From kat at hallofmaat.com Sun Apr 1 11:01:22 2007 From: kat at hallofmaat.com (Katherine Reece) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 10:01:22 -0600 Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux References: <460F295A.4050302@chicanoforums.com> Message-ID: <038301c77477$0d774900$6401a8c0@kat> She always said that it was the Spanish who invented the lie that Moctezuma thought Cortez was a god. Moreover, that Quetzalcoatl was "white" as in looking at the bright son. But she also said he was yellow in the same respect. http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=90 This is an article that we've reproduced (with permission) at my site. The article is "Burying the White Gods" by Camilla Townsend, hopefully it will add to the Quetaztcoatl discussion here. Kat Reece Owner / Head Moderator In the Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com Amun Owner / Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amun Contributing author to the book "Archaeological Fantasies: How pseudoarchaeology misrepresents the past and misleads the public" http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=97 Kat's Personal Page http://www.katherinereece.com/ From birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 1 11:43:16 2007 From: birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com (jeremy smith) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 09:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] collander-type ceramic vessel Message-ID: <605214.91446.qm@web60121.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Everybody, Jumping back to the possible uses of a collander ceramic vessel, seems like the Maya may have made a corn wine like the tesguino of the Tarahumara. Nikolai Grube (2001;32) wrote in a book titled "Maya - Divine Kings of the Rain Forest": "Europeans first encountered cacao in the year 1502, when Columbus on his fourth journey to the Gulf of Honduras, came across a large Maya trading canoe that measured over 40 m (131 ft.) in length, if the story recounted by his son Ferdinand is to be believed. Not only was the canoe laiden with metates (or grinding stones), copper items, fabrics and vessels, it also contained roots and grains, and a type of wine made from maize." David --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. From drd30 at columbia.edu Sun Apr 1 11:56:52 2007 From: drd30 at columbia.edu (Dan) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 12:56:52 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux In-Reply-To: <000901c7740a$a88b1290$03095b42@marthadf530wyg> Message-ID: I'm struck by the fact that so much recent literature, and this discussion, tends toward polarization on the question of the Quetzalcoatl-Cortes relationship---those starting with an uncritical read of Sahagun's Book 12 assertion that Moctezuma believed in and acted on the Q-C connection, versus those who (with Lockhart, Gillespie and others) suggest that the "Caxtilteca" were seen as merely another alteptl group and that the Q-C association is just a post-Conquest imposition. Either view, in isolation, seems a little too rigid and too condescending---insisting on an either/or interpretation of behavior that was likely susceptible to multiple motivations and impulses. As Martha here touches on, the reality must almost certainly have reflected the sophistication and complexity of Nahua perspectives---across the gamut from hard-headed real-politik to absurd superstitions. Did Moctezuma believe he was facing Quetzalcoatl? Who knows, but don't forget to ask, "when?" An argument that the Mexica believed they were still battling deities after the Spanish sojurn in Tenochtitlan in 1519-20 assumes the Mexica were idiots---whatever currency any possible Cortes-Quetzalcoatl connection MIGHT have had when the Spaniards were still fighting mosquitoes on Veracruz beaches in early 1519, would have rapidly dissolved with subsequent contact. But what about those first weeks, when Mexica leadership was making crucial decisions about how to respond to the Spaniards? Now, it is possible that GWB got born again solely to help his Texas political prospects, and very possible that Tenocha heavyweights used religion solely as a cynical mechanism of social control. But state religion, even when used opportunistically, tends to acquire a life of its own, and it's hard to believe that Moctezuma and his advisors would have excluded religious explanatations of Castilian origins. These people, Spaniards very much included, WERE inclined to see the hand of supernatural agency everywhere. And, with all due respect to the just-another-altepetl view, there would seem to have been (to Nahua eyes) some strikingly unique characteristics---including some very frightening aspects---about the Castilian newcomers. In light of how routinely religion was employed to explain, predict and influence the behavior of the natural world and of people, why expect otherwise in Mexica approaches to sizing up the Castilians? And wasn't Q part of the pantheon pre-Conquest deities (in varying degrees of prominence depending on area), and is there really no basis for some version of a pre-Conquest Quetzalcoatl "return" myth, curious calendrical connections, and the origins in the East? My guess is that there was a pretty lively debate in Tenochtitlan among those privvy to reports from the coast as to who these people were. And ---especially in light of Sahagun and the richness of detail provided (remember those outfits that were prepared as gifts for Cortes?)---the possibility of the Castilians as gods, and of the Quetzalcoatl connection in particular, would have been a logical part of that debate. Dan Deneen Norwich, VT > -----Original Message----- > From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org > [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]On Behalf Of martha noyes > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 11:06 PM > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux > > > Aloha all > > To a like matter, the identification of a European explorer with > a deity prophesied to return, Marshall Sahlins's "How Natives > Think" (University of Chicago Press) makes a fair argument that > yes, there was recognition of a prophecy fulfilled, but no, not > in the way Europeans understood/understand it. Sahlins's point > is that deities, at least major deities, have more than one form > or appearance, and that just as a priest or chief "stands for" a > deity at certain times, so, too may an outsider/foreigner, just > as an animal, celestial phenomenon, or a geographical element > does. This "standing for" a deity is sometimes, maybe often, > restricted to a specific circumstance - a ritual period or > function - after which circumstance the stand-in is again a mortal. > > Some cultures are quite comfortable with a "both/and" view. > > my two cents > Martha > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > From aztlandave at yahoo.com Sun Apr 1 12:59:26 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 10:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <134021.78880.qm@web37006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Estimados Listeros, While I deeply respect the comments by Dan , I would propose that the arguments made by Gillespie and others are a bit more nuanced than he implies. Rather than a polarized view of "Quetzalcoatl as Cortez" as a myth vs. history, I read Gillespie's discussion as a fascinating view into how history is constructed in the first place. Her focus is not actually the Q-C connection, but the history of king lists (both Toltec and Aztec). She takes a very hard look at the king lists and notes how history must be viewed as constructed (rather than simply recorded). This has been driven home to me by the recent work at Mayapan and Chichen Itza, where archaeological excavations have shown that the ethnohistorical accounts cannot be taken at face value. We must examine why certain perspectives were widely accepted, and when they were adopted as "history". Many Maya Archaeologists working at Yucatecan sites currently believe that Chichen Itza was never overrun by the Toltecs, and that Mayapan was not controlled in its final days by Aztec garrisons (despite the clear passages in Spanish and Maya texts that tell us otherwise). Similarly, the list of Toltec kings, including the kingly manifestation of Quetzalcoatl (constructed by the Aztecs centuries later), may also be a conflated history, as might the Q-C connection. However, none of this implies that the Aztec kings and later historians NEVER made the hypothetical connection between Quetzalcoatl and Cortez. As Dan stated, these theories may have crept up during various stages of the conquest (or even post-conquest). History is not immutable. It is based within a constant dialogue with the present. I?d love to hear more thoughts on this topic. It (combined with other ethnohistorical mysteries, such as the chronologies of Mayapan and Chichen Itza) strike to the core of what different disciplines can bring to the table (archaeology, history, ethnohistory, cultural anthropology, etc. etc.). Aztlan is a perfect format to hear all sides of the story. Saludos, -Dave --- Dan wrote: > I'm struck by the fact that so much recent > literature, and this discussion, > tends toward polarization on the question of the > Quetzalcoatl-Cortes > relationship---those starting with an uncritical > read of Sahagun's Book 12 > assertion that Moctezuma believed in and acted on > the Q-C connection, versus > those who (with Lockhart, Gillespie and others) > suggest that the > "Caxtilteca" were seen as merely another alteptl > group and that the Q-C > association is just a post-Conquest imposition. > Either view, in isolation, > seems a little too rigid and too > condescending---insisting on an either/or > interpretation of behavior that was likely > susceptible to multiple > motivations and impulses . ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu Sun Apr 1 14:02:23 2007 From: Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu (Sam Edgerton) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 15:02:23 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Listeros: The most respected proponent of the C as Q legend was the late H.B.Nicholson, I am trying to locate a copy of his "The Return of Quetzalcoatl: Did it Play a Role in the Conquest of Mexico?" (Labrynthos, 2001) from which to re-present some of his arguments. In any case, I believe {from personal conversations with Nick that he would have seconded many of Dave Hixson's comments about the universal human urge to launder history in favor of local politics ("History is not immutable. It is based within a constant dialogue with the present"), and as Dan Deneen reminded, "these [C as Q] theories may have crept up during various stages of the conquest (or even post-conquest)." I have recently read a remarkable book relevant to this thread: "Kingship" by Francis Oakley (Blackwell, 2006) which, even though it concentrates on the history of "cosmic kingship" in the West from ancient classic times through the Christian era, reveals how closely the concept was thoroughly associated with divinity in whatever form everywhere in the pre-modern world including pre-conquest Mesoamerica. He includes a brief chapter on the latter and even has as the cover illustration for the whole book, the famous bust of Janaab Pakal I as Young Maize God (as photographed by Jorge Perez de Lara!). Sam Edgerton From michaelruggeri at mac.com Sun Apr 1 14:22:28 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 14:22:28 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Message-ID: Listeros, When Sam first mentioned this book I went to Amazon and Powell's books to order it and they did not have it but I found it at Abe's Books and ordered it there. They may have more copies if any of you want a copy. Mike Ruggeri On Apr 1, 2007, at 2:02 PM, Sam Edgerton wrote: > Listeros: The most respected proponent of the C as Q legend was the > late > H.B.Nicholson, I am trying to locate a copy of his > "The Return of Quetzalcoatl: Did it Play a Role in the Conquest of > Mexico?" > (Labrynthos, 2001) from which to re-present some of his arguments. > In any > case, I believe {from personal conversations with Nick that he > would have > seconded many of Dave Hixson's comments about the universal human > urge to > launder history in favor of local politics ("History is not > immutable. It > is based within a constant dialogue with the present"), and as Dan > Deneen > reminded, "these [C as Q] theories may have crept up during > various stages of the conquest (or even post-conquest)." > I have recently read a remarkable book relevant to this thread: > "Kingship" > by Francis Oakley (Blackwell, 2006) which, even though it > concentrates on > the history of "cosmic kingship" in the West from ancient classic > times > through the Christian era, reveals how closely the concept was > thoroughly > associated with divinity in whatever form everywhere in the pre-modern > world including pre-conquest Mesoamerica. He includes a brief > chapter on > the latter and even has as the cover illustration for the whole > book, the > famous bust of Janaab Pakal I as Young Maize God (as photographed > by Jorge > Perez de Lara!). > Sam Edgerton > From michaelruggeri at mac.com Sun Apr 1 17:07:48 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 17:07:48 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] MORE APRIL ANCIENT AMERICA LECTURES Message-ID: April 18, 8:00-9:30 PM Institute of Maya Studies Lecture ?Sacred Space, Sacred Time: Ritual and Procession in Postclassic Maya Codices and Murals? One of the primary themes of the art and texts produced during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries in the northern Maya lowlands involves rituals that delimit sacred space ? the four world directions plus the center, or features of the natural and built environment that represent stopping points during ritual circuits of the landscape. The passage of time is also a key feature of these images and texts that is often expressed metaphorically by references to walking along a road or the stopping of the traveler?s footsteps at significant moments during the journey. In this presentation, Gabrielle Vail examines a selection of almanacs from the Maya codices and scenes from murals painted at Tulum and Santa Rita that exemplify conceptions of time and space within the context of Postclassic Maya cosmology and worldview. Dr. Gabrielle Vail received her B.A. from New College of Florida and her M.A. and Ph.D. from Tulane University. She has research appointments at New College of Florida in Sarasota and the Middle American Research Institute at Tulane and is director of the Florida Institute for Hieroglyphic Research in Palmetto, FL. Her research focuses on the Maya codices, with an emphasis on their ritual content and hieroglyphic texts. With funding from NEH, she and Christine Hern?ndez are completing a database and commentary of the Maya codices, available on-line at www.mayacodices.org. Vail is the co-editor of four volumes, including The Madrid Codex: New Approaches to Understanding an Ancient Maya Manuscript (with Anthony Aveni; UP of Colorado, 2004) and The Bricker Almanac: A Festschrift in Honor of Harvey and Victoria Bricker (published by Human Mosaic, Tulane University, 2006). She has published