo de Quetzatcoatl. Interpretaci?n establecida por Seler y osificada en la antropolog?a mesoamericana por el peso acad?mico y pol?tico que llego a tener Alfonso Caso, sabio y al mismo tiempo director del INAH,jefe de los antropologos cuando no hab?a contrapesos sindicales y despues Rector de la UNAM y jefe de los otros antropologos donde se presentaba la misma situaci?n laboral. Creo que es una concepci?n que debe ser sometida a una revisi?n cr?tica. ?Que tienen de gemelos, esto es, de exactamente iguales, el dios Xolotlt con cabeza de perro y pies deformes (cfr c?dice borgia) con un dios con mascara de pato (Ehecatl) (c?diceBorgia) ? O por quees gemelo ese dios con cara de perro del dios con cabeza humana Quetzatcoatl, cfr imagen en manuscrito del palacio de Sahag?n o Atavio de los dioses? Esos gemelos me parecen como los que cre? el guionista del film Twins, con Devito y Arnold como actores principales. Se?ala Magnus An owl is *tekolotl* not *Texolotl*. Kolotl means scorpion - or some have argued it also means generically pointy, stingy, dangerous El t?rmino Tecolote , de tecolotl existe y refiere al buho. Persiste el dicho basado en una creencia prehisp?nica : Cuando el tecolote, el buho, canta el indio muere, y refiere a un mal ag?ero prehisp?nico ver abusiones en Sahagun HIstoria... Por esa liga del tecolote con lo funesto , con la muerte, y el simbolismo que pose?a el buho o tecolote en la hechiceria europea se uso el t?rmino Tecolotl para acompa?ar el vocablo que los cronistas usaron en nahuatl para designar e implantar en mesoamerica el concepto del diablo cristiano: Tlacatecolotl Texolotl se conoce actualmente como Tejolote y efectivamente es lo que se usa para machacar el molcajete. Es usado para hacer las salsas o el guacamole, este ?ltimo hecho de aguacates y ahuacatl son testiculos en nahuatl. Un dato mas para poner en duda la visi?n puritana de los mesoamericanos del centro y norte de m?xico que nos dieron los cronistas El t?rmino Kolotl no existe con K es Colotl con C. De ah? por ejemplo la poblaci?n de Colotlan,hist?rico pueblo del norte de Jalisco protag?nico para el fin de la Guerra Chichimeca , vease Powell Guerra Chichimeca. Si busca en un mapa como llegar a Kolotlan , nunca lograra hacerlo porque no existe dicho lugar . Dice Dody Fugate 'Xolotl' is also the name of Quetzalcoatls' brother/avatar Si Xolotl es el nombre de Quetzatcoatl entonces son lo mismo Xolotl que Quetzatcoatl? Xololt = Quetzatcoatl ? Porque son lo mismo, en que son lo mismo? Entre los mitos de los colhuas mexicas, los erroneamente, llamados aztecas, Xolotl es un dios cobarde que huye deshonrosamente de la muerte y del sacrificio, lo mas deshonroso que pod?a haber y por eso se convierte en cosas dobles y finalmente se transforma en un ajolote, un axolotl, que ya no es un objeto doble, forma en la que es descubierto y muerto. Frente al despreciable Xolotl, como antagonista esta el dios Quetzatcotl que fue un heroe que bajo al inframundo y obtuvo los huesos para hacer a los humanos y luego se sangro su pene sobre los huesos molidos para darles vida . Es lo mismo un cobarde que un h?roe? O porque algui?n, no importa qui?n, dijo que Quetzatcoatl y Xolotl son hermanos debemos aceptarlo? Lo mismo, hermano y avatar no son terminos con contenidos equiparables. El hermano de algui?n no es lo mismo que esa persona y una transformaci?n o un avatar no es lo mismo que un hermano. Es cierto entre Xolotl y Quetzatcoatl hubo en alg?n momento una situaci?n de transformaci?n, entre ellos hay un avatar Lo que habria que investigar es quien fue el avatar de quien?. Xolotl creo yo, fue un dios mas antiguo que Quetzatcoatl y este fue un dios mas moderno cuyos adoradores , los colhuas mexicas, le otorgaron las atribuciones divinas de aquel, apoyados en la fuerza militar que llego a tener el imperio colhua mexica, erroneamente llamado azteca. Esta versi?n azteca" de la mitologia mesoamericana fue la que por los cronistas llego a nosostros de forma mayoritaria por el peso pol?tico militar que tuvo este estado mesomericano, la gran Tenochtitlan, Sin embargo hay mitos recogidos por Fray Ger?nimo de Mendieta que otorgan a Xolotl todos los atributos, haza?as y ?reas de intervenci?n divina que luego encontramos en Quetzatcoatl. Est? tambi?n el sugerente hecho de que el primer gran poder chichimeca que existio en el valle de Mexico fue el reyno de Xolotl. De este reyno descienden los Tepanecas los mismos que durante siglos esclavizaron a los "aztecas" o (colhuas mexicas) Iba este rey Xolotl, portando su nombre, honrar a un dios sin?nimo de cobard?a como los mitos colhua mexicas (aztecas) nos presentan a Xolotl? Creo que esa transformaci?n del papel divino de Xolotl, en cobarde, paje y perruno sirviente de Quetzatcoatl forma parte de la re escritura de la historia y de la religi?n que Iztcoatl y Tlacaelel hicieron cuando quemaron los libros, habiendo antes derotado a los tepanecas. La intervenci?n de Robert Hall es muy interesante Efectivamente es necesario romper el etnocentrismo y el geo centrismo para buscar entender mejor la religi?n , mitologia y cosmologia del centro y centro norte de mesoamerica Se?ala The image of Xolotl in the Codex Borgia shows him with a hand painted over his mouth area. This is a manner of face painting that in the North American Plains signified a war honor Pero me queda la duda se refiere al animal llamado gloton o al animal llamado Tejon? El gloton es solo de lugares de Tundra y el tejon existe en las praderas. En el tejon el pelo de su cabeza forma una "mascara" parecida al maquillaje facial de Xolotl. Los pies de Xolotl en la imagen del Borgia recuerdan las garras del tejon, el cual se nombra tecozantli Roberto From birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 9 11:36:20 2007 From: birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com (jeremy smith) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine Message-ID: <746200.49053.qm@web60116.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Everybody, It seems like the Maya did have an alcoholic drink made from maize. Most of you professional Mayanist probably already knew this. I knew the Maya consumed some form of intoxicating beverage from various ceramic vessels and figurines portraying intoxicated persons. John Montgomery (2001;185) writes in "Tikal-An Illustrated History of the Ancient Maya Capital," about a vessel taken from Burial 196: "Among the polychrome cylinders present, one ranks among the most beautiful ever painted in the Maya lowlands. Smaller than typical vases, and executed in "codex style," the cream field and heiroglyphic writing resemble a page from a Maya book. The dual enthroned lords and their attendants are outlined in black, while costume details, the ruler's bodies, and the more important heiroglyphs are tinted in shades of red. Both attendants represent hummingbirds. and their long beaks pierce the heiroglyph for "flower." Another sign written on the vase between them, reads sa, identifying the vessels contents as alcoholic maize gruel." --------------------------------- Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. From mayavase at verizon.net Mon Apr 9 15:31:09 2007 From: mayavase at verizon.net (Justin Kerr) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 16:31:09 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine In-Reply-To: <746200.49053.qm@web60116.