over twenty articles and book chapters on the Maya codices and a monograph entitled The Archaeology of Coastal Belize (British Archaeological Reports, Oxford, 1988). She leads a glyph study group at New College and has taught hieroglyphic workshops since 1992. Miami Museum of Science, 3280 South Miami Avenue, across from Vizcaya, Maya Hotline: 305-235-1192 http://mayastudies.org _____ April 25, 8:00-9:30 PM Institute of Maya Studies Lecture ?A Overview of the Maya and a Visit to Tulum? with narration by Jim Reed. Recently, Jim Reed, was program leader and guide on a Carnival Cruise to the Yucat?n. He prepared this educational video to show onboard to help prepare the 52 folks who eventually made their way to the Maya site of Tulum. Come and view this informative video, shown for the first time ? not in international waters! Jim Reed is an avid Maya aficionado, current editor of the Institute of Maya Studies newsletter and past president of the Institute (2000). Among his other endeavors and interests, he also leads group tours to the Mayalands. To join in on a Maya adventure to Copan and the Guatemalan Highlands, July 28 to August 5, along with John Major Jenkins, author of Maya Cosmogenisis 2012, call 404-680-1644 for more details. Miami Museum of Science, 3280 South Miami Avenue, across from Vizcaya, Maya Hotline: 305-235-1192 http://mayastudies.org Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html From jules at cafecancun.com Sun Apr 1 18:28:21 2007 From: jules at cafecancun.com (Jules Siegel) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 18:28:21 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Message-ID: <46104015.7090405@cafecancun.com> michael ruggeri wrote: > Listeros, > > When Sam first mentioned this book I went to Amazon and Powell's > books to order it and they did not have it but I found it at Abe's > Books and ordered it there. They may have more copies if any of you > want a copy. > > Mike Ruggeri > > Are you sure you ordered "The Return of Quetzalcoatl: Did it Play a Role in the Conquest of Mexico?" by H. B. Nicholson I searched for it yesterday on abebooks.com and came up only with "The Return of Quetzalcoatl" by David Pinchbeck, which is a novel. Searching the Web, I found "Nicholson, H. B. The return of Quetzalcoatl: did it play a role in the Conquest of Mexico?" . --. Lancaster, Calif.: Labyrinthos, 2001. 22 p. F 1221 L2 C647, which is a listing in a Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico bibliography -- http://www.201.122.2.242/biblioteca/boletines/2006/BNA_0602.pdf or *http://tinyurl.com/3947gt* -- JULES SIEGEL Apdo. 1764, 77501-Cancun, Q. Roo, Mexico http://www.cafecancun.com/bookarts Newsroom-l, news and issues for journalists http://www.newsroom-l.net/ From marcemusic at yahoo.com Sun Apr 1 16:22:11 2007 From: marcemusic at yahoo.com (Marcelo Donadello) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 18:22:11 -0300 (ART) Subject: [Aztlan] 1491, Quetzalcoatl and reality In-Reply-To: <134021.78880.qm@web37006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <940962.40185.qm@web55506.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Listeros Evidentemente es una discusion que se basa en la bibliograf?a. Pero es de tener en cuenta que Cortes estaba compelido por su propia religiosidad a no hacer demasiado alarde de una posible identificacion "Q-C" en sus comunicaciones con el rey de Espa?a. Por otro lado si es cierto que para el mundo americano prehispanico todo estaba un poco m?s ligado a lo religioso que en el nuestro, como ha sido en toda civilizacion hasta que se intensific? el papel del dinero y otros agentes de manejo del discurso y el poder, la contracara de esta justificacion de la identificacion Q-C es que la misma explicacion le resta importancia. Cortes era Quetzalcoatl, ok... en la medida y la manera que Moteczuma era Huitzilopotli. Si -quiz?s - era m?s extra?o, m?s sorprendente, era porque ten?a caballos, hierro, p?lvora, etc. Porque era extra?o. Si perd?a iba a ser una extra?a an?cdota en un mundo que estaba y est? lleno de ellas. Ultima: un lector - y aun un escritor, un estudioso - de nuestros dias se asombra del asombro que producian los caballos, y no de los caballos, y en eso se aleja de la civilizacion que pretende estar estudiando o describiendo; cuando se asombra de la religion como parte de toda la concepcion del mundo, entiende y explica las cosas desde una perspectiva totalmente equivocada. Las "verdades" religiosas de una epoca y un lugar son tan verdades como que el dinero es dinero y no papel (aqui y ahora). mis "dos centavos" ;) Marcelo Donadello --------------------------------- Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?. Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). Probalo ya! From chunchucmil at yahoo.com Mon Apr 2 08:38:32 2007 From: chunchucmil at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 06:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] 1491 and Quetazlcoatl redux In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Message-ID: <896446.80513.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I would like to point out that this topic (Aztec Ethnohistory and Quetzalcoatl) has been a popular one for many years on Aztlan, as can be seen from the two submissions by Brant Gardner to the original "Aztlan E-Journal" hosted by John Hoopes. http://web.ku.edu/~hoopes/aztlan/ The papers contained on this website are all excellent resources. -Dave ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From aztlandave at yahoo.com Mon Apr 2 14:33:39 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] T528 as "stone" In-Reply-To: <896446.80513.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <883245.88281.qm@web37011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I could look this up in my library, but I'm a bit busy with some other Aztlan/FAMSI issues at the moment... Would anyone out there mind outlining how the T528 glyph came to be translated as "tun" (stone)? This specific question arose during some off-list discussions involving fellow listeros, so I'm sure they'd appreciate any response (I can forward the answers if folks would rather respond to me directly). Many thanks, -Dave ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From gregory_sandor at hotmail.com Mon Apr 2 18:47:36 2007 From: gregory_sandor at hotmail.com (Greg Sandor) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 18:47:36 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Templo Mayor dedication date? References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Message-ID: Is it known on what date the 1487 dedication of the final phase of the Templo Mayor occurred? Was it during the equinox or solstice or some other astronomically significant event? Regards, Greg (614) 517-7204 greg at gregsandor.com http://www.gregsandor.com From Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu Mon Apr 2 18:00:40 2007 From: Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu (Sam Edgerton) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:00:40 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Nicholson's latest conclusions about C-Q Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20070402183400.024178f8@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Hello Listeros, whoever of you are still not bored with the ever recurrent C-Q question. My friend Eloise Quinones-Keber, very close colleague of Nick, at this moment in his very library preparing an obit, has generously read again that evasive 2001 article expressing Nick's latest thoughts on the controversy. I asked her to review the pamphlet, which she so kindly did, and here is her brief analysis: just received "Sam, The first 12 pages of Nick's article summarize the various Q sources. The next 3 contain his "discussion" or conclusion: He says that a review of the primary sources..."contained some mention of the expected return of Topiltzin Q--and often a connection was made between this prophecy and the arrival of the Spaniards." Then he discusses "problems" with the MII to Cortes speech and its reiteration. He again concludes: "In my view, Cort?s report of this speech, even if somewhat garbled, does provide significant support for the pre-Hispanic existence of the belief under consideration. There is no question here of "missionary influence." It seems extremely improbable that it was entirely fabricated by Cortes." He thinks that the obvious missionary-inspired Christian elements in some accounts, which has led some to argue that the "return of Q" tradition was a post-conquest invention, does not, in his view, negate the possibility of its pre-Hispanic existence and its influence on M's conduct. He believes it fits into the cyclical aspect of Meso calendrics, that other deceased Central Mexican leaders were also expected to return, and the coincidence of 1 Acatl (year connected with TQ) = 1519 cannot be ignored. Nevertheless he recognizes the evidence is "thin and "uneven" and as with so many historical questions, it may be impossible to demonstrate conclusively one way or the other." Eloise" Thanks! Sam Edgerton From triplebrook at comcast.net Mon Apr 2 19:48:31 2007 From: triplebrook at comcast.net (Harold H. Green) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 17:48:31 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] "Year bearer" Message-ID: Listeros: Thanks to those who responded to my earlier query regarding "tuun" and "haab'". I now find that I am equally troubled (and the research I have done only adds to my confusion) as to whether "haab'" is restricted to the "chronological unit" of the Long Count (360) and to the 360-day cycle, successive completions of which were recorded on "lakam tuuns" (stelae) as "period endings," or whether it was also actually used by the ancient Maya to refer to the so- called "vague year" of 365 days. As quoted in my earlier post, Thompson states quite clearly that "there was no year of 365 days, but one of 360 days, to the end of which were added the five nameless days" (Thompson 1950:121). Long (1925) took the same position. The term "year bearer" has become entrenched in the literature as referring to the four days of the 260-day cycle that coincide with what is invariably assumed to be the beginning of a new vague year (365-day cycle)(I believe there are three "sets" of "year bearers," the K'an set,", the "Ak'bal set" and the "Ik' set," depending on the time and place being considered). However, these four days of the 260-day cycle could just as easily, just as consistently, refer to the commencement of a new 360-day cycle, if Thompson is correct that "there was no year of 365 days, but one of 360 days, to the end of which were added the five unnamed days." If Thompson is right about 360 vs. 365, and "haab'" means 360 days and cannot be shown to have been used by the ancient Maya to apply also to a period of 365 days, then the so-called "year bearer" would more correctly be referred to as as the "bearer of the haab'" (haab' meaning only 360-day cycle). And indeed, the Books of Chilam Balam refer to "ahcuch haab" which has been translated as "year bearer" (referring to 365-day cycle) when it could be translated as "haab' bearer" (referring to 360-day cycle). There are examples in Classic period hieroglyphic texts, albeit rare, of "anniversaries" being separated by a period of 365 days (e.g. Copan Altar U). But such an "anniversary" ("the annually recurring date of a past event," as we customarily understand the term) need not necessarily refer to the "annual" (365-day) recurrence of an event, but could refer to recurrence of the same haab' day in a 360-day cycle. Indisputably, 365 days were counted (observing the sun over time, it would be rather difficult to ignore those extra five days). The question, though, is whether the period that mattered to the ancient Maya was the 360-day period "to the end of which were added the five nameless days" (and it could also be said "uncounted days"), or whether it was really, verifiably, and indisputably a period of 365-days. As Long stated long ago, the so-called "xma kaba kin" were "days without name," "signifying their unlucky character and their being regarded ... as being outside of and as it were supplementary to the ordinary course of time" (Long 1925). If these questions are not of general interest, I would be happy to receive responses off-list from anyone else who is troubled by "year bearer." Hal Green From Institute at csumb.edu Mon Apr 2 22:43:41 2007 From: Institute at csumb.edu (Archaeology Institute) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 20:43:41 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Templo Mayor dedication date? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070401143122.0248a360@facstaffmail.williams.edu> <, > <,> Message-ID: Dear Greg, The dedication of the Templo Mayor (orchestrated by the huey tlatoani Ahuitzotl) "convened on the first day of the festival of Tlacaxipehualiztli [Flaying of People] in 1487...[and]...entailed the simultaneous deployment of some 20 individual groups of executioners, including the huey Tlatoani Ahuitzotl and the Lords Tlacaelel, Nezahualpilli, and Totoquihuatzin, each of whom participated in dispatching captives and letting blood over the course of a four-day harvest of human souls" (Mendoza 2007: 421). The festival of Tlacaxipehualiztli in turn constitutes the second month of the Aztec festival cycle, corresponding with the vernal equinox...or more generally, the Veintena period of 20 days extending from March 5th through 24th. Hope that helps. PS: The reference noted is as follows: Mendoza, Rub?n G. 2007. The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica. In The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by Amerindians, Edited by Richard Chacon and David Dye, pp. 396-439. New York: Springer Press. [Forthcoming, May 2007]. By the way, both the Templo Mayor and the huey Tzompantli of Mexico-Tenochtitlan (discussed in the paper so noted) were each oriented with respect to, and in alignment with, the equinoctial sun. Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology.csumb at gmail.edu Voice: 831-582-3760; Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu; http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ "Science progresses at the rate of one funeral at a time." -Albert Einstein "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -Albert Einstein "He who argues with a fool proves that there are two." -Anonymous Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. From sid.hollander at gmail.com Mon Apr 2 23:09:09 2007 From: sid.hollander at gmail.com (Sid Hollander) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 23:09:09 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] YEAR BEARER Message-ID: <5a64c8ee0704022109t350b06d5n389e2e294bac9f8b@mail.gmail.com> I have never been puzzled by the year bearer (YB) perhaps because I don't quite understand the problem but would love to discuss it with you off line if this thread on calendars gets old before its time. I always thought that the 5 'extra' days were part of the Haab. But assume that it was not. One needs to consider the popular lay descriptions/definitions of the Haab. 18 months of 20 days followed by: 1. a period of 5 days (very popular) 2. a 5-day month (for those who don't want to define Haab as 19 month (18 of 20 and one of 5 days) And I guess what you want is one or the other or are promoting one over the other. To either of these other terms like unlucky, unnamed do the same for me. One thing for sure was that there were regularly different BEARERS . Perhaps they should not be called Year Bearers or Haab Bearers but calling them "Month bearers" may your concerns or convince you that what you call them depends on how you define HAAB (via #1 or #2 above). For it is ALL 19 Months that are first borne by a Tzolkin day and then the next cycle of 19 months that are borne by the Tzolkin day 5 days further down the list. But if you want to call it Haab(360) Bearers you of by necessity have elected to define Habb in terms of #1 above. But if you want to call it Haab(365) Bearers you of by necessity have elected to define Habb in terms of #2 above. -- Sid Hollander Merida, Yucatan From chunchucmil at yahoo.com Tue Apr 3 06:35:55 2007 From: chunchucmil at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] T528 as "stone" In-Reply-To: <883245.88281.qm@web37011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512493.94227.qm@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Please forgive me, but I think I need to re-word my question: In which article (or published "note") was the current reading of T528 as "stone" first outlined? I'm not asking about the elements of the glyph itself (as we have already discussed on Aztlan), but the modern history of decipherment. Is there a core article that "proves" this glyph should be read as "tun/tuun"? I apologize if this has already been mentioned and I simply missed it. Again, this is for a fellow list member, so if you have a clear answer, please post to the list (or I can forward individual responses off-list if you prefer). -Dave --- David Hixson wrote: > I could look this up in my library, but I'm a bit > busy > with some other Aztlan/FAMSI issues at the moment... > > Would anyone out there mind outlining how the T528 > glyph came to be translated as "tun" (stone)? This > specific question arose during some off-list > discussions involving fellow listeros, so I'm sure > they'd appreciate any response (I can forward the > answers if folks would rather respond to me > directly). > > Many thanks, > > -Dave > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From eschele at austin.rr.com Tue Apr 3 08:40:10 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 08:40:10 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] T528 as "stone" References: <512493.94227.qm@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003101c775f5$99ad57a0$6501a8c0@gis> Hi Dave, You might look in Macri and Looper's book "New Catalog of Maya Hieroglyphs Vol 1" to see the history of its decipherment. Start with the reference to "ku" (this sign is also a syllable) on page 216 - 217, but then you can look it up under Ha'ab, Tun or Tuun in the back index on 313. Their indexing takes a while to get use to, but I have found it a great source of information. Elaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hixson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] T528 as "stone" > Please forgive me, but I think I need to re-word my > question: > > In which article (or published "note") was the current > reading of T528 as "stone" first outlined? I'm not > asking about the elements of the glyph itself (as we > have already discussed on Aztlan), but the modern > history of decipherment. Is there a core article that > "proves" this glyph should be read as "tun/tuun"? I > apologize if this has already been mentioned and I > simply missed it. > > Again, this is for a fellow list member, so if you > have a clear answer, please post to the list (or I can > forward individual responses off-list if you prefer). > > -Dave > > --- David Hixson wrote: > > > I could look this up in my library, but I'm a bit > > busy > > with some other Aztlan/FAMSI issues at the moment... > > > > Would anyone out there mind outlining how the T528 > > glyph came to be translated as "tun" (stone)? This > > specific question arose during some off-list > > discussions involving fellow listeros, so I'm sure > > they'd appreciate any response (I can forward the > > answers if folks would rather respond to me > > directly). > > > > Many thanks, > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html > > _______________________________________________ > > Aztlan mailing list > > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ > Don't pick lemons. > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From eschele at austin.rr.com Tue Apr 3 13:21:47 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:21:47 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] The Macri and Looper Catalog Message-ID: <005101c7761c$f1049640$6501a8c0@gis> Listeros, In my last message I told you that the Macri and Looper Catalog contains "the history of decipherment" of particular glyphs. That part of the book is one of the many things that I like about it because it documents all the different interpretations that epigraphers have made about individual signs. It is a testimony to the agonizing struggle that of trying to understand what these ancient people were writing -- a struggle that still goes on even as I write this (even though a majority of it has now been revealed). Elaine From michaelruggeri at mac.com Tue Apr 3 13:47:35 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:47:35 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] CONE SHAPED SKULL AT EL TIGRAL Message-ID: Listeros, As a follow up to the Nazca area site at El Trigal, here is a photo of one of the cranial deformed skull found at the site. The style is like the Maya style in Mesoamerica. http://www.livescience.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/ img_display.php?pic=070328_cabeza_larga_02.jpg&cap=Evidence+of+cranial +deformation+found+at+El+Trigal.+Credit%3A+Proyecto+La+Puntilla-UAB Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/ index.html Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Mound Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ index.html From troycabo at yahoo.com Tue Apr 3 17:16:11 2007 From: troycabo at yahoo.com (mario malo) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Meaning of winner take all. Message-ID: <318449.73138.qm@web53204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Amigos, I found an interesting site regarding Mesoamerican Sports, Music, Culture and History, one that all can enjoy! www.ballgame.org Mario Malo --------------------------------- Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. From chunchucmil at yahoo.com Wed Apr 4 07:22:59 2007 From: chunchucmil at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] T528 as "stone" (David Stuart's Response) In-Reply-To: <512493.94227.qm@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <320174.34873.qm@web35514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The following is a response to my query by David Stuart (forwarded with permission): ----------------- There has been a good deal of confusion about "year" glyphs in general, with T528 often and incorrectly analyzed as either HAAB' or TUUN'. Thompson's insightful identification of the "drought" glyph in the Dresden Codex is a good starting point -- there, both signs are used in spelling the expression k'intunyabil (k'in-tun-y-(h)ab-il). The question has been, though, which sign is TUUN and which is HAAB'? (By the way, the long vowels I use to transcribe the signs are not reflected in the standard colonial Yucatec orthography used by Thompson and others, and represent a more "archaic" Classic-era Ch'olan phonology). Thompson had T528 as HAAB and T548 as TUUN, but we now know he had it backwards. John Justeson and John Fox corrected Thompson's analysis in 1980, and assigned the correct values in the "drought" glyph. However, they also proposed that both signs could have either values, depending on context. This is not the case, and Maya writing does not accommodate this sort of polyvalency. I feel very strongly now, as do most epigrpahers, that T528 is always read TUUN and T548 is always HAAB' - phonetically they never switch roles. What may confuse people is that T548 could stand for haab' in refering to a "year" of either 360 or 365 days. Tuun means "stone" and only secondarily "year," since ritual stones (monuments) were used symbolically to as material representations of the time periods. But because of the more metaphoric "year" meaning, tuun "stone" could also conceivably stand for a 360 or 365-day period. But the latter 365 usage is very, very rare. The best recent source for the TUUN reading is my 1996 article "Kings of Stone," published in RES: Anthropology and Aesthetics. Also very relevant is John Justeson and Peter Mathews older article "The Seating of the Tun," published in American Antiquity in the early 1980s. Best, David ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From carolyn.tate at ttu.edu Wed Apr 4 16:19:53 2007 From: carolyn.tate at ttu.edu (Tate, Carolyn) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:19:53 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Axolotl Message-ID: A few years ago, there was a discussion of the axolotl, the salamander that inhabited the lake system in the Valley of Mexico. Could the person who initiated that discussion let me know what its questions and their results were? Thanks, Carolyn Tate From bwrogers at usgs.gov Wed Apr 4 17:47:13 2007 From: bwrogers at usgs.gov (Bruce Rogers) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:47:13 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Axolotl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >A few years ago, there was a discussion of the axolotl, the salamander that >inhabited the lake system in the Valley of Mexico. Could the person who >initiated that discussion let me know what its questions and their results >were? >Thanks, >Carolyn Tate ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:28:57 -0500 From: "John F. Schwaller" Subject: curious To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU At 09:17 AM 12/1/1999 -0500, you wrote: >i'm new to the list and am wondering if anyone has ever read DUNE by >Frank Herbert. it may seem odd, but, in the book, he uses the word >axolotl to refer to a tank used for cloning. i can gather from some of >the postings that xolotl means doll, but i don't know what the a- adds >to the word. i haven't studied much of the language yet so i haven't >committed much grammar to memory. thank you to anyone who responds. axolotl is a water puppy, a non-metamorphosed salamander. It comes from Nahuatl and means a water xolotl. There was a relatively large group of animals in Nahuatl taxonomy which b elonged to the xolotl class including the turkey (big xolotl) and the owl (rock xolotl) John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:29:06 -0500 From: Carlos M Rincon Subject: curious To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU Hi Lucas: An axolotl (Amphystoma tigrina) is an amphibian regarded by Mexicans as one of their most unique animals. It's metamorphosis is arrested so that it never leaves its watery environment.... keeps its tail, branchia etc. The allusion to tank... not a wheeled weapon, but rather a holding area or receptacle could be a tenuous reference to the axolotl's need for continuous immersion. It is an edible salamander. It is believed to be a fish that menstruates like women (Karttunen, F. 1983:15, An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, Univ. of Texas Press, Austin). The ethymological derivation is especially tricky: the "a" is a prefix derived from the Nahuatl word "atl" meaning water. "Xolotl" could be derived from the verb "xolahua" or "xoloa" meaning to slip, or to have a slippery quality (Karttunen 1983:330). Interestingly, "xolotl" is frequently used to refer to twinned objects, hence the closest connotation to cloning that I could find. Refer to Miller, M. and K. Taube 1993:190, in The Gods and Symbols of Ancient Mexico and the Maya, Thames and Hudson Ltd., London. Hope this helps. Good luck. Carlos A. Rincon Mautner carmecol at dc.seflin.org ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:29:11 -0500 From: a8803917 Subject: curious To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU The axolotl is a kind of newt living in central Mexico (from "atl"=water and "xolotl"=nude, skinless) Lucas Molina Schrieb +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:20:24 -0500 From: Tom Frederiksen Subject: Curious, axolotl biology To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU Dr. Buerglin writes: > Could the aztecs have known about the metamorphosis properties of axolotls?? Another aspect of Axolotl is the ability to spontaneously change (morph) under stress. {reference: http://www.iversonsoftware.com/business/reptile/axolotl.html } A very deity-like ability. Since this thread seems to be growing legs, I have placed a picture of the white mutant variety on line for a few days should anyone be interested is seeing the "feather" like gills. Axolotl picture - http://northcoast.com/~spdtom/axolotl.gif (NOTE: LINK NO LONGER WORKS) The Aztec were quite interested in nature. It is hard to believe they were unaware of this creature and it's rather odd properties. Considering the feather like gills, and a monster like appearance, a case for association with Quet and Xol could be made. Best, Tom Frederiksen +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:01:37 -0500 From: Linda Foss Organization: Marrder Omnimedia Subject: Curious, axolotl biology To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU Thomas Burglin wrote: > There are actually several different types of newts that have > this "non-maturing" feature, some often in the cold mountain > areas in lakes (some in the Rockies, I think). This is very common. Tiger Salamander can also stay in their larval state. They are called mud puppies and are sold around here in bait shops. Although I don't see how anyone can stick a fish hook through their funny heads. Anyway, they stay in their larval stage if their aquatic environment is fine. If their pond should dry up or food supply become low, they can complete their metamorphosis, become adult salamanders and move onto the land. Adaptation! Amphibians are definitely the weirdest and the most fascinating group of quadrapeds. Linda Foss +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:50:35 -0500 From: Samuel Edgerton Jr Subject: Curious, axolotl biology To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU I should have added in my last comment on this subject that the phylum amphibiae not only contains salamanders and frogs but also bewitched princes (counterparts to the lawyers among reptiles). Sam Edgerton +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:14:45 -0500 From: Linda Foss Organization: Marrder Omnimedia Subject: Axolotl To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU They are Tiger Salamander larva and are used for bait for fishing. They live here in east Texas as well, although I have never seen one. Except in a tank in a classroom at the Houston Museum of Natural Science where they are a big hit with kids. They have very funny faces. They are often called mud puppies or water dogs. Linda Foss ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From magnuspharao at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 15:19:21 2007 From: magnuspharao at gmail.com (magnus hansen) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 22:19:21 +0200 Subject: [Aztlan] Aztlan Digest, Vol 17, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry but I have to correct mr. schwallers comment about the "xolotl class" of animals. An owl is *tekolotl* not *Texolotl*. Kolotl means scorpion - or some have argued it also means generically pointy, stingy, dangerous animals. A *texolotl* however is the beater of a molcajete. In Hueyapan nawatl *xolotl* means "glutton" and the etymology given for turkey (probably a folk etymology) is "big glutton" because turkeys take a lot of feed to raise. Magnus From sylvia at famsi.org Thu Apr 5 15:28:42 2007 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 16:28:42 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Grantee Reports/Informes--Vista Alegre, Cholula, Palo Errado, Palenque Message-ID: <006801c777c1$0157e740$2501a8c0@sylvia> Mesoamericanists, New grantee reports this week at FAMSI website include: La Costa Escondida: An Archaeological Investigation of the Ancient Maya Port of Vista Alegre, Quintana Roo, Mexico (2005) by Dominique Rissolo. http://www.famsi.org/reports/03043/index.html The Effects of Urbanism on the Health and Demography of the Postclassic Population of Cholula, Puebla (2004) by Meggan M. Bullock. http://www.famsi.org/reports/03066/index.html Informes en Espa?ol: Proyecto de Mapeo de los Campos Inundables de Palo Errado, Veracruz, Mexico (2005) por Charles Leonard Frederick Knight. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05066es/index.html Proyecto Hidro-Arqueologico de Palenque (2005) por Kirk D. French. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05076es/index.html Saludos, Sylvia Perrine, Archivist Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/index.html From DHARMA at compuserve.com Thu Apr 5 21:12:31 2007 From: DHARMA at compuserve.com (Dody Fugate) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 22:12:31 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Xolotl Message-ID: <200704052212_MC3-1-DFF4-BE0@compuserve.com> Interestingly enough, 'Xolotl' is also the name of Quetzalcoatls' brother/avatar the dead dog who escorts the souls of the dead to the neither world. This name ' Xolotl' 'glutton' is another example of the strange liminal position dogs have in the world. They are considered important enough to escort the dead safely to the next life but they are also the eaters of the dead. Dody Fugate' Santa Fe From robertleonardhall at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 5 22:02:43 2007 From: robertleonardhall at sbcglobal.net (Robert Hall) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 20:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Axolotl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <493818.70097.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Colegas, I have learned much from the discussions of xolotl as an element of words in Nahuatl, axolotl and hueyxolotl in particular, but to the extent that the god Xolotl was identified with Evening Star as an aspect of Venus, whose destiny was death each 584 days, I believe that Xolotl's warrior status may be being slighted. Perhaps someone can correct me if I have strayed too far from reason. The image of Xolotl in the Codex Borgia shows him with a hand painted over his mouth area. This is a manner of face painting that in the North American Plains signified a war honor, either for reason of an action against an enemy or for reason of escaping an action by an enemy. This is recorded historically for the Sisseton Dakota, Winnebago, and Omaha and is represented on a repousse copper plate of the Mississippian period, found in Missouri, depicting a falcon warrior or impersonator. Such plates in the Southeastern United States are late prehistoric in age and probably date to between A.D. 1100 and 1400. The name guajolote ( wrote: Sorry but I have to correct mr. schwallers comment about the "xolotl class" of animals. An owl is *tekolotl* not *Texolotl*. Kolotl means scorpion - or some have argued it also means generically pointy, stingy, dangerous animals. A *texolotl* however is the beater of a molcajete. In Hueyapan nawatl *xolotl* means "glutton" and the etymology given for turkey (probably a folk etymology) is "big glutton" because turkeys take a lot of feed to raise. Magnus _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From romogut56 at prodigy.net.mx Fri Apr 6 23:48:57 2007 From: romogut56 at prodigy.net.mx (Roberto RG) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 23:48:57 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] xolotl axolotl Message-ID: <461722B9.70004@PRODIGY.NET.MX> Hola Acerca de las diversas opiniones sobre Xolotl y Axolotll . Se?ala Carlos Rincon que "xolotl" is frequently used to refer to twinned objects." Efectivamente este tipo de respuesta sobre Xolotl es t?pica, Xoltol es el gemelo de Quetzatcoatl. Interpretaci?n establecida por Seler y osificada en la antropolog?a mesoamericana por el peso acad?mico y pol?tico que llego a tener Alfonso Caso, sabio y al mismo tiempo director del INAH,jefe de los antropologos cuando no hab?a contrapesos sindicales y despues Rector de la UNAM y jefe de los otros antropologos donde se presentaba la misma situaci?n laboral. Creo que es una concepci?n que debe ser sometida a una revisi?n cr?tica. ?Que tienen de gemelos, esto es, de exactamente iguales, el dios Xolotlt con cabeza de perro y pies deformes (cfr c?dice borgia) con un dios con mascara de pato (Ehecatl) (c?diceBorgia) ? O por quees gemelo ese dios con cara de perro del dios con cabeza humana Quetzatcoatl, cfr imagen en manuscrito del palacio de Sahag?n o Atavio de los dioses? Esos gemelos me parecen como los que cre? el guionista del film Twins, con Devito y Arnold como actores principales. Se?ala Magnus An owl is *tekolotl* not *Texolotl*. Kolotl means scorpion - or some have argued it also means generically pointy, stingy, dangerous El t?rmino Tecolote , de tecolotl existe y refiere al buho. Persiste el dicho basado en una creencia prehisp?nica : Cuando el tecolote, el buho, canta el indio muere, y refiere a un mal ag?ero prehisp?nico ver abusiones en Sahagun HIstoria... Por esa liga del tecolote con lo funesto , con la muerte, y el simbolismo que pose?a el buho o tecolote en la hechiceria europea se uso el t?rmino Tecolotl para acompa?ar el vocablo que los cronistas usaron en nahuatl para designar e implantar en mesoamerica el concepto del diablo cristiano: Tlacatecolotl Texolotl se conoce actualmente como Tejolote y efectivamente es lo que se usa para machacar el molcajete. Es usado para hacer las salsas o el guacamole, este ?ltimo hecho de aguacates y ahuacatl son testiculos en nahuatl. Un dato mas para poner en duda la visi?n puritana de los mesoamericanos del centro y norte de m?xico que nos dieron los cronistas El t?rmino Kolotl no existe con K es Colotl con C. De ah? por ejemplo la poblaci?n de Colotlan,hist?rico pueblo del norte de Jalisco protag?nico para el fin de la Guerra Chichimeca , vease Powell Guerra Chichimeca. Si busca en un mapa como llegar a Kolotlan , nunca lograra hacerlo porque no existe dicho lugar . Dice Dody Fugate 'Xolotl' is also the name of Quetzalcoatls' brother/avatar Si Xolotl es el nombre de Quetzatcoatl entonces son lo mismo Xolotl que Quetzatcoatl? Xololt = Quetzatcoatl ? Porque son lo mismo, en que son lo mismo? Entre los mitos de los colhuas mexicas, los erroneamente, llamados aztecas, Xolotl es un dios cobarde que huye deshonrosamente de la muerte y del sacrificio, lo mas deshonroso que pod?a haber y por eso se convierte en cosas dobles y finalmente se transforma en un ajolote, un axolotl, que ya no es un objeto doble, forma en la que es descubierto y muerto. Frente al despreciable Xolotl, como antagonista esta el dios Quetzatcotl que fue un heroe que bajo al inframundo y obtuvo los huesos para hacer a los humanos y luego se sangro su pene sobre los huesos molidos para darles vida . Es lo mismo un cobarde que un h?roe? O porque algui?n, no importa qui?n, dijo que Quetzatcoatl y Xolotl son hermanos debemos aceptarlo? Lo mismo, hermano y avatar no son terminos con contenidos equiparables. El hermano de algui?n no es lo mismo que esa persona y una transformaci?n o un avatar no es lo mismo que un hermano. Es cierto entre Xolotl y Quetzatcoatl hubo en alg?n momento una situaci?n de transformaci?n, entre ellos hay un avatar Lo que habria que investigar es quien fue el avatar de quien?. Xolotl creo yo, fue un dios mas antiguo que Quetzatcoatl y este fue un dios mas moderno cuyos adoradores , los colhuas mexicas, le otorgaron las atribuciones divinas de aquel, apoyados en la fuerza militar que llego a tener el imperio colhua mexica, erroneamente llamado azteca. Esta versi?n azteca" de la mitologia mesoamericana fue la que por los cronistas llego a nosostros de forma mayoritaria por el peso pol?tico militar que tuvo este estado mesomericano, la gran Tenochtitlan, Sin embargo hay mitos recogidos por Fray Ger?nimo de Mendieta que otorgan a Xolotl todos los atributos, haza?as y ?reas de intervenci?n divina que luego encontramos en Quetzatcoatl. Est? tambi?n el sugerente hecho de que el primer gran poder chichimeca que existio en el valle de Mexico fue el reyno de Xolotl. De este reyno descienden los Tepanecas los mismos que durante siglos esclavizaron a los "aztecas" o (colhuas mexicas) Iba este rey Xolotl, portando su nombre, honrar a un dios sin?nimo de cobard?a como los mitos colhua mexicas (aztecas) nos presentan a Xolotl? Creo que esa transformaci?n del papel divino de Xolotl, en cobarde, paje y perruno sirviente de Quetzatcoatl forma parte de la re escritura de la historia y de la religi?n que Iztcoatl y Tlacaelel hicieron cuando quemaron los libros, habiendo antes derotado a los tepanecas. La intervenci?n de Robert Hall es muy interesante Efectivamente es necesario romper el etnocentrismo y el geo centrismo para buscar entender mejor la religi?n , mitologia y cosmologia del centro y centro norte de mesoamerica Se?ala The image of Xolotl in the Codex Borgia shows him with a hand painted over his mouth area. This is a manner of face painting that in the North American Plains signified a war honor Pero me queda la duda se refiere al animal llamado gloton o al animal llamado Tejon? El gloton es solo de lugares de Tundra y el tejon existe en las praderas. En el tejon el pelo de su cabeza forma una "mascara" parecida al maquillaje facial de Xolotl. Los pies de Xolotl en la imagen del Borgia recuerdan las garras del tejon, el cual se nombra tecozantli Roberto From birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 9 11:36:20 2007 From: birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com (jeremy smith) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine Message-ID: <746200.49053.qm@web60116.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Everybody, It seems like the Maya did have an alcoholic drink made from maize. Most of you professional Mayanist probably already knew this. I knew the Maya consumed some form of intoxicating beverage from various ceramic vessels and figurines portraying intoxicated persons. John Montgomery (2001;185) writes in "Tikal-An Illustrated History of the Ancient Maya Capital," about a vessel taken from Burial 196: "Among the polychrome cylinders present, one ranks among the most beautiful ever painted in the Maya lowlands. Smaller than typical vases, and executed in "codex style," the cream field and heiroglyphic writing resemble a page from a Maya book. The dual enthroned lords and their attendants are outlined in black, while costume details, the ruler's bodies, and the more important heiroglyphs are tinted in shades of red. Both attendants represent hummingbirds. and their long beaks pierce the heiroglyph for "flower." Another sign written on the vase between them, reads sa, identifying the vessels contents as alcoholic maize gruel." --------------------------------- Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. From mayavase at verizon.net Mon Apr 9 15:31:09 2007 From: mayavase at verizon.net (Justin Kerr) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 16:31:09 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine In-Reply-To: <746200.49053.qm@web60116.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003e01c77ae6$02caa450$6701a8c0@justnew> The vase the John Montgomery refers to is K8008 and unless I am reading the text incorrectly the rim text, says cacao. We can study K1092 were the text refers to Ah Ki (the drunkard)[in Yukatec] and the leaves in the bowl have been identified as maguey. There is strong evidence that a prime substance to ferment was honey, see K1453. But K504 has a text that refers to "the seeds of the genitals" which is a euphuism referring to corn gruel. Justin -----Original Message----- From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of jeremy smith Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 12:36 PM To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine Hi Everybody, It seems like the Maya did have an alcoholic drink made from maize. Most of you professional Mayanist probably already knew this. I knew the Maya consumed some form of intoxicating beverage from various ceramic vessels and figurines portraying intoxicated persons. John Montgomery (2001;185) writes in "Tikal-An Illustrated History of the Ancient Maya Capital," about a vessel taken from Burial 196: "Among the polychrome cylinders present, one ranks among the most beautiful ever painted in the Maya lowlands. Smaller than typical vases, and executed in "codex style," the cream field and heiroglyphic writing resemble a page from a Maya book. The dual enthroned lords and their attendants are outlined in black, while costume details, the ruler's bodies, and the more important heiroglyphs are tinted in shades of red. Both attendants represent hummingbirds. and their long beaks pierce the heiroglyph for "flower." Another sign written on the vase between them, reads sa, identifying the vessels contents as alcoholic maize gruel." --------------------------------- Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Mon Apr 9 16:53:38 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nick Hopkins) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 17:53:38 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya alcoholic maize wine Message-ID: In response to birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com RE the maize drink, the modern Maya of the Chiapas highlands (e.g., Tzotzils, Tzeltals) make a fermented maize drink called chicha (a Spanish word which elsewhere refers to drinks made from other stuff), which I would imagine is the same as the preconquest fermented beverage. Tzotzil yakil vo', Tzeltal yakal ja', etc., are based on a root yak meaning intoxicating/ intoxicated, cf. Chol y?k, drunk. The alcoholic content is about that of beer, and this beverage is/was sold and consumed in village markets on market days and on the occasion of public festivities. The beverage referred to by John Montgomery, sa' (Spanish pozol), is the beverage taken to the fields by agricultural workers, and is not usually fermented (in my experience), although it is sometimes consumed in a sour stage that is on its way to fermentation (pozol agrio), just like 'ul (atole) may be slightly fermented. A chart of the stages of production of these two beverages (and several dozen other maize