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003e01c77ae6$02caa450$6701a8c0@justnew> The vase the John Montgomery refers to is K8008 and unless I am reading the text incorrectly the rim text, says cacao. We can study K1092 were the text refers to Ah Ki (the drunkard)[in Yukatec] and the leaves in the bowl have been identified as maguey. There is strong evidence that a prime substance to ferment was honey, see K1453. But K504 has a text that refers to "the seeds of the genitals" which is a euphuism referring to corn gruel. Justin -----Original Message----- From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of jeremy smith Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 12:36 PM To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine Hi Everybody, It seems like the Maya did have an alcoholic drink made from maize. Most of you professional Mayanist probably already knew this. I knew the Maya consumed some form of intoxicating beverage from various ceramic vessels and figurines portraying intoxicated persons. John Montgomery (2001;185) writes in "Tikal-An Illustrated History of the Ancient Maya Capital," about a vessel taken from Burial 196: "Among the polychrome cylinders present, one ranks among the most beautiful ever painted in the Maya lowlands. Smaller than typical vases, and executed in "codex style," the cream field and heiroglyphic writing resemble a page from a Maya book. The dual enthroned lords and their attendants are outlined in black, while costume details, the ruler's bodies, and the more important heiroglyphs are tinted in shades of red. Both attendants represent hummingbirds. and their long beaks pierce the heiroglyph for "flower." Another sign written on the vase between them, reads sa, identifying the vessels contents as alcoholic maize gruel." --------------------------------- Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Mon Apr 9 16:53:38 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nick Hopkins) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 17:53:38 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya alcoholic maize wine Message-ID: In response to birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com RE the maize drink, the modern Maya of the Chiapas highlands (e.g., Tzotzils, Tzeltals) make a fermented maize drink called chicha (a Spanish word which elsewhere refers to drinks made from other stuff), which I would imagine is the same as the preconquest fermented beverage. Tzotzil yakil vo', Tzeltal yakal ja', etc., are based on a root yak meaning intoxicating/ intoxicated, cf. Chol y?k, drunk. The alcoholic content is about that of beer, and this beverage is/was sold and consumed in village markets on market days and on the occasion of public festivities. The beverage referred to by John Montgomery, sa' (Spanish pozol), is the beverage taken to the fields by agricultural workers, and is not usually fermented (in my experience), although it is sometimes consumed in a sour stage that is on its way to fermentation (pozol agrio), just like 'ul (atole) may be slightly fermented. A chart of the stages of production of these two beverages (and several dozen other maize preparations) can be constructed from the data in Berlin, Breedlove and Raven's Principles of Tzeltal Plant Taxonomy. Nick Hopkins From hwavila at tutopia.com Mon Apr 9 16:54:21 2007 From: hwavila at tutopia.com (Henry Avila) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:54:21 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine References: <003e01c77ae6$02caa450$6701a8c0@justnew> Message-ID: <002501c77af1$a9f71dc0$7319a8c0@lan> Alcoholic Fruits Wine Well, I don?t know if this drink is from maya origin, but certainly it is very antique here in high lands of Guatemala. And it is prepared almost only for the maya comunity. Consist in a mix of fruits pieces in a boiling soup, many kinds of fruits, and then it gets bury for about three weeks. After that lapse, it is ready for drink. This drink is known as "koosha" and it is forbbiden by the goverment. It is very alcoholic, I proved it and I think it is like a shot of tequila. One person can be easily get drunk with a few drinks. I was wondering if this was an antique drink just like the "maize wine". Regards. ______________________________ Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar m?s r?pido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos. From JSJusteson at aol.com Mon Apr 9 20:27:23 2007 From: JSJusteson at aol.com (JSJusteson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 21:27:23 EDT Subject: [Aztlan] Ep: meeting announcement: NE Mesoam. Epig. Group (NutMEG): Fri-Sat Apr 20 & 21 Message-ID: Carolyn Tate will be speaking on La Venta's processional creation narrative. Her presentation will begin at 4:00pm on Friday, April 20, in Room 354 of the Humanities building at SUNY Albany -- our usual Albany venue. The session will be followed by dinner at a local restaurant. The next day, Juan Ignacio Cazes will be speaking on ancient Mayan astronomy, starting at 1:00pm. The venue will be Humanities Room 290. NutMEG presentations normally run 2.5 - 3.5 hours, with a short break in the middle. If you have questions, please contact me at _justeson at gmail.com_ (mailto:justeson at gmail.com) . John Justeson ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From eschele at austin.rr.com Mon Apr 9 23:21:34 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:21:34 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Maize Farming In Mexico - Earliest Evidence Message-ID: <003e01c77b27$b9c169f0$6401a8c0@gis> >From Science Daily: Source: Florida State University Date: April 9, 2007 Anthropologist Finds Earliest Evidence Of Maize Farming In Mexico Science Daily - A Florida State University anthropologist has new evidence that ancient farmers in Mexico were cultivating an early form of maize, the forerunner of modern corn, about 7,300 years ago - 1,200 years earlier than scholars previously thought. Professor Mary Pohl conducted an analysis of sediments in the Gulf Coast of Tabasco, Mexico, and concluded that people were planting crops in the "New World" of the Americas around 5,300 B.C. The analysis extends Pohl's previous work in this area and validates principles of microfossil data collection. The results of Pohl's study, which she conducted along with Dolores R. Piperno of the National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C. and the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in the Republic of Panama, Kevin O. Pope of Geo Arc Research and John G. Jones of Washington State University, will be published in the April 9-13 edition of the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. For the rest of the story: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070409181647.htm From deamayaspin at yahoo.com Mon Apr 9 20:42:37 2007 From: deamayaspin at yahoo.com (D. M. Urquidi) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 18:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine In-Reply-To: <002501c77af1$a9f71dc0$7319a8c0@lan> Message-ID: <291804.72390.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Henry Avila When water is bad or dangerous to drink, things like alcoholic fruit beverages, grapes, pineapple, maiz,maguey, etc. are the solution. The Guatemala drink is similar to the Cali, Colombia pineapple offering at meals; Not as alcoholic, only three or four days (or a week) in a pot. in the hot weather, this makes a slightly tart cerveza. It seems that the whole of the Americas has some variant of this drink. It keeps away diarrhea and other stomach viruses and makes for healthy people IF not used in excess. (Or not used with excess fermentation time.) Dea D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765 http://www.mayalords.org http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From aztlandave at yahoo.com Tue Apr 10 08:53:28 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 06:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] In Search of Nature - A new addition to the FAMSI Journal by John Hoopes In-Reply-To: <003e01c77b27$b9c169f0$6401a8c0@gis> Message-ID: <888695.5493.qm@web37002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Estimados Listeros, We at the FAMSI Journal of the Ancient Americas are pleased to announce the newest addition to our online journal: In Search of Nature: Imagining the Precolumbian Landscapes of Ancient Central America. By Dr. John W. Hoopes "Human impact on the ecology of the New World did not begin with the arrival of European settlers. Nor is the story of twelve millennia of human occupation one of "low impact" with few lasting effects. In fact, it is likely that alteration of the landscape in the indigenous past was at least as significant as it has been in the European present." This paper delves into the impact of human alteration of the Central American landscape in the late Holocene, with detailed evidence from the archaeology and ecology of Costa Rica. This was formerly published on the "Aztlan E-Journal" but has now been transferred to the FAMSI server in order to insure that this valuable resource remains in circulation on the web. Dr. Hoopes is a widely renowned archaeologist and author, a pioneer of putting archaeology "on the web" and one of the original founding members of the Aztlan community. Please visit the FAMSI Journal website for the complete article in PDF format (URL below), and be sure to click on "Contributed Papers" to view a list of all available articles. http://research.famsi.org/aztlan/aztlan_journal.php Saludos, Dave, Fritz