preparations) can be constructed from the data in Berlin, Breedlove and Raven's Principles of Tzeltal Plant Taxonomy. Nick Hopkins From hwavila at tutopia.com Mon Apr 9 16:54:21 2007 From: hwavila at tutopia.com (Henry Avila) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:54:21 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine References: <003e01c77ae6$02caa450$6701a8c0@justnew> Message-ID: <002501c77af1$a9f71dc0$7319a8c0@lan> Alcoholic Fruits Wine Well, I don?t know if this drink is from maya origin, but certainly it is very antique here in high lands of Guatemala. And it is prepared almost only for the maya comunity. Consist in a mix of fruits pieces in a boiling soup, many kinds of fruits, and then it gets bury for about three weeks. After that lapse, it is ready for drink. This drink is known as "koosha" and it is forbbiden by the goverment. It is very alcoholic, I proved it and I think it is like a shot of tequila. One person can be easily get drunk with a few drinks. I was wondering if this was an antique drink just like the "maize wine". Regards. ______________________________ Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar m?s r?pido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos. From JSJusteson at aol.com Mon Apr 9 20:27:23 2007 From: JSJusteson at aol.com (JSJusteson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 21:27:23 EDT Subject: [Aztlan] Ep: meeting announcement: NE Mesoam. Epig. Group (NutMEG): Fri-Sat Apr 20 & 21 Message-ID: Carolyn Tate will be speaking on La Venta's processional creation narrative. Her presentation will begin at 4:00pm on Friday, April 20, in Room 354 of the Humanities building at SUNY Albany -- our usual Albany venue. The session will be followed by dinner at a local restaurant. The next day, Juan Ignacio Cazes will be speaking on ancient Mayan astronomy, starting at 1:00pm. The venue will be Humanities Room 290. NutMEG presentations normally run 2.5 - 3.5 hours, with a short break in the middle. If you have questions, please contact me at _justeson at gmail.com_ (mailto:justeson at gmail.com) . John Justeson ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From eschele at austin.rr.com Mon Apr 9 23:21:34 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:21:34 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Maize Farming In Mexico - Earliest Evidence Message-ID: <003e01c77b27$b9c169f0$6401a8c0@gis> >From Science Daily: Source: Florida State University Date: April 9, 2007 Anthropologist Finds Earliest Evidence Of Maize Farming In Mexico Science Daily - A Florida State University anthropologist has new evidence that ancient farmers in Mexico were cultivating an early form of maize, the forerunner of modern corn, about 7,300 years ago - 1,200 years earlier than scholars previously thought. Professor Mary Pohl conducted an analysis of sediments in the Gulf Coast of Tabasco, Mexico, and concluded that people were planting crops in the "New World" of the Americas around 5,300 B.C. The analysis extends Pohl's previous work in this area and validates principles of microfossil data collection. The results of Pohl's study, which she conducted along with Dolores R. Piperno of the National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C. and the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in the Republic of Panama, Kevin O. Pope of Geo Arc Research and John G. Jones of Washington State University, will be published in the April 9-13 edition of the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. For the rest of the story: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070409181647.htm From deamayaspin at yahoo.com Mon Apr 9 20:42:37 2007 From: deamayaspin at yahoo.com (D. M. Urquidi) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 18:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine In-Reply-To: <002501c77af1$a9f71dc0$7319a8c0@lan> Message-ID: <291804.72390.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Henry Avila When water is bad or dangerous to drink, things like alcoholic fruit beverages, grapes, pineapple, maiz,maguey, etc. are the solution. The Guatemala drink is similar to the Cali, Colombia pineapple offering at meals; Not as alcoholic, only three or four days (or a week) in a pot. in the hot weather, this makes a slightly tart cerveza. It seems that the whole of the Americas has some variant of this drink. It keeps away diarrhea and other stomach viruses and makes for healthy people IF not used in excess. (Or not used with excess fermentation time.) Dea D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765 http://www.mayalords.org http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From aztlandave at yahoo.com Tue Apr 10 08:53:28 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 06:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] In Search of Nature - A new addition to the FAMSI Journal by John Hoopes In-Reply-To: <003e01c77b27$b9c169f0$6401a8c0@gis> Message-ID: <888695.5493.qm@web37002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Estimados Listeros, We at the FAMSI Journal of the Ancient Americas are pleased to announce the newest addition to our online journal: In Search of Nature: Imagining the Precolumbian Landscapes of Ancient Central America. By Dr. John W. Hoopes "Human impact on the ecology of the New World did not begin with the arrival of European settlers. Nor is the story of twelve millennia of human occupation one of "low impact" with few lasting effects. In fact, it is likely that alteration of the landscape in the indigenous past was at least as significant as it has been in the European present." This paper delves into the impact of human alteration of the Central American landscape in the late Holocene, with detailed evidence from the archaeology and ecology of Costa Rica. This was formerly published on the "Aztlan E-Journal" but has now been transferred to the FAMSI server in order to insure that this valuable resource remains in circulation on the web. Dr. Hoopes is a widely renowned archaeologist and author, a pioneer of putting archaeology "on the web" and one of the original founding members of the Aztlan community. Please visit the FAMSI Journal website for the complete article in PDF format (URL below), and be sure to click on "Contributed Papers" to view a list of all available articles. http://research.famsi.org/aztlan/aztlan_journal.php Saludos, Dave, Fritz and Mike Aztlan Moderators & FAMSI Journal Editors ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Tue Apr 10 14:35:55 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nicholas Hopkins) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:35:55 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Alcoholic Drinks Message-ID: That fermented pineapple juice (and pineapples are native to the New World) is called tepache in Mexico City and environs, and is a popular (in both senses) drink. I lived one summer in a room above a small restaurant that served only tepache and pozole (the Central Mexican kind, not the Maya). I assume from the name that this is a precolumbian beverage. Nick Hopkins From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Tue Apr 10 14:44:57 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nicholas Hopkins) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:44:57 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Maize Farming In Mexico - Earliest Evidence In-Reply-To: <003e01c77b27$b9c169f0$6401a8c0@gis> References: <003e01c77b27$b9c169f0$6401a8c0@gis> Message-ID: A lengthy story on these discoveries is also featured on the FSU website front page, www.fsu.edu (with a nice photo of Mary!). Nick Hopkins On Apr 10, 2007, at 12:21 AM, Elaine Day Schele wrote: >> From Science Daily: > Source: Florida State University > Date: April 9, 2007 > Anthropologist Finds Earliest Evidence Of Maize Farming In Mexico > Science Daily - A Florida State University anthropologist has new > evidence that ancient farmers in Mexico were cultivating an early > form of maize, the forerunner of modern corn, about 7,300 years ago > - 1,200 years earlier than scholars previously thought. > > Professor Mary Pohl conducted an analysis of sediments in the Gulf > Coast of Tabasco, Mexico, and concluded that people were planting > crops in the "New World" of the Americas around 5,300 B.C. The > analysis extends Pohl's previous work in this area and validates > principles of microfossil data collection. > > The results of Pohl's study, which she conducted along with Dolores > R. Piperno of the National Museum of Natural History in Washington, > D.C. and the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in the > Republic of Panama, Kevin O. Pope of Geo Arc Research and John G. > Jones of Washington State University, will be published in the > April 9-13 edition of the journal Proceedings of the National > Academy of Sciences. > > For the rest of the story: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/ > 2007/04/070409181647.htm > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From nemotode at hotmail.com Tue Apr 10 14:07:17 2007 From: nemotode at hotmail.com (David Clark) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:07:17 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Chicha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Non-Maya people in present day Honduras & El Salvador make an alcoholic drink they call "chicha" from maize, pineapple, & spices. Had some a few months ago. Very tasty. >From: aztlan-request at lists.famsi.org >Reply-To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >Subject: Aztlan Digest, Vol 17, Issue 8 >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:00:02 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from www.famsi.org ([72.3.223.2]) by >bay0-mc2-f17.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue, >10 Apr 2007 10:02:14 -0700 >Received: from www.famsi.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])by www.famsi.org >(8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l3AH09Pg028579;Tue, 10 Apr 2007 >12:00:12 -0500 >X-Message-Info: >txF49lGdW419SZcXJpZgsnh36cdD1v03cdbEiPFHVAF+vQsw2wN3t5V5923d0+aG >X-BeenThere: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 >Precedence: list >List-Id: A PreColumbian Discussion List >List-Unsubscribe: >, >List-Archive: >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Subscribe: >, >Errors-To: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org >Return-Path: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Apr 2007 17:02:15.0210 (UTC) >FILETIME=[FD3790A0:01C77B91] > >Send Aztlan mailing list submissions to > aztlan at lists.famsi.org > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > aztlan-request at lists.famsi.org > >You can reach the person managing the list at > aztlan-owner at lists.famsi.org > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of Aztlan digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine (jeremy smith) > 2. Re: Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine (Justin Kerr) > 3. Maya alcoholic maize wine (Nick Hopkins) > 4. Re: Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine (Henry Avila) > 5. Ep: meeting announcement: NE Mesoam. Epig. Group (NutMEG): > Fri-Sat Apr 20 & 21 (JSJusteson at aol.com) > 6. Maize Farming In Mexico - Earliest Evidence (Elaine Day Schele) > 7. Re: Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine (D. M. Urquidi) > 8. In Search of Nature - A new addition to the FAMSI Journal by > John Hoopes (David Hixson) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) >From: jeremy smith >Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >Message-ID: <746200.49053.qm at web60116.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >Hi Everybody, > > It seems like the Maya did have an alcoholic drink made from maize. Most >of you > professional Mayanist probably already knew this. I knew the Maya >consumed some form of > intoxicating beverage from various ceramic vessels and figurines >portraying intoxicated > persons. John Montgomery (2001;185) writes in "Tikal-An Illustrated >History of the Ancient > Maya Capital," about a vessel taken from Burial 196: > > "Among the polychrome cylinders present, one ranks among the most >beautiful ever > painted in the Maya lowlands. Smaller than typical vases, and executed >in "codex style," > the cream field and heiroglyphic writing resemble a page from a Maya >book. The dual > enthroned lords and their attendants are outlined in black, while >costume details, the > ruler's bodies, and the more important heiroglyphs are tinted in shades >of red. Both > attendants represent hummingbirds. and their long beaks pierce the >heiroglyph for > "flower." Another sign written on the vase between them, reads sa, >identifying the vessels > contents as alcoholic maize gruel." > > >--------------------------------- >Need Mail bonding? >Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 16:31:09 -0400 >From: "Justin Kerr" >Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine >To: "'jeremy smith'" , >Message-ID: <003e01c77ae6$02caa450$6701a8c0 at justnew> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >The vase the John Montgomery refers to is K8008 and unless I am reading the >text incorrectly the rim text, says cacao. >We can study K1092 were the text refers to Ah Ki (the drunkard)[in Yukatec] >and the leaves in the bowl have been identified as maguey. >There is strong evidence that a prime substance to ferment was honey, see >K1453. >But K504 has a text that refers to "the seeds of the genitals" which is a >euphuism referring to corn gruel. >Justin > >-----Original Message----- >From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org >[mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] >On Behalf Of jeremy smith >Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 12:36 PM >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Maize Wine > >Hi Everybody, > > It seems like the Maya did have an alcoholic drink made from maize. Most >of you > professional Mayanist probably already knew this. I knew the Maya >consumed >some form of > intoxicating beverage from various ceramic vessels and figurines >portraying intoxicated > persons. John Montgomery (2001;185) writes in "Tikal-An Illustrated >History of the Ancient > Maya Capital," about a vessel taken from Burial 196: > > "Among the polychrome cylinders present, one ranks among the most >beautiful ever > painted in the Maya lowlands. Smaller than typical vases, and executed >in >"codex style," > the cream field and heiroglyphic writing resemble a page from a Maya >book. >The dual > enthroned lords and their attendants are outlined in black, while >costume >details, the > ruler's bodies, and the more important heiroglyphs are tinted in shades >of >red. Both > attendants represent hummingbirds. and their long beaks pierce the >heiroglyph for > "flower." Another sign written on the vase between them, reads sa, >identifying the vessels > contents as alcoholic maize gruel." > > >--------------------------------- >Need Mail bonding? >Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. >_______________________________________________ >Aztlan mailing list >Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 17:53:38 -0400 >From: Nick Hopkins >Subject: [Aztlan] Maya alcoholic maize wine >To: Aztlan >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed > >In response to birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com RE the maize drink, the modern >Maya of the Chiapas highlands (e.g., Tzotzils, Tzeltals) make a >fermented maize drink called chicha (a Spanish word which elsewhere >refers to drinks made from other stuff), which I would imagine is the >same as the preconquest fermented beverage. Tzotzil yakil vo', >Tzeltal yakal ja', etc., are based on a root yak meaning intoxicating/ >intoxicated, cf. Chol y?k, drunk. The alcoholic content is about >that of beer, and this beverage is/was sold and consumed in village >markets on market days and on the occasion of public festivities. >The beverage referred to by John Montgomery, sa' (Spanish pozol), is >the beverage taken to the fields by agricultural workers, and is not >usually fermented (in my experience), although it is sometimes >consumed in a sour stage that is on its way to fermentation (pozol >agrio), just like 'ul (atole) may be slightly fermented. A chart of >the stages of production of these two beverages (and several dozen >other maize preparations) can be constructed from the data in Berlin, >Breedlove and Raven's Principles of Tzeltal Plant Taxonomy. > >Nick Hopkins > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:54:21 -0500 >From: "Henry Avila" >Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine >To: >Message-ID: <002501c77af1$a9f71dc0$7319a8c0 at lan> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >Alcoholic Fruits Wine > >Well, I don?t know if this drink is from maya origin, but certainly it is >very antique here in high lands of Guatemala. And it is prepared almost >only for the maya comunity. > >Consist in a mix of fruits pieces in a boiling soup, many kinds of fruits, >and then it gets bury for about three weeks. After that lapse, it is ready >for drink. > >This drink is known as "koosha" and it is forbbiden by the goverment. It >is >very alcoholic, I proved it and I think it is like a shot of tequila. One >person can be easily get drunk with a few drinks. I was wondering if this >was an antique drink just like the "maize wine". > >Regards. > >______________________________ >Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar m?s r?pido en Internet. >Tutopia es Internet para todos. > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 21:27:23 EDT >From: JSJusteson at aol.com >Subject: [Aztlan] Ep: meeting announcement: NE Mesoam. Epig. Group > (NutMEG): Fri-Sat Apr 20 & 21 >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Carolyn Tate will be speaking on La Venta's processional creation >narrative. > Her presentation will begin at 4:00pm on Friday, April 20, in Room 354 >of >the Humanities building at SUNY Albany -- our usual Albany venue. The >session >will be followed by dinner at a local restaurant. > >The next day, Juan Ignacio Cazes will be speaking on ancient Mayan >astronomy, > starting at 1:00pm. The venue will be Humanities Room 290. > >NutMEG presentations normally run 2.5 - 3.5 hours, with a short break in >the > middle. If you have questions, please contact me at _justeson at gmail.com_ >(mailto:justeson at gmail.com) . > >John Justeson > > > >************************************** See what's free at >http://www.aol.com. > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:21:34 -0500 >From: "Elaine Day Schele" >Subject: [Aztlan] Maize Farming In Mexico - Earliest Evidence >To: "Aztlan" >Message-ID: <003e01c77b27$b9c169f0$6401a8c0 at gis> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >From Science Daily: >Source: Florida State University >Date: April 9, 2007 >Anthropologist Finds Earliest Evidence Of Maize Farming In Mexico >Science Daily - A Florida State University anthropologist has new evidence >that ancient farmers in Mexico were cultivating an early form of maize, the >forerunner of modern corn, about 7,300 years ago - 1,200 years earlier than >scholars previously thought. > >Professor Mary Pohl conducted an analysis of sediments in the Gulf Coast of >Tabasco, Mexico, and concluded that people were planting crops in the "New >World" of the Americas around 5,300 B.C. The analysis extends Pohl's >previous work in this area and validates principles of microfossil data >collection. > >The results of Pohl's study, which she conducted along with Dolores R. >Piperno of the National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C. and >the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in the Republic of Panama, >Kevin O. Pope of Geo Arc Research and John G. Jones of Washington State >University, will be published in the April 9-13 edition of the journal >Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. > >For the rest of the story: >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070409181647.htm > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 7 >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 18:42:37 -0700 (PDT) >From: "D. M. Urquidi" >Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org >Message-ID: <291804.72390.qm at web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Henry Avila > >When water is bad or dangerous to drink, things like >alcoholic fruit beverages, grapes, pineapple, >maiz,maguey, etc. are the solution. > >The Guatemala drink is similar to the Cali, Colombia >pineapple offering at meals; Not as alcoholic, only >three or four days (or a week) in a pot. in the hot >weather, this makes a slightly tart cerveza. It seems >that the whole of the Americas has some variant of >this drink. It keeps away diarrhea and other stomach >viruses and makes for healthy people IF not used in >excess. (Or not used with excess fermentation time.) > >Dea > >D. M. Urquidi > P. O. Box 49485 > Austin, Texas 78765 > http://www.mayalords.org > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/ > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Get your own web address. >Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. >http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 8 >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 06:53:28 -0700 (PDT) >From: David Hixson >Subject: [Aztlan] In Search of Nature - A new addition to the FAMSI > Journal by John Hoopes >To: Aztlan >Message-ID: <888695.5493.qm at web37002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >Estimados Listeros, > >We at the FAMSI Journal of the Ancient Americas are >pleased to announce the newest addition to our online >journal: > >In Search of Nature: Imagining the Precolumbian >Landscapes of Ancient Central America. > >By Dr. John W. Hoopes > >"Human impact on the ecology of the New World did not >begin with the arrival of European settlers. Nor is >the story of twelve millennia of human occupation one >of "low impact" with few lasting effects. In fact, it >is likely that alteration of the landscape in the >indigenous past was at least as significant as it has >been in the European present." > >This paper delves into the impact of human alteration >of the Central American landscape in the late >Holocene, with detailed evidence from the archaeology >and ecology of Costa Rica. > >This was formerly published on the "Aztlan E-Journal" >but has now been transferred to the FAMSI server in >order to insure that this valuable resource remains in >circulation on the web. > >Dr. Hoopes is a widely renowned archaeologist and >author, a pioneer of putting archaeology "on the web" >and one of the original founding members of the Aztlan >community. > >Please visit the FAMSI Journal website for the >complete article in PDF format (URL below), and be >sure to click on "Contributed Papers" to view a list >of all available articles. > >http://research.famsi.org/aztlan/aztlan_journal.php > >Saludos, > >Dave, Fritz and Mike >Aztlan Moderators & >FAMSI Journal Editors > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. >Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. >http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Aztlan mailing list >Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > >End of Aztlan Digest, Vol 17, Issue 8 >************************************* _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07 From schwallr at potsdam.edu Tue Apr 10 16:45:14 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:45:14 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Chicha Message-ID: <20070410205519.26331.qmail@hermes.potsdam.edu> Chicha of various sorts can be found throughout the Americas. It is also very popular in the Andes. In Inca times women would chew corn sprouts, and spit the mixture into bowls for fermentation. The salivary enzymes created a product not unlike "Light" beer. The word "chicha" comes from the natives of Panama, 'chichab' meaning maize, or so the Academia Real tells us. While tepache is from an indigenous language of Mexico, I'm not so sure it is from Nahuatl. I'll have to look into it. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax From michaelruggeri at mac.com Wed Apr 11 07:19:25 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 07:19:25 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] CLOVIS OR POSSIBLE PRE-CLOVIS HUMAN REMAINS FOUND AT TULUM Message-ID: Archaeologists find 3 prehistoric bodies in SE Mexico www.chinaview.cn -------------- next part -------------- 2007-04-11 11:39:34 Adjust font size: -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- MEXICO CITY, April 10 (Xinhua) -- Mexican archaeologists found remains of two women and a man that can be traced to more than 10,000 years ago in the Mayan area of Tulum, Mexico's National Anthropology and History Institute said in a statement on Tuesday. The remains were being examined by laboratories in Britain, the United States and Mexico, all of which had said the remains were people between 10,000 and 14,500 years ago, said Carmen Rojas, an archaeologist quoted in the statement. "This makes southeastern Mexico one of the few areas with a proven prehistoric presence in America," said Rojas. The remains were found in the Las Palmas, El Templo and Naharoncaves, in an area previously thought to be uninhabited. They are not Mayas because they do not have the classic Mayan skull deformation. The woman found in Naharon cave, 368 meters from its entrance and 22.6 meters underground, was 1.41 meters' tall, weighed around 53 kg and was between 20 and 30 years old when she died. The woman found in Las Palmas cave was between 44 and 50 when she died. The body found in El Templo cave was a man aged between 25 and 30. His body was the least well preserved because it had been eroded and most of its organic material was gone. Archaeologists have worked since 2002 to exhume the bodies from underwater caverns, said the statement. In the past the region was dry but the caves were flooded due in the last thaw of the Pleistocene ice age, it said. Archaeological finds showed the region was probably used as a refuge and a graveyard, said the Institute. The archaeologists also found campfire remains. Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/ index.html Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Mound Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ index.html From hwavila at tutopia.com Wed Apr 11 08:30:21 2007 From: hwavila at tutopia.com (Henry Avila) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:30:21 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] =?windows-1252?q?Digging_for_the_truth=3A_El_misterio_de?= =?windows-1252?q?_las_pir=E1mides_Mayas?= Message-ID: <000001c77c3f$83e8bb80$7319a8c0@lan> El d?a de ayer (martes) vi el episodio de Buscando la Verdad (Digging for the truth) correspondiente a El Misterio de las Piramides Mayas. Fue un episodio muy interesante y comienza con la tumba m?s famosa de la historia maya, la tumba de Pakal El Grande, en Palenque. Una tumba ingeniosamente oculta dentro de la pir?mide de las inscripciones tras un corredor que llega a un muro sin salida. En la base del muro se encuentra la puerta hacia la tumba de Pakal. Pakal El Grande le dio gloria y hegemon?a a Palenque, en su tumba se encontraron diversos objetos de joyer?a y cer?mica, uno de los m?s sobresalientes es una m?scara de Jade con ojos de concha. Se puede apreciar tambi?n un relieve en donde se ve a Pakal atravesando el umbral hacia el m?s all?. Burnstein se pregunta entonces por qu? la forma de las pir?mides, y se va al siguiente destino; para comprender la transici?n entre la vida y la muerte, Burnstein recurre a la Biblia Maya, el Popol Vuj. Chichicastenango es un pueblo lleno de folclore y tradici?n maya mezclada con Cristianismo. En ese lugar el padre Fray Francisco Ximenez encuentra el libro del Popol Vuj (Libro del consejo en espa?ol). Este documento narra la creaci?n del mundo y las aventuras de Junajp? e Ixbalanqu?, dos semidioses que vencen a las fuerzas del m?s all? o "Xibalb?" el inframundo Maya. Luego Burnstein visita Gumarcaj, un lugar donde la comunidad maya contempor?nea todav?a realiza rituales y ceremonias mayas en una cuevas construidas debajo del sitio arqueol?gico. Para comprender el misterio de las pir?mides Mayas Burnstein recurre a uno de los lugares m?s simb?licos de los mayas: Las Cuevas de Candelaria. Para llegar ah? Burnstein hace una parada en "Cancu?n" en donde -seg?n ?l- se entrevistar? con una de las personas que m?s sabe sobre los mayas en la actualidad: Arthur D?marest. Arthur D?marest le explica a Burnstein que Cancu?n era un sitio que no ten?a pir?mides, s?lo palacios, esto se debe a que ellos consideraban las Cuevas de Candelaria una especie de Templo y la entrada hacia el inframundo o Xibalb?. Finalmente Burnstein navega por el cauce del r?o hasta las famosas Cuevas de Candelaria, unas hermosas cuevas rodeadas de flora y efectivamente se ve y se siente como la entrada hacia otro mundo. Hacia el inframundo, hacia Xibalb?. Para finalizar, Burnstein concluye que los Mayas hicieron las pir?mides con forma de cerro o monta?a simbolizando los lugares altos, e hicieron peque?os cuartos o entradas en las pir?mides simbolizando cuevas o entradas al inframundo. Atentamente, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Henry ?vila Arqueolog?a Maya http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arqueologiamaya ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hemos manipulado el ambiente en beneficio de la poblaci?n, ahora, manipulemos la poblaci?n en beneficio del ambiente". ______________________________ Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar m?s r?pido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos. From borgsted at sas.upenn.edu Wed Apr 11 12:48:50 2007 From: borgsted at sas.upenn.edu (borgsted at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:48:50 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] =?iso-8859-1?q?Call_for_Papers=3A_II_Congreso_Centroamer?= =?iso-8859-1?q?icano_de_Arqueolog=EDa=2C_El_Salvador?