and Mike Aztlan Moderators & FAMSI Journal Editors ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Tue Apr 10 14:35:55 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nicholas Hopkins) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:35:55 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Alcoholic Drinks Message-ID: That fermented pineapple juice (and pineapples are native to the New World) is called tepache in Mexico City and environs, and is a popular (in both senses) drink. I lived one summer in a room above a small restaurant that served only tepache and pozole (the Central Mexican kind, not the Maya). I assume from the name that this is a precolumbian beverage. Nick Hopkins From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Tue Apr 10 14:44:57 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nicholas Hopkins) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:44:57 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Maize Farming In Mexico - Earliest Evidence In-Reply-To: <003e01c77b27$b9c169f0$6401a8c0@gis> References: <003e01c77b27$b9c169f0$6401a8c0@gis> Message-ID: A lengthy story on these discoveries is also featured on the FSU website front page, www.fsu.edu (with a nice photo of Mary!). Nick Hopkins On Apr 10, 2007, at 12:21 AM, Elaine Day Schele wrote: >> From Science Daily: > Source: Florida State University > Date: April 9, 2007 > Anthropologist Finds Earliest Evidence Of Maize Farming In Mexico > Science Daily - A Florida State University anthropologist has new > evidence that ancient farmers in Mexico were cultivating an early > form of maize, the forerunner of modern corn, about 7,300 years ago > - 1,200 years earlier than scholars previously thought. > > Professor Mary Pohl conducted an analysis of sediments in the Gulf > Coast of Tabasco, Mexico, and concluded that people were planting > crops in the "New World" of the Americas around 5,300 B.C. The > analysis extends Pohl's previous work in this area and validates > principles of microfossil data collection. > > The results of Pohl's study, which she conducted along with Dolores > R. Piperno of the National Museum of Natural History in Washington, > D.C. and the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in the > Republic of Panama, Kevin O. Pope of Geo Arc Research and John G. > Jones of Washington State University, will be published in the > April 9-13 edition of the journal Proceedings of the National > Academy of Sciences. > > For the rest of the story: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/ > 2007/04/070409181647.htm > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From nemotode at hotmail.com Tue Apr 10 14:07:17 2007 From: nemotode at hotmail.com (David Clark) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:07:17 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Chicha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Non-Maya people in present day Honduras & El Salvador make an alcoholic drink they call "chicha" from maize, pineapple, & spices. Had some a few months ago. Very tasty. >From: aztlan-request at lists.famsi.org >Reply-To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >Subject: Aztlan Digest, Vol 17, Issue 8 >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:00:02 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from www.famsi.org ([72.3.223.2]) by >bay0-mc2-f17.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, >10 Apr 2007 10:02:14 -0700 >Received: from www.famsi.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])by www.famsi.org >(8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l3AH09Pg028579;Tue, 10 Apr 2007 >12:00:12 -0500 >X-Message-Info: >txF49lGdW419SZcXJpZgsnh36cdD1v03cdbEiPFHVAF+vQsw2wN3t5V5923d0+aG >X-BeenThere: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 >Precedence: list >List-Id: A PreColumbian Discussion List >List-Unsubscribe: >, >List-Archive: >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Subscribe: >, >Errors-To: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org >Return-Path: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Apr 2007 17:02:15.0210 (UTC) >FILETIME=[FD3790A0:01C77B91] > >Send Aztlan mailing list submissions to > aztlan at lists.famsi.org > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > aztlan-request at lists.famsi.org > >You can reach the person managing the list at > aztlan-owner at lists.famsi.org > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of Aztlan digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine (jeremy smith) > 2. Re: Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine (Justin Kerr) > 3. Maya alcoholic maize wine (Nick Hopkins) > 4. Re: Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine (Henry Avila) > 5. Ep: meeting announcement: NE Mesoam. Epig. Group (NutMEG): > Fri-Sat Apr 20 & 21 (JSJusteson at aol.com) > 6. Maize Farming In Mexico - Earliest Evidence (Elaine Day Schele) > 7. Re: Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine (D. M. Urquidi) > 8. In Search of Nature - A new addition to the FAMSI Journal by > John Hoopes (David Hixson) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) >From: jeremy smith >Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >Message-ID: <746200.49053.qm at web60116.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >Hi Everybody, > > It seems like the Maya did have an alcoholic drink made from maize. Most >of you > professional Mayanist probably already knew this. I knew the Maya >consumed some form of > intoxicating beverage from various ceramic vessels and figurines >portraying intoxicated > persons. John Montgomery (2001;185) writes in "Tikal-An Illustrated >History of the Ancient > Maya Capital," about a vessel taken from Burial 196: > > "Among the polychrome cylinders present, one ranks among the most >beautiful ever > painted in the Maya lowlands. Smaller than typical vases, and executed >in "codex style," > the cream field and heiroglyphic writing resemble a page from a Maya >book. The dual > enthroned lords and their attendants are outlined in black, while >costume details, the > ruler's bodies, and the more important heiroglyphs are tinted in shades >of red. Both > attendants represent hummingbirds. and their long beaks pierce the >heiroglyph for > "flower." Another sign written on the vase between them, reads sa, >identifying the vessels > contents as alcoholic maize gruel." > > >--------------------------------- >Need Mail bonding? >Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 16:31:09 -0400 >From: "Justin Kerr" >Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine >To: "'jeremy smith'" , >Message-ID: <003e01c77ae6$02caa450$6701a8c0 at justnew> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >The vase the John Montgomery refers to is K8008 and unless I am reading the >text incorrectly the rim text, says cacao. >We can study K1092 were the text refers to Ah Ki (the drunkard)[in Yukatec] >and the leaves in the bowl have been identified as maguey. >There is strong evidence that a prime substance to ferment was honey, see >K1453. >But K504 has a text that refers to "the seeds of the genitals" which is a >euphuism referring to corn gruel. >Justin > >-----Original Message----- >From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org >[mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] >On Behalf Of jeremy smith >Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 12:36 PM >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine > >Hi Everybody, > > It seems like the Maya did have an alcoholic drink made from maize. Most >of you > professional Mayanist probably already knew this. I knew the Maya >consumed >some form of > intoxicating beverage from various ceramic vessels and figurines >portraying intoxicated > persons. John Montgomery (2001;185) writes in "Tikal-An Illustrated >History of the Ancient > Maya Capital," about a vessel taken from Burial 196: > > "Among the polychrome cylinders present, one ranks among the most >beautiful ever > painted in the Maya lowlands. Smaller than typical vases, and executed >in >"codex style," > the cream field and heiroglyphic writing resemble a page from a Maya >book. >The dual > enthroned lords and their attendants are outlined in black, while >costume >details, the > ruler's bodies, and the more important heiroglyphs are tinted in shades >of >red. Both > attendants represent hummingbirds. and their long beaks pierce the >heiroglyph for > "flower." Another sign written on the vase between them, reads sa, >identifying the vessels > contents as alcoholic maize gruel." > > >--------------------------------- >Need Mail bonding? >Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. >_______________________________________________ >Aztlan mailing list >Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 17:53:38 -0400 >From: Nick Hopkins >Subject: [Aztlan] Maya alcoholic maize wine >To: Aztlan >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed > >In response to birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com RE the maize drink, the modern >Maya of the Chiapas highlands (e.g., Tzotzils, Tzeltals) make a >fermented maize drink called chicha (a Spanish word which elsewhere >refers to drinks made from other stuff), which I would imagine is the >same as the preconquest fermented beverage. Tzotzil yakil vo', >Tzeltal yakal ja', etc., are based on a root yak meaning intoxicating/ >intoxicated, cf. Chol y?k, drunk. The alcoholic content is about >that of beer, and this beverage is/was sold and consumed in village >markets on market days and on the occasion of public festivities. >The beverage referred to by John Montgomery, sa' (Spanish pozol), is >the beverage taken to the fields by agricultural workers, and is not >usually fermented (in my experience), although it is sometimes >consumed in a sour stage that is on its way to fermentation (pozol >agrio), just like 'ul (atole) may be slightly fermented. A chart of >the stages of production of these two beverages (and several dozen >other maize preparations) can be constructed from the data in Berlin, >Breedlove and Raven's Principles of Tzeltal Plant Taxonomy. > >Nick Hopkins > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:54:21 -0500 >From: "Henry Avila" >Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine >To: >Message-ID: <002501c77af1$a9f71dc0$7319a8c0 at lan> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >Alcoholic Fruits Wine > >Well, I don?t know if this drink is from maya origin, but certainly it is >very antique here in high lands of Guatemala. And it is prepared almost >only for the maya comunity. > >Consist in a mix of fruits pieces in a boiling soup, many kinds of fruits, >and then it gets bury for about three weeks. After that lapse, it is ready >for drink. > >This drink is known as "koosha" and it is forbbiden by the goverment. It >is >very alcoholic, I proved it and I think it is like a shot of tequila. One >person can be easily get drunk with a few drinks. I was wondering if this >was an antique drink just like the "maize wine". > >Regards. > >______________________________ >Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar m?s r?pido en Internet. >Tutopia es Internet para todos. > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 21:27:23 EDT >From: JSJusteson at aol.com >Subject: [Aztlan] Ep: meeting announcement: NE Mesoam. Epig. Group > (NutMEG): Fri-Sat Apr 20 & 21 >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Carolyn Tate will be speaking on La Venta's processional creation >narrative. > Her presentation will begin at 4:00pm on Friday, April 20, in Room 354 >of >the Humanities building at SUNY Albany -- our usual Albany venue. The >session >will be followed by dinner at a local restaurant. > >The next day, Juan Ignacio Cazes will be speaking on ancient Mayan >astronomy, > starting at 1:00pm. The venue will be Humanities Room 290. > >NutMEG presentations normally run 2.5 - 3.5 hours, with a short break in >the > middle. If you have questions, please contact me at _justeson at gmail.com_ >(mailto:justeson at gmail.com) . > >John Justeson > > > >************************************** See what's free at >http://www.aol.com. > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:21:34 -0500 >From: "Elaine Day Schele" >Subject: [Aztlan] Maize Farming In Mexico - Earliest Evidence >To: "Aztlan" >Message-ID: <003e01c77b27$b9c169f0$6401a8c0 at gis> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >From Science Daily: >Source: Florida State University >Date: April 9, 2007 >Anthropologist Finds Earliest Evidence Of Maize Farming In Mexico >Science Daily - A Florida State University anthropologist has new evidence >that ancient farmers in Mexico were cultivating an early form of maize, the >forerunner of modern corn, about 7,300 years ago - 1,200 years earlier than >scholars previously thought. > >Professor Mary Pohl conducted an analysis of sediments in the Gulf Coast of >Tabasco, Mexico, and concluded that people were planting crops in the "New >World" of the Americas around 5,300 B.C. The analysis extends Pohl's >previous work in this area and validates principles of microfossil data >collection. > >The results of Pohl's study, which she conducted along with Dolores R. >Piperno of the National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C. and >the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in the Republic of Panama, >Kevin O. Pope of Geo Arc Research and John G. Jones of Washington State >University, will be published in the April 9-13 edition of the journal >Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. > >For the rest of the story: >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070409181647.htm > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 7 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 18:42:37 -0700 (PDT) >From: "D. M. Urquidi" >Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >Message-ID: <291804.72390.qm at web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Henry Avila > >When water is bad or dangerous to drink, things like >alcoholic fruit beverages, grapes, pineapple, >maiz,maguey, etc. are the solution. > >The Guatemala drink is similar to the Cali, Colombia >pineapple offering at meals; Not as alcoholic, only >three or four days (or a week) in a pot. in the hot >weather, this makes a slightly tart cerveza. It seems >that the whole of the Americas has some variant of >this drink. It keeps away diarrhea and other stomach >viruses and makes for healthy people IF not used in >excess. (Or not used with excess fermentation time.) > >Dea > >D. M. Urquidi > P. O. Box 49485 > Austin, Texas 78765 > http://www.mayalords.org > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/ > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Get your own web address. >Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. >http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 8 >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 06:53:28 -0700 (PDT) >From: David Hixson >Subject: [Aztlan] In Search of Nature - A new addition to the FAMSI > Journal by John Hoopes >To: Aztlan >Message-ID: <888695.5493.qm at web37002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >Estimados Listeros, > >We at the FAMSI Journal of the Ancient Americas are >pleased to announce the newest addition to our online >journal: > >In Search of Nature: Imagining the Precolumbian >Landscapes of Ancient Central America. > >By Dr. John W. Hoopes > >"Human impact on the ecology of the New World did not >begin with the arrival of European settlers. Nor is >the story of twelve millennia of human occupation one >of "low impact" with few lasting effects. In fact, it >is likely that alteration of the landscape in the >indigenous past was at least as significant as it has >been in the European present." > >This paper delves into the impact of human alteration >of the Central American landscape in the late >Holocene, with detailed evidence from the archaeology >and ecology of Costa Rica. > >This was formerly published on the "Aztlan E-Journal" >but has now been transferred to the FAMSI server in >order to insure that this valuable resource remains in >circulation on the web. > >Dr. Hoopes is a widely renowned archaeologist and >author, a pioneer of putting archaeology "on the web" >and one of the original founding members of the Aztlan >community. > >Please visit the FAMSI Journal website for the >complete article in PDF format (URL below), and be >sure to click on "Contributed Papers" to view a list >of all available articles. > >http://research.famsi.org/aztlan/aztlan_journal.php > >Saludos, > >Dave, Fritz and Mike >Aztlan Moderators & >FAMSI Journal Editors > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. >Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. >http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Aztlan mailing list >Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > >End of Aztlan Digest, Vol 17, Issue 8 >************************************* _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07 From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Apr 10 16:45:14 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:45:14 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Chicha Message-ID: <20070410205519.26331.qmail@hermes.potsdam.edu> Chicha of various sorts can be found throughout the Americas. It is also very popular in the Andes. In Inca times women would chew corn sprouts, and spit the mixture into bowls for fermentation. The salivary enzymes created a product not unlike "Light" beer. The word "chicha" comes from the natives of Panama, 'chichab' meaning maize, or so the Academia Real tells us. While tepache is from an indigenous language of Mexico, I'm not so sure it is from Nahuatl. I'll have to look into it. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax From michaelruggeri at mac.com Wed Apr 11 07:19:25 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 07:19:25 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] CLOVIS OR POSSIBLE PRE-CLOVIS HUMAN REMAINS FOUND AT TULUM Message-ID: Archaeologists find 3 prehistoric bodies in SE Mexico www.chinaview.cn -------------- next part -------------- 2007-04-11 11:39:34 Adjust font size: -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- MEXICO CITY, April 10 (Xinhua) -- Mexican archaeologists found remains of two women and a man that can be traced to more than 10,000 years ago in the Mayan area of Tulum, Mexico's National Anthropology and History Institute said in a statement on Tuesday. The remains were being examined by laboratories in Britain, the United States and Mexico, all of which had said the remains were people between 10,000 and 14,500 years ago, said Carmen Rojas, an archaeologist quoted in the statement. "This makes southeastern Mexico one of the few areas with a proven prehistoric presence in America," said Rojas. The remains were found in the Las Palmas, El Templo and Naharoncaves, in an area previously thought to be uninhabited. They are not Mayas because they do not have the classic Mayan skull deformation. The woman found in Naharon cave, 368 meters from its entrance and 22.6 meters underground, was 1.41 meters' tall, weighed around 53 kg and was between 20 and 30 years old when she died. The woman found in Las Palmas cave was between 44 and 50 when she died. The body found in El Templo cave was a man aged between 25 and 30. His body was the least well preserved because it had been eroded and most of its organic material was gone. Archaeologists have worked since 2002 to exhume the bodies from underwater caverns, said the statement. In the past the region was dry but the caves were flooded due in the last thaw of the Pleistocene ice age, it said. Archaeological finds showed the region was probably used as a refuge and a graveyard, said the Institute. The archaeologists also found campfire remains. Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/ index.html Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Mound Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ index.html From hwavila at tutopia.com Wed Apr 11 08:30:21 2007 From: hwavila at tutopia.com (Henry Avila) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:30:21 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] =?windows-1252?q?Digging_for_the_truth=3A_El_misterio_de?= =?windows-1252?q?_las_pir=E1mides_Mayas?= Message-ID: <000001c77c3f$83e8bb80$7319a8c0@lan> El d?a de ayer (martes) vi el episodio de Buscando la Verdad (Digging for the truth) correspondiente a El Misterio de las Piramides Mayas. Fue un episodio muy interesante y comienza con la tumba m?s famosa de la historia maya, la tumba de Pakal El Grande, en Palenque. Una tumba ingeniosamente oculta dentro de la pir?mide de las inscripciones tras un corredor que llega a un muro sin salida. En la base del muro se encuentra la puerta hacia la tumba de Pakal. Pakal El Grande le dio gloria y hegemon?a a Palenque, en su tumba se encontraron diversos objetos de joyer?a y cer?mica, uno de los m?s sobresalientes es una m?scara de Jade con ojos de concha. Se puede apreciar tambi?n un relieve en donde se ve a Pakal atravesando el umbral hacia el m?s all?. Burnstein se pregunta entonces por qu? la forma de las pir?mides, y se va al siguiente destino; para comprender la transici?n entre la vida y la muerte, Burnstein recurre a la Biblia Maya, el Popol Vuj. Chichicastenango es un pueblo lleno de folclore y tradici?n maya mezclada con Cristianismo. En ese lugar el padre Fray Francisco Ximenez encuentra el libro del Popol Vuj (Libro del consejo en espa?ol). Este documento narra la creaci?n del mundo y las aventuras de Junajp? e Ixbalanqu?, dos semidioses que vencen a las fuerzas del m?s all? o "Xibalb?" el inframundo Maya. Luego Burnstein visita Gumarcaj, un lugar donde la comunidad maya contempor?nea todav?a realiza rituales y ceremonias mayas en una cuevas construidas debajo del sitio arqueol?gico. Para comprender el misterio de las pir?mides Mayas Burnstein recurre a uno de los lugares m?s simb?licos de los mayas: Las Cuevas de Candelaria. Para llegar ah? Burnstein hace una parada en "Cancu?n" en donde -seg?n ?l- se entrevistar? con una de las personas que m?s sabe sobre los mayas en la actualidad: Arthur D?marest. Arthur D?marest le explica a Burnstein que Cancu?n era un sitio que no ten?a pir?mides, s?lo palacios, esto se debe a que ellos consideraban las Cuevas de Candelaria una especie de Templo y la entrada hacia el inframundo o Xibalb?. Finalmente Burnstein navega por el cauce del r?o hasta las famosas Cuevas de Candelaria, unas hermosas cuevas rodeadas de flora y efectivamente se ve y se siente como la entrada hacia otro mundo. Hacia el inframundo, hacia Xibalb?. Para finalizar, Burnstein concluye que los Mayas hicieron las pir?mides con forma de cerro o monta?a simbolizando los lugares altos, e hicieron peque?os cuartos o entradas en las pir?mides simbolizando cuevas o entradas al inframundo. Atentamente, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Henry ?vila Arqueolog?a Maya http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arqueologiamaya ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hemos manipulado el ambiente en beneficio de la poblaci?n, ahora, manipulemos la poblaci?n en beneficio del ambiente". ______________________________ Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar m?s r?pido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos. From borgsted at sas.upenn.edu Wed Apr 11 12:48:50 2007 From: borgsted at sas.upenn.edu (borgsted at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:48:50 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] =?iso-8859-1?q?Call_for_Papers=3A_II_Congreso_Centroamer?= =?iso-8859-1?q?icano_de_Arqueolog=EDa=2C_El_Salvador?= Message-ID: <1176313730.461d1f821d165@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> II Congreso Centroamericano de Arqueolog?a El Salvador, octubre 2007 FIRST CALL FOR PAPERS El CONSEJO NACIONAL PARA LA CULTURA EL ARTE and El MUSEO NACIONAL DE ANTROPOLOG?A ?DR. DAVID J. GUZM?N, El Salvador, invite you to participate in the Second Central American Congress of Archaeology in El Salvador, entitled: Cultural Relations in Prehispanic Central America. October 23 to 26, 2007 ORGANIZING COMMITTEE: CONCULTURA MUSEO NACIONAL DE ANTROPOLOGIA- MUNA ASOCIACION AMIGOS DEL MUNA- AAMUNA FUNDACION NACIONAL DE ARQUEOLOGIA- FUNDAR OBJECTIVES To consolidate the space created by the I Congress for intellectual exchange among members of the local and regional academic community, including both professionals and students. To increase the number of foreign and national participants, so that they contribute to increase the scientific production on Central American studies. To guarantee that this event fills the expectations of the assistant academic community, in such a way that it contributes significantly to the development of the knowledge of the region. The development of the I Congreso de Arqueolog?a carried out in October of 2005, was an intellectual event without precedents in El Salvador, due both to the number of participants and the variety and quality of its contributors. Up to 39 scholarly papers were given and supported by 34 academic institutions, among them 18 universities of 10 countries, including Central American participants, as well as scholars from Europe, Canada, the United States and Mexico, among others. Also, 5 conferences directed to the big public and 2 round tables took place at the facilities of the Museo Nacional de Antropolog?a. Our diagnosis counted a total of 206 participants, among scholars, students, teachers, researchers and general public, besides a good number of special guests. The first Congress, woke up big expectations in the intellectual world, which contributed to indicate the public in general the importance of the reflection on our prehispanic history, essential element in the permanent construction of a Central America that recognizes its diversity and values the contributions of all its citizens. Following the format of the first one, the II Central American Congress of Archaeology in El Salvador will allow to present up to date advances in the fields of anthropological and archaeological investigation, linguistics and ethnohistory of the region. It will also create a favorable space for the discussion and debate of the produced works; as a result regional knowledge will be fomented among both local and foreigner scholars. Also this Congress will allow the planning of other regional activities such as courses, seminars, exchanges and publications. We are sure that with your presence, our II Congress will become the focus of academic life and fraternal coexistence in a Central American spirit. Please circulate among faculty, students, and scholars. Contact Information: Email: gbellosuazol at concultura.gob.sv; afe at sas.upenn.edu Web Pages : www.munaelsalvador.com and www.congresodearqueologia.org Telfax: El Salvador : (503) 243-3750, (503) 243-3827, (503) 243 3927 y (503) 243-3928 E.E.U.U. : (215) 2057038 From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Wed Apr 11 11:38:04 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nick Hopkins) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:38:04 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Tepache Message-ID: <4A1A48A5-02C3-4701-BAA3-2CB6876DF35A@mailer.fsu.edu> Santamaria's Diccionario de Mejicanismos derives tepache from "azt. tepiatl, bebida de ma?z," and Molina's Nahuatl dictionary has the entry tepiatl 'bebida de ma?z crudo." Just how this gets to be "tepache" is another question, but probably through the honorific/ diminutive form *tepia-tzin. Nick Hopkins From walter_argueta at telgua.com.gt Wed Apr 11 11:14:04 2007 From: walter_argueta at telgua.com.gt (Walter Osmar Argueta) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:14:04 -0600 Subject: [Aztlan] =?windows-1252?q?=5BArqueolog=EDa_Maya=5D_Digging_for_th?= =?windows-1252?q?e_truth=3A_El_misterio_de_las_pir=E1mides_Mayas?= References: <000001c77c3f$83e8bb80$7319a8c0@lan> Message-ID: <010601c77c54$6c678850$374610ac@telgua.com.gt> Excelente narraci?n Henry. Adicionalmente les comento que ahora si, en History Channel, el domingo 14 se transmitir? el documental de "Los Mayas" en Construyendo un Imperio. Era el que est?bamos esperando no. Henry o alguien en Guatemala, si pueden grabar dicho documental les agradecer?a una copia, [luego nos ponemos de acuerdo con el costo]. Reciban mis m?s sinceros saludos. ----- Original Message ----- From: Henry Avila To: Foro Aztlan ; Arqueolog?a Maya Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:30 AM Subject: [Arqueolog?a Maya] Digging for the truth: El misterio de las pir?mides Mayas El d?a de ayer (martes) vi el episodio de Buscando la Verdad (Digging for the truth) correspondiente a El Misterio de las Piramides Mayas. Fue un episodio muy interesante y comienza con la tumba m?s famosa de la historia maya, la tumba de Pakal El Grande, en Palenque. Una tumba ingeniosamente oculta dentro de la pir?mide de las inscripciones tras un corredor que llega a un muro sin salida. En la base del muro se encuentra la puerta hacia la tumba de Pakal. Pakal El Grande le dio gloria y hegemon?a a Palenque, en su tumba se encontraron diversos objetos de joyer?a y cer?mica, uno de los m?s sobresalientes es una m?scara de Jade con ojos de concha. Se puede apreciar tambi?n un relieve en donde se ve a Pakal atravesando el umbral hacia el m?s all?. Burnstein se pregunta entonces por qu? la forma de las pir?mides, y se va al siguiente destino; para comprender la transici?n entre la vida y la muerte, Burnstein recurre a la Biblia Maya, el Popol Vuj. Chichicastenango es un pueblo lleno de folclore y tradici?n maya mezclada con Cristianismo. En ese lugar el padre Fray Francisco Ximenez encuentra el libro del Popol Vuj (Libro del consejo en espa?ol). Este documento narra la creaci?n del mundo y las aventuras de Junajp? e Ixbalanqu?, dos semidioses que vencen a las fuerzas del m?s all? o "Xibalb?" el inframundo Maya. Luego Burnstein visita Gumarcaj, un lugar donde la comunidad maya contempor?nea todav?a realiza rituales y ceremonias mayas en una cuevas construidas debajo del sitio arqueol?gico. Para comprender el misterio de las pir?mides Mayas Burnstein recurre a uno de los lugares m?s simb?licos de los mayas: Las Cuevas de Candelaria. Para llegar ah? Burnstein hace una parada en "Cancu?n" en donde -seg?n ?l- se entrevistar? con una de las personas que m?s sabe sobre los mayas en la actualidad: Arthur D?marest. Arthur D?marest le explica a Burnstein que Cancu?n era un sitio que no ten?a pir?mides, s?lo palacios, esto se debe a que ellos consideraban las Cuevas de Candelaria una especie de Templo y la entrada hacia el inframundo o Xibalb?. Finalmente Burnstein navega por el cauce del r?o hasta las famosas Cuevas de Candelaria, unas hermosas cuevas rodeadas de flora y efectivamente se ve y se siente como la entrada hacia otro mundo. Hacia el inframundo, hacia Xibalb?. Para finalizar, Burnstein concluye que los Mayas hicieron las pir?mides con forma de cerro o monta?a simbolizando los lugares altos, e hicieron peque?os cuartos o entradas en las pir?mides simbolizando cuevas o entradas al inframundo. Atentamente, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Henry ?vila Arqueolog?a Maya http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arqueologiamaya ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hemos manipulado el ambiente en beneficio de la poblaci?n, ahora, manipulemos la poblaci?n en beneficio del ambiente". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visita www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar m?s r?pido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos. __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity a.. 4New Photos b.. 1New Files Visit Your Group Top Scientist 10 Greatest Ever Share and vote on Bix.com! Yahoo! News Entertainment News The latest on stars, movies, and more Yahoo! TV Get American Idol recaps, pics and much more! . __,_._,___ From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Apr 11 14:02:32 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:02:32 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Tepache Message-ID: <20070411181954.3451.qmail@hermes.potsdam.edu> >Santamaria's Diccionario de Mejicanismos derives >tepache from "azt. tepiatl, bebida de ma?z," and >Molina's Nahuatl dictionary has the entry >tepiatl 'bebida de ma?z crudo." Just how this >gets to be "tepache" is another question, but >probably through the honorific/diminutive form *tepia-tzin. There is a parallel discussion going on in the nahuatl at lists.famsi.org discussion list. In spite of what Santamaria wrote, in all likelihood it comes from: pachtli - something crushed The one outstanding question is the role of the te- prefix Te- usually is the nonspecific human object marker or the nonspecific possessive, e.g.: temictiani (he routinely kills someone = murderer) or tenantzin (someone's honorable mother). There is no clear way that "tepiatl" could end up "tepache" under the rules of Nahuatl phonology. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Wed Apr 11 16:25:06 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nicholas Hopkins) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:25:06 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Tepache Message-ID: <9C0343A2-017A-4B7C-93C3-C9E59F0DB058@mailer.fsu.edu> "There is no clear way that "tepiatl" could end up "tepache" under the rules of Nahuatl phonology," John F. Schwaller Right, I agree. But if the loanword to Spanish is based on tepiatzin, not tepiatl, there are parallel loan words that end up having "che" in place of "tzin." So it's not a question of Nahuatl phonology, but the assimilation of Nahuatl words to Spanish. Nick Hopkins From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Apr 11 20:39:20 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Tepache In-Reply-To: <9C0343A2-017A-4B7C-93C3-C9E59F0DB058@mailer.fsu.edu> References: <9C0343A2-017A-4B7C-93C3-C9E59F0DB058@mailer.fsu.edu> Message-ID: <1153.137.143.69.91.1176341960.