= Message-ID: <1176313730.461d1f821d165@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> II Congreso Centroamericano de Arqueolog?a El Salvador, octubre 2007 FIRST CALL FOR PAPERS El CONSEJO NACIONAL PARA LA CULTURA EL ARTE and El MUSEO NACIONAL DE ANTROPOLOG?A ?DR. DAVID J. GUZM?N, El Salvador, invite you to participate in the Second Central American Congress of Archaeology in El Salvador, entitled: Cultural Relations in Prehispanic Central America. October 23 to 26, 2007 ORGANIZING COMMITTEE: CONCULTURA MUSEO NACIONAL DE ANTROPOLOGIA- MUNA ASOCIACION AMIGOS DEL MUNA- AAMUNA FUNDACION NACIONAL DE ARQUEOLOGIA- FUNDAR OBJECTIVES To consolidate the space created by the I Congress for intellectual exchange among members of the local and regional academic community, including both professionals and students. To increase the number of foreign and national participants, so that they contribute to increase the scientific production on Central American studies. To guarantee that this event fills the expectations of the assistant academic community, in such a way that it contributes significantly to the development of the knowledge of the region. The development of the I Congreso de Arqueolog?a carried out in October of 2005, was an intellectual event without precedents in El Salvador, due both to the number of participants and the variety and quality of its contributors. Up to 39 scholarly papers were given and supported by 34 academic institutions, among them 18 universities of 10 countries, including Central American participants, as well as scholars from Europe, Canada, the United States and Mexico, among others. Also, 5 conferences directed to the big public and 2 round tables took place at the facilities of the Museo Nacional de Antropolog?a. Our diagnosis counted a total of 206 participants, among scholars, students, teachers, researchers and general public, besides a good number of special guests. The first Congress, woke up big expectations in the intellectual world, which contributed to indicate the public in general the importance of the reflection on our prehispanic history, essential element in the permanent construction of a Central America that recognizes its diversity and values the contributions of all its citizens. Following the format of the first one, the II Central American Congress of Archaeology in El Salvador will allow to present up to date advances in the fields of anthropological and archaeological investigation, linguistics and ethnohistory of the region. It will also create a favorable space for the discussion and debate of the produced works; as a result regional knowledge will be fomented among both local and foreigner scholars. Also this Congress will allow the planning of other regional activities such as courses, seminars, exchanges and publications. We are sure that with your presence, our II Congress will become the focus of academic life and fraternal coexistence in a Central American spirit. Please circulate among faculty, students, and scholars. Contact Information: Email: gbellosuazol at concultura.gob.sv; afe at sas.upenn.edu Web Pages : www.munaelsalvador.com and www.congresodearqueologia.org Telfax: El Salvador : (503) 243-3750, (503) 243-3827, (503) 243 3927 y (503) 243-3928 E.E.U.U. : (215) 2057038 From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Wed Apr 11 11:38:04 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nick Hopkins) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:38:04 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Tepache Message-ID: <4A1A48A5-02C3-4701-BAA3-2CB6876DF35A@mailer.fsu.edu> Santamaria's Diccionario de Mejicanismos derives tepache from "azt. tepiatl, bebida de ma?z," and Molina's Nahuatl dictionary has the entry tepiatl 'bebida de ma?z crudo." Just how this gets to be "tepache" is another question, but probably through the honorific/ diminutive form *tepia-tzin. Nick Hopkins From walter_argueta at telgua.com.gt Wed Apr 11 11:14:04 2007 From: walter_argueta at telgua.com.gt (Walter Osmar Argueta) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:14:04 -0600 Subject: [Aztlan] =?windows-1252?q?=5BArqueolog=EDa_Maya=5D_Digging_for_th?= =?windows-1252?q?e_truth=3A_El_misterio_de_las_pir=E1mides_Mayas?= References: <000001c77c3f$83e8bb80$7319a8c0@lan> Message-ID: <010601c77c54$6c678850$374610ac@telgua.com.gt> Excelente narraci?n Henry. Adicionalmente les comento que ahora si, en History Channel, el domingo 14 se transmitir? el documental de "Los Mayas" en Construyendo un Imperio. Era el que est?bamos esperando no. Henry o alguien en Guatemala, si pueden grabar dicho documental les agradecer?a una copia, [luego nos ponemos de acuerdo con el costo]. Reciban mis m?s sinceros saludos. ----- Original Message ----- From: Henry Avila To: Foro Aztlan ; Arqueolog?a Maya Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:30 AM Subject: [Arqueolog?a Maya] Digging for the truth: El misterio de las pir?mides Mayas El d?a de ayer (martes) vi el episodio de Buscando la Verdad (Digging for the truth) correspondiente a El Misterio de las Piramides Mayas. Fue un episodio muy interesante y comienza con la tumba m?s famosa de la historia maya, la tumba de Pakal El Grande, en Palenque. Una tumba ingeniosamente oculta dentro de la pir?mide de las inscripciones tras un corredor que llega a un muro sin salida. En la base del muro se encuentra la puerta hacia la tumba de Pakal. Pakal El Grande le dio gloria y hegemon?a a Palenque, en su tumba se encontraron diversos objetos de joyer?a y cer?mica, uno de los m?s sobresalientes es una m?scara de Jade con ojos de concha. Se puede apreciar tambi?n un relieve en donde se ve a Pakal atravesando el umbral hacia el m?s all?. Burnstein se pregunta entonces por qu? la forma de las pir?mides, y se va al siguiente destino; para comprender la transici?n entre la vida y la muerte, Burnstein recurre a la Biblia Maya, el Popol Vuj. Chichicastenango es un pueblo lleno de folclore y tradici?n maya mezclada con Cristianismo. En ese lugar el padre Fray Francisco Ximenez encuentra el libro del Popol Vuj (Libro del consejo en espa?ol). Este documento narra la creaci?n del mundo y las aventuras de Junajp? e Ixbalanqu?, dos semidioses que vencen a las fuerzas del m?s all? o "Xibalb?" el inframundo Maya. Luego Burnstein visita Gumarcaj, un lugar donde la comunidad maya contempor?nea todav?a realiza rituales y ceremonias mayas en una cuevas construidas debajo del sitio arqueol?gico. Para comprender el misterio de las pir?mides Mayas Burnstein recurre a uno de los lugares m?s simb?licos de los mayas: Las Cuevas de Candelaria. Para llegar ah? Burnstein hace una parada en "Cancu?n" en donde -seg?n ?l- se entrevistar? con una de las personas que m?s sabe sobre los mayas en la actualidad: Arthur D?marest. Arthur D?marest le explica a Burnstein que Cancu?n era un sitio que no ten?a pir?mides, s?lo palacios, esto se debe a que ellos consideraban las Cuevas de Candelaria una especie de Templo y la entrada hacia el inframundo o Xibalb?. Finalmente Burnstein navega por el cauce del r?o hasta las famosas Cuevas de Candelaria, unas hermosas cuevas rodeadas de flora y efectivamente se ve y se siente como la entrada hacia otro mundo. Hacia el inframundo, hacia Xibalb?. Para finalizar, Burnstein concluye que los Mayas hicieron las pir?mides con forma de cerro o monta?a simbolizando los lugares altos, e hicieron peque?os cuartos o entradas en las pir?mides simbolizando cuevas o entradas al inframundo. Atentamente, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Henry ?vila Arqueolog?a Maya http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arqueologiamaya ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hemos manipulado el ambiente en beneficio de la poblaci?n, ahora, manipulemos la poblaci?n en beneficio del ambiente". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visita www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar m?s r?pido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos. __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity a.. 4New Photos b.. 1New Files Visit Your Group Top Scientist 10 Greatest Ever Share and vote on Bix.com! Yahoo! News Entertainment News The latest on stars, movies, and more Yahoo! TV Get American Idol recaps, pics and much more! . __,_._,___ From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Apr 11 14:02:32 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:02:32 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Tepache Message-ID: <20070411181954.3451.qmail@hermes.potsdam.edu> >Santamaria's Diccionario de Mejicanismos derives >tepache from "azt. tepiatl, bebida de ma?z," and >Molina's Nahuatl dictionary has the entry >tepiatl 'bebida de ma?z crudo." Just how this >gets to be "tepache" is another question, but >probably through the honorific/diminutive form *tepia-tzin. There is a parallel discussion going on in the nahuatl at lists.famsi.org discussion list. In spite of what Santamaria wrote, in all likelihood it comes from: pachtli - something crushed The one outstanding question is the role of the te- prefix Te- usually is the nonspecific human object marker or the nonspecific possessive, e.g.: temictiani (he routinely kills someone = murderer) or tenantzin (someone's honorable mother). There is no clear way that "tepiatl" could end up "tepache" under the rules of Nahuatl phonology. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Wed Apr 11 16:25:06 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nicholas Hopkins) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:25:06 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Tepache Message-ID: <9C0343A2-017A-4B7C-93C3-C9E59F0DB058@mailer.fsu.edu> "There is no clear way that "tepiatl" could end up "tepache" under the rules of Nahuatl phonology," John F. Schwaller Right, I agree. But if the loanword to Spanish is based on tepiatzin, not tepiatl, there are parallel loan words that end up having "che" in place of "tzin." So it's not a question of Nahuatl phonology, but the assimilation of Nahuatl words to Spanish. Nick Hopkins From schwallr at potsdam.edu Wed Apr 11 20:39:20 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Tepache In-Reply-To: <9C0343A2-017A-4B7C-93C3-C9E59F0DB058@mailer.fsu.edu> References: <9C0343A2-017A-4B7C-93C3-C9E59F0DB058@mailer.fsu.edu> Message-ID: <1153.137.143.69.91.1176341960.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> What I failed to mention is that Molina and others do have words with the morpheme "tepach" in them, showing that it existed, in all likelihood, in Nahuatl before being borrowed into Spanish. > "There is no clear way that "tepiatl" could end up > "tepache" under the rules of Nahuatl phonology," John F. Schwaller > > Right, I agree. But if the loanword to Spanish is based on > tepiatzin, not tepiatl, there are parallel loan words that end up > having "che" in place of "tzin." So it's not a question of Nahuatl > phonology, but the assimilation of Nahuatl words to Spanish. > > Nick Hopkins > > -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu From michaelruggeri at mac.com Wed Apr 11 21:43:46 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:43:46 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] SACRIFICES AT TEOTIHUACAN WERE FOREIGNERS Message-ID: Ancient Mexicans Took Sacrifice Victims From Afar 11/04/2007 23:56 MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Ancient Mexicans brought human sacrifice victims from hundreds of miles (km) away over centuries to sanctify a pyramid in the oldest city in North America, an archaeologist said on Wednesday. DNA tests on the skeletons of more than 50 victims discovered in 2004 in the Pyramid of the Moon at the Teotihuacan ruins revealed they were from far away Mayan, Pacific or Atlantic coastal cultures. The bodies, many of which were decapitated, dated from between 50 AD and 500 AD and were killed at different times to dedicate new stages of construction of the pyramid just north of Mexico City. The victims were likely either captured in war or obtained through some kind of diplomacy, said archaeologist Ruben Cabrera, who led the excavation at the pyramid, the smaller of two main pyramids are Teotihuacan, which housed some 200,000 inhabitants at its height of power around 500 AD. "Teotihuacan may have had a tradition of capturing prisoners for sacrifice," said Cabrera. Ancient Mexican civilisations like the Aztecs sacrificed humans by cutting their hearts out but researchers are not sure how the victims at Teotihuacan were killed. Little is known about the race that inhabited Teotihuacan or what language they spoke. The site, Mexico?s oldest major archaeological site, was revered by later Mesoamerican civilisations, including the Aztecs, who gave it its current name, meaning "The place where gods are made" in their Nahuatl language. Teotihuacan icons found in far away Mayan ruins in Guatemala and Honduras show the city?s broad reach. Littered among the victims? bodies at the pyramid are remains of animals that had symbolic importance including pumas, coyotes, eagles and snakes as well as a large number of precious objects like obsidian knives. Discoveries in the early 1980s of sacrificial victims and weapons skewered previous theories that Teotihuacan had a peaceful culture, unlike the warlike Aztecs and Maya. "Researchers always tried to throw a little fog over it, but there was human sacrifice even if we don?t know if it had to do with wars," said Cabrera. Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/ index.html Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Mound Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ index.html From casal at infotex.com.pe Thu Apr 12 07:15:08 2007 From: casal at infotex.com.pe (Mario Cabrejos) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:15:08 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Chewing and spitting Message-ID: <01a101c77cfc$36181820$0201a8c0@MARIO> From: "John F. Schwaller" Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 > Chicha of various sorts can be found throughout the Americas. It is > also very popular in the Andes. In Inca times women would chew corn > sprouts, and spit the mixture into bowls for fermentation. The > salivary enzymes created a product not unlike "Light" beer. ------------------------------------------ Hola John First time I read that corn chicha was (is) made by spitting... What is still on use in the amazon rainforest is to chew and spit the washed casava (Manihot esculenta) root paste in order to prepare casava "beer". Regards Mario From brokaw at buffalo.edu Thu Apr 12 09:46:13 2007 From: brokaw at buffalo.edu (brokaw at buffalo.edu) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:46:13 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Tepache In-Reply-To: <1153.137.143.69.91.1176341960.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> References: <9C0343A2-017A-4B7C-93C3-C9E59F0DB058@mailer.fsu.edu> <1153.137.143.69.91.1176341960.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> Message-ID: <1176389173.461e4635cc7d2@mail2.buffalo.edu> On the nahuatl list, John Sullivan mentioned that ?pachtli? can refer to the pulp that is produced when you crush cane or other fruits to get juice. Presumably this is done or at least would have originally been done with a stone. The verbal form ?tepachoa? means ?apedrear,? with the ?te? element from ?tetl,? which means stone. So if the Nahuatl word ?tepachtli? refers to a kind of drink, and again on the Nahuatl list Barry Sell cited a document where it does, and if this substantive form is related to the verbal ?tepachoa,? which it seems to be, then the ?te? in ?tepachtli? would also be from ?tetl.? So ?tepachtli? would mean ?something stone-crushed.? John?s point was that the semantic-morophological logic of "pachtli" as "pulp" seems to be based on the relationship between the process and the product. "Tepachtli," then, would appear to be a more specific variant of the more generic term "pachtli." So, the semantic-morphological logic of "tepachtli" would be that the drink is produced as a result of ?stone-crushing? the cane or the fruit, thus it is something stone-crushed. And the hispanicization of ?tepachtli? would easily produce ?tepache.? We get ?aguacate? from ?ahuacatl? and ?pozole? from ?pozolli.? If these words are indicative of the general tendency in the hispanicization of Nahuatl nouns, then the tendency seems to be: with noun stems that end in a vowel, the "tl" absolutive suffix drops the ?l? and adds an ?e?, as in ahuacatl=aguacate; with noun stems that end in a consonant, the "tli" absolutive suffix drops the ?tl? and changes the ?i? to an ?e,? as in pozolli=pozole. In Nahuat when you have noun stems that end in "l", the absolutive suffix "tli" loses its "t"; so pozoltli becomes pozolli. So "pozolli" is not the clearest illustrative example, because it has already dropped the "t" of its absolutive suffix. But it was the only one I can think of at the moment. Galen Quoting "John F. Schwaller" : > What I failed to mention is that Molina and others do have words with > the > morpheme "tepach" in them, showing that it existed, in all > likelihood, in > Nahuatl before being borrowed into Spanish. > > > > > "There is no clear way that "tepiatl" could end up > > "tepache" under the rules of Nahuatl phonology," John F. Schwaller > > > > Right, I agree. But if the loanword to Spanish is based on > > tepiatzin, not tepiatl, there are parallel loan words that end up > > having "che" in place of "tzin." So it's not a question of > Nahuatl > > phonology, but the assimilation of Nahuatl words to Spanish. > > > > Nick Hopkins > > > > > > > -- > John F. Schwaller > President, > SUNY Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > schwallr at potsdam.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > From mayavase at verizon.net Thu Apr 12 09:52:21 2007 From: mayavase at verizon.net (Justin Kerr) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:52:21 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Chewing and spitting In-Reply-To: <01a101c77cfc$36181820$0201a8c0@MARIO> Message-ID: <007901c77d12$2d2b8a60$6701a8c0@justnew> Dear Friends, I have posted a picture of a Shipibo vessel of the type that is used for fermentation. This one measures 32 inches and 28 inches at the widest point. www.mayavase.com/shipibo vessel.jpg My understanding is that the vessel sits in sand up to the point where the decoration starts, so that the conical bottom is totally covered. Justin Kerr -----Original Message----- From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Mario Cabrejos Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:15 AM To: LISTA AZTLAN Subject: [Aztlan] Chewing and spitting From: "John F. Schwaller" Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 > Chicha of various sorts can be found throughout the Americas. It is > also very popular in the Andes. In Inca times women would chew corn > sprouts, and spit the mixture into bowls for fermentation. The > salivary enzymes created a product not unlike "Light" beer. ------------------------------------------ Hola John First time I read that corn chicha was (is) made by spitting... What is still on use in the amazon rainforest is to chew and spit the washed casava (Manihot esculenta) root paste in order to prepare casava "beer". Regards Mario _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From casal at infotex.com.pe Thu Apr 12 21:58:00 2007 From: casal at infotex.com.pe (Mario Cabrejos) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:58:00 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] conical bottom on chicha vessels References: <007901c77d12$2d2b8a60$6701a8c0@justnew> Message-ID: <026501c77d77$8bf70370$0201a8c0@MARIO> > Dear Friends, Hola Justin. ------------------------- > My understanding is that the vessel sits in sand up to the point > where the decoration starts, so that the conical bottom is totally > covered. What I know is that the conical botton is used as a pivotal point that helps to incline the piece and serve the masato to the people that gathers around the vessel, so it should be "free" to reach maximun inclination. Sand or a vegetable ring could be used if the intention is to mantain the vessel standing up alone. The same principle works in the aribalo, the Inca chica vessel, sometimes so big (have seen some almost 5 feet tall) that has a hand piece and two handles. Saludos cordiales, Mario From eschele at austin.rr.com Thu Apr 12 22:14:45 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:14:45 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Preserving Ancient Maya Inscriptions Message-ID: <000f01c77d79$e3827140$6401a8c0@gis> >From the Harvard University Gazette Online http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2007/04.12/01-yaxpre.html Harvard researchers head south to preserve ancient inscriptions By Alvin Powell Harvard News Office Researchers from the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology are preparing to head into the Central American rain forest to begin an ambitious, multiyear project to scan and digitize fading Maya inscriptions and carvings. The expedition, by the Corpus of Maya Hieroglyphic Inscriptions Program (CMHI), will focus on Yaxchilan, an ancient Maya city on the Usumacinta River, which forms the border between Mexico and Guatemala. The CMHI's mission since its formation in 1968 is to record and disseminate information pertaining to all ancient Maya hieroglyphic inscriptions and their associated iconography. During the height of its power, Yaxchilan dominated the Usumacinta region, its influence peaking during the eighth century. Located in modern-day Mexico and reachable only by boat, today it is known for its excellent carvings and narrative inscriptions. The nine-member team will employ advanced technology in an effort to preserve the elaborate Maya hieroglyphics, images, and stone carvings that are free-standing or decorate various buildings at Yaxchilan. Researchers will use an optical scanner to create a digital, three-dimensional image of each carving. The image will be stored in a computer file, much like a word document or a photograph. It can be examined, shared digitally, and even "printed out," layer by layer, on a special, 3-D printer that creates a three-dimensional reproduction of the carving. Barbara Fash, director of the Corpus of Maya Hieroglyphic Inscriptions Program, said Yaxchilan was chosen because it has many different types of monuments on which the new technology can be tested. Its rain forest setting will also test the equipment in a humid, tropical environment. Archaeologists have long recognized that the carvings on Maya monuments are imperiled and have mounted various efforts to preserve them, including removing them to museums, creating paper molds that were used to make plaster casts, and, more recently, making latex molds of the monuments. The effort has raced the natural degradation caused by the wind and weather, and, in recent decades, by the corrosive forces of acid rain. Human destruction is an important factor as well, as some monuments have been defaced, others stolen by looters, and still others broken up by local people to be used in construction projects. Every carving that is lost, and every detail of surviving carvings that has faded away has taken with it an opportunity to learn more about the ancient Maya civilization, according to Fash. The effort to decipher the Maya's written Mayan language is ongoing and the small dots and squiggles carved alongside images of coronations and other aspects of Maya life are critical details in understanding the history that underlies each image. Using the digital files of the monuments, researchers hope to resurrect some lost details. Peabody archives hold 50,000 photographs of Maya monuments, some of which contain lost details of the monuments. By digitizing the images and combining them with the soon-to-be-created 3-D images, researchers hope to be able to re-create the monuments as they existed decades ago. If the field trial is successful, the Corpus plans to visit other important Maya sites, recording as many carvings and monuments as possible to preserve them for the future. From sarthurmorris at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 22:10:37 2007 From: sarthurmorris at gmail.com (S.A. Morris) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:10:37 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Kings of Stone Message-ID: Looking for a copy of: David Stuart's *1996 Kings of Stone: A Consideration of Ancient Stelae in Maya Ritual and Representation.* RES, 29-30: 148-71. Tulane and Loyola Universities don't have it. Thanks, Arthur From eschele at austin.rr.com Fri Apr 13 07:37:26 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 07:37:26 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Dave Stuart's New Weblog Message-ID: <003301c77dc8$7e4068b0$6401a8c0@gis> Dear Listeros, David Stuart has started a weblog devoted to ancient Maya glyph decipherment and observations. He says that "I'm hoping other epigraphers besides me will contribute so we can circulate serious ideas in a semi-formal way." To see his first posts go to: http://decipherment.wordpress.com/about/ He asks that everyone circulate this link to those you think interested. Elaine From eschele at austin.rr.com Fri Apr 13 10:31:24 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:31:24 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Xibun Archaeological Research Project Message-ID: <004501c77de0$cbf3d750$6401a8c0@gis> Hello Everyone, I just discovered a great website about the Sibun River Valley (2001 and 2003 seasons) with two links where you can download the entire reports or just sections of them. They are posted on a Boston University website and are edited reports on the archaeology of the Sibun River Valley with many writer-contributors. The first one has some great info on caves in that area. Between the Gorge and the Estuary: Archaeological Investigations of the 2001 Season of the Xibun Archaeological Research Project http://www.bu.edu/tricia/reports/xarp2003/index.shtml And then another that is from the 2003 season Sibun Valley from Late Classic through Colonial Times: Investigations of the 2003 Season of the Xibun Archaeological Research Project http://www.bu.edu/tricia/reports/xarp2004/index.shtml Enjoy, Elaine From jglsharpe at msn.com Sat Apr 14 11:49:18 2007 From: jglsharpe at msn.com (jglsharpe Sharpe) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:49:18 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine In-Reply-To: <002501c77af1$a9f71dc0$7319a8c0@lan> Message-ID: Hi, Many years ago while I was in San Cristobal De Las Casas we had wandered into a Mayan fiesta one evening at a church on the outskirts of town. We were the only gringos there. We were invited to drink what sounded to me like "posh" or Potch", which must be the "tepache" mentioned in other postings. It was in a very large kettle, simmering over a small fire. It appeared to contain a stew of a variety of fruits. However they were adding rum and cane sugar liquor. I was thinking the alcohol must be burning off, but it was quite strong. A few of the drinkers were very drunk. Later when we were visiting the Blom house/museum, some of the people there said it was Chicha and had never heard of the term "posh". I feel somewhat vindicated seeing the term tepache. Jeff Sharpe >From: "Henry Avila" >To: >Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Maya Alcoholic Fruits Wine >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:54:21 -0500 > > >Alcoholic Fruits Wine > >Well, I don?t know if this drink is from maya origin, but certainly it is >very antique here in high lands of Guatemala. And it is prepared almost >only for the maya comunity. > >Consist in a mix of fruits pieces in a boiling soup, many kinds of fruits, >and then it gets bury for about three weeks. After that lapse, it is ready >for drink. > >This drink is known as "koosha" and it is forbbiden by the goverment. It >is >very alcoholic, I proved it and I think it is like a shot of tequila. One >person can be easily get drunk with a few drinks. I was wondering if this >was an antique drink just like the "maize wine". > >Regards. > >______________________________ >Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar m?s r?pido en Internet. >Tutopia es Internet para todos. >_______________________________________________ >Aztlan mailing list >Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as $771/month* https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117 From eschele at austin.rr.com Sat Apr 14 18:40:28 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:40:28 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Call For Graduate Student Papers Message-ID: <002101c77eee$48684e20$6401a8c0@gis> The History Department of the University of Texas at Arlington (UTA) and the Transatlantic History Student Organization (THSO) are sponsoring the Eighth Annual Graduate Student Symposium on Transatlantic History. Since 1999, this symposium has proved to be an excellent venue for the discussion of the interrelations between peoples of the Atlantic World. The voluntary and forced movement of people to the Americas involved an unprecedented exchange of cultures. Among the most fundamental aspects of this contact were religious and spiritual encounters. Much like other cultural "ways," religion and spirituality were subject to constant interplay and reinterpretation. This malleability contributed to a variety of syncretic expressions in the New World. We invite papers that deal with spiritual exchanges between Europeans and Amerindians or Europeans and Africans since 1492. Dr. Allan Greer of the University of Toronto, author of the acclaimed work Mohawk Saint: Catherine Tekakwitha and the Jesuits (2005), will be delivering the keynote address. Graduate students from history and other disciplines are invited to submit a three-hundred-word abstract and abbreviated curriculum vita by July 1, 2007. Authors of papers accepted for a twenty-minute presentation will be notified by August 1, 2007. Selected participants will be awarded a small travel stipend to help offset expenses. Please e-mail your abstract to: Gregory Kosc at gkosc at uta.edu and Dr. Steven Reinhardt at reinhard at uta.edu. Note: Be sure to include your e-mail and mailing address to ensure that you can be reached during the summer of 2007. From randa at armory.com Sun Apr 15 01:05:39 2007 From: randa at armory.com (Randa Marhenke) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 23:05:39 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Some old publications Message-ID: <200704142305.aa11964@deepthought.armory.com> The following are available (among other treasures) from Internet Archive: http://www.archive.org/ Arte de la lengua tarasca, dispuesto con nuevo estilo y claridad por el r. p. m. fr. Diego Basalenque - Basalenque, Diego, 1577-1651 Arte mexicana - Rinc?n, Antonio del, 1556-1601 Keywords: Nahuatl language -- Grammar The Book of Chilam Balam of Chumayel; with introd. by G.B. Gordon; Hoil, Juan Jos?, fl. 1782 Enjoy--Randa From mail at guatemalaweb.com Sun Apr 15 14:15:01 2007 From: mail at guatemalaweb.com (GuateWeb - Posada Belen) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:15:01 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Question about arrows and arch Message-ID: <011201c77f92$5e1ead50$0401a8c0@GUATEWEBTIKAL> Dear Listeros