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> What I failed to mention is that Molina and others do have words with the morpheme "tepach" in them, showing that it existed, in all likelihood, in Nahuatl before being borrowed into Spanish. > "There is no clear way that "tepiatl" could end up > "tepache" under the rules of Nahuatl phonology," John F. Schwaller > > Right, I agree. But if the loanword to Spanish is based on > tepiatzin, not tepiatl, there are parallel loan words that end up > having "che" in place of "tzin." So it's not a question of Nahuatl > phonology, but the assimilation of Nahuatl words to Spanish. > > Nick Hopkins > > -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu From michaelruggeri at mac.com Wed Apr 11 21:43:46 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:43:46 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICES AT TEOTIHUACAN WERE FOREIGNERS Message-ID: Ancient Mexicans Took Sacrifice Victims From Afar 11/04/2007 23:56 MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Ancient Mexicans brought human sacrifice victims from hundreds of miles (km) away over centuries to sanctify a pyramid in the oldest city in North America, an archaeologist said on Wednesday. DNA tests on the skeletons of more than 50 victims discovered in 2004 in the Pyramid of the Moon at the Teotihuacan ruins revealed they were from far away Mayan, Pacific or Atlantic coastal cultures. The bodies, many of which were decapitated, dated from between 50 AD and 500 AD and were killed at different times to dedicate new stages of construction of the pyramid just north of Mexico City. The victims were likely either captured in war or obtained through some kind of diplomacy, said archaeologist Ruben Cabrera, who led the excavation at the pyramid, the smaller of two main pyramids are Teotihuacan, which housed some 200,000 inhabitants at its height of power around 500 AD. "Teotihuacan may have had a tradition of capturing prisoners for sacrifice," said Cabrera. Ancient Mexican civilisations like the Aztecs sacrificed humans by cutting their hearts out but researchers are not sure how the victims at Teotihuacan were killed. Little is known about the race that inhabited Teotihuacan or what language they spoke. The site, Mexico?s oldest major archaeological site, was revered by later Mesoamerican civilisations, including the Aztecs, who gave it its current name, meaning "The place where gods are made" in their Nahuatl language. Teotihuacan icons found in far away Mayan ruins in Guatemala and Honduras show the city?s broad reach. Littered among the victims? bodies at the pyramid are remains of animals that had symbolic importance including pumas, coyotes, eagles and snakes as well as a large number of precious objects like obsidian knives. Discoveries in the early 1980s of sacrificial victims and weapons skewered previous theories that Teotihuacan had a peaceful culture, unlike the warlike Aztecs and Maya. "Researchers always tried to throw a little fog over it, but there was human sacrifice even if we don?t know if it had to do with wars," said Cabrera. Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/ index.html Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Mound Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ index.html From casal at infotex.com.pe Thu Apr 12 07:15:08 2007 From: casal at infotex.com.pe (Mario Cabrejos) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:15:08 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Chewing and spitting Message-ID: <01a101c77cfc$36181820$0201a8c0@MARIO> From: "John F. Schwaller" Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 > Chicha of various sorts can be found throughout the Americas. It is > also very popular in the Andes. In Inca times women would chew corn > sprouts, and spit the mixture into bowls for fermentation. The > salivary enzymes created a product not unlike "Light" beer. ------------------------------------------ Hola John First time I read that corn chicha was (is) made by spitting... What is still on use in the amazon rainforest is to chew and spit the washed casava (Manihot esculenta) root paste in order to prepare casava "beer". Regards Mario From brokaw at buffalo.edu Thu Apr 12 09:46:13 2007 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:46:13 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Tepache In-Reply-To: <1153.137.143.69.91.1176341960.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> References: <9C0343A2-017A-4B7C-93C3-C9E59F0DB058@mailer.fsu.edu> <1153.137.143.69.91.1176341960.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> Message-ID: <1176389173.461e4635cc7d2@mail2.buffalo.edu> On the nahuatl list, John Sullivan mentioned that ?pachtli? can refer to the pulp that is produced when you crush cane or other fruits to get juice. Presumably this is done or at least would have originally been done with a stone. The verbal form ?tepachoa? means ?apedrear,? with the ?te? element from ?tetl,? which means stone. So if the Nahuatl word ?tepachtli? refers to a kind of drink, and again on the Nahuatl list Barry Sell cited a document where it does, and if this substantive form is related to the verbal ?tepachoa,? which it seems to be, then the ?te? in ?tepachtli? would also be from ?tetl.? So ?tepachtli? would mean ?something stone-crushed.? John?s point was that the semantic-morophological logic of "pachtli" as "pulp" seems to be based on the relationship between the process and the product. "Tepachtli," then, would appear to be a more specific variant of the more generic term "pachtli." So, the semantic-morphological logic of "tepachtli" would be that the drink is produced as a result of ?stone-crushing? the cane or the fruit, thus it is something stone-crushed. And the hispanicization of ?tepachtli? would easily produce ?tepache.? We get ?aguacate? from ?ahuacatl? and ?pozole? from ?pozolli.? If these words are indicative of the general tendency in the hispanicization of Nahuatl nouns, then the tendency seems to be: with noun stems that end in a vowel, the "tl" absolutive suffix drops the ?l? and adds an ?e?, as in ahuacatl=aguacate; with noun stems that end in a consonant, the "tli" absolutive suffix drops the ?tl? and changes the ?i? to an ?e,? as in pozolli=pozole. In Nahuat when you have noun stems that end in "l", the absolutive suffix "tli" loses its "t"; so pozoltli becomes pozolli. So "pozolli" is not the clearest illustrative example, because it has already dropped the "t" of its absolutive suffix. But it was the only one I can think of at the moment. Galen Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > What I failed to mention is that Molina and others do have words with > the > morpheme "tepach" in them, showing that it existed, in all > likelihood, in > Nahuatl before being borrowed into Spanish. > > > > > "There is no clear way that "tepiatl" could end up > > "tepache" under the rules of Nahuatl phonology," John F. Schwaller > > > > Right, I agree. But if the loanword to Spanish is based on > > tepiatzin, not tepiatl, there are parallel loan words that end up > > having "che" in place of "tzin." So it's not a question of > Nahuatl > > phonology, but the assimilation of Nahuatl words to Spanish. > > > > Nick Hopkins > > > > > > > -- > John F. Schwaller > President, > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > schwallr at potsdam.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > From mayavase at verizon.net Thu Apr 12 09:52:21 2007 From: mayavase at verizon.net (Justin Kerr) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:52:21 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Chewing and spitting In-Reply-To: <01a101c77cfc$36181820$0201a8c0@MARIO> Message-ID: <007901c77d12$2d2b8a60$6701a8c0@justnew> Dear Friends, I have posted a picture of a Shipibo vessel of the type that is used for fermentation. This one measures 32 inches and 28 inches at the widest point. www.mayavase.com/shipibo vessel.jpg My understanding is that the vessel sits in sand up to the point where the decoration starts, so that the conical bottom is totally covered. Justin Kerr -----Original Message----- From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Mario Cabrejos Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:15 AM To: LISTA AZTLAN Subject: [Aztlan] Chewing and spitting From: "John F. Schwaller" Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 > Chicha of various sorts can be found throughout the Americas. It is > also very popular in the Andes. In Inca times women would chew corn > sprouts, and spit the mixture into bowls for fermentation. The > salivary enzymes created a product not unlike "Light" beer. ------------------------------------------ Hola John First time I read that corn chicha was (is) made by spitting... What is still on use in the amazon rainforest is to chew and spit the washed casava (Manihot esculenta) root paste in order to prepare casava "beer". Regards Mario _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From casal at infotex.com.pe Thu Apr 12 21:58:00 2007 From: casal at infotex.com.pe (Mario Cabrejos) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:58:00 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] conical bottom on chicha vessels References: <007901c77d12$2d2b8a60$6701a8c0@justnew> Message-ID: <026501c77d77$8bf70370$0201a8c0@MARIO> > Dear Friends, Hola Justin. ------------------------- > My understanding is that the vessel sits in sand up to the point > where the decoration starts, so that the conical bottom is totally > covered. What I know is that the conical botton is used as a pivotal point that helps to incline the piece and serve the masato to the people that gathers around the vessel, so it should be "free" to reach maximun inclination. Sand or a vegetable ring could be used if the intention is to mantain the vessel standing up alone. The same principle works in the aribalo, the Inca chica vessel, sometimes so big (have seen some almost 5 feet tall) that has a hand piece and two handles. Saludos cordiales, Mario From eschele at austin.rr.com Thu Apr 12 22:14:45 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:14:45 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Preserving Ancient Maya Inscriptions Message-ID: <000f01c77d79$e3827140$6401a8c0@gis> >From the Harvard University Gazette Online http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2007/04.12/01-yaxpre.html Harvard researchers head south to preserve ancient inscriptions By Alvin Powell Harvard News Office Researchers from the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology are preparing to head into the Central American rain forest to begin an ambitious, multiyear project to scan and digitize fading Maya inscriptions and carvings. The expedition, by the Corpus of Maya Hieroglyphic Inscriptions Program (CMHI), will focus on Yaxchilan, an ancient Maya city on the Usumacinta River, which forms the border between Mexico and Guatemala. The CMHI's mission since its formation in 1968 is to record and disseminate information pertaining to all ancient Maya hieroglyphic inscriptions and their associated iconography. During the height of its power, Yaxchilan dominated the Usumacinta region, its influence peaking during the eighth century. Located in modern-day Mexico and reachable only by boat, today it is known for its excellent carvings and narrative inscriptions. The nine-member team will employ advanced technology in an effort to preserve the elaborate Maya hieroglyphics, images, and stone carvings that are free-standing or decorate various buildings at Yaxchilan. Researchers will use an optical scanner to create a digital, three-dimensional image of each carving. The image will be stored in a computer file, much like a word document or a photograph. It can be examined, shared digitally, and even "printed out," layer by layer, on a special, 3-D printer that creates a three-dimensional reproduction of the carving. Barbara Fash, director of the Corpus of Maya Hieroglyphic Inscriptions Program, said Yaxchilan was chosen because it has many different types of monuments on which the new technology can be tested. Its rain forest setting will also test the equipment in a humid, tropical environment. Archaeologists have long recognized that the carvings on Maya monuments are imperiled and have mounted various efforts to preserve them, including removing them to museums, creating paper molds that were used to make plaster casts, and, more recently, making latex molds of the monuments. The effort has raced the natural degradation caused by the wind and weather, and, in recent decades, by the corrosive forces of acid rain. Human destruction is an important factor as well, as some monuments have been defaced, others stolen by looters, and still others broken up by local people to be used in construction projects. Every carving that is lost, and every detail of surviving carvings that has faded away has taken with it an opportunity to learn more about the ancient Maya civilization, according to Fash. The effort to decipher the Maya's written Mayan language is ongoing and the small dots and squiggles carved alongside images of coronations and other aspects of Maya life are critical details in understanding the history that underlies each image. Using the digital files of the monuments, researchers hope to resurrect some lost details. Peabody archives hold 50,000 photographs of Maya monuments, some of which contain lost details of the monuments. By digitizing the images and combining them with the soon-to-be-created 3-D images, researchers hope to be able to re-create the monuments as they existed decades ago. If the field trial is successful, the Corpus plans to visit other important Maya sites, recording as many carvings and monuments as possible to preserve them for the future. From sarthurmorris at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 22:10:37 2007 From: sarthurmorris at gmail.com (S.A. Morris) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:10:37 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Kings of Stone Message-ID: Looking for a copy of: David Stuart's *1996 Kings of Stone: A Consideration of Ancient Stelae in Maya Ritual and Representation.* RES, 29-30: 148-71. Tulane and Loyola Universities don't have it. Thanks, Arthur From eschele at austin.rr.com Fri Apr 13 07:37:26 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 07:37:26 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Dave Stuart's New Weblog Message-ID: <003301c77dc8$7e4068b0$6401a8c0@gis> Dear Listeros, David Stuart has started a weblog devoted to ancient Maya glyph decipherment and observations. He says that "I'm hoping other epigraphers besides me will contribute so we can circulate serious ideas in a semi-formal way." To see his first posts go to: http://decipherment.wordpress.com/about/ He asks that everyone circulate this link to those you think interested. Elaine From eschele at austin.rr.com Fri Apr 13 10:31:24 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:31:24 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Xibun Archaeological Research Project Message-ID: <004501c77de0$cbf3d750$6401a8c0@gis> Hello Everyone, I just discovered a great website about the Sibun River Valley (2001 and 2003 seasons) with two links where you can download the entire reports or just sections of them. They are posted on a Boston University website and are edited reports on the archaeology of the Sibun River Valley with many writer-contributors. The first one has some great info on caves in that area. Between the Gorge and the Estuary: Archaeological Investigations of the 2001 Season of the Xibun Archaeological Research Project http://www.bu.edu/tricia/reports/xarp2003/index.shtml And then another that is from the 2003 season Sibun Valley from Late Classic through Colonial Times: Investigations of the 2003 Season of the Xibun Archaeological Research Project http://www.bu.edu/tricia/reports/xarp2004/index.shtml Enjoy, Elaine From jglsharpe at msn.com Sat Apr 14 11:49:18 2007 From: jglsharpe at msn.com (jglsharpe Sharpe) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:49:18 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine In-Reply-To: <002501c77af1$a9f71dc0$7319a8c0@lan> Message-ID: Hi, Many years ago while I was in San Cristobal De Las Casas we had wandered into a Mayan fiesta one evening at a church on the outskirts of town. We were the only gringos there. We were invited to drink what sounded to me like "posh" or Potch", which must be the "tepache" mentioned in other postings. It was in a very large kettle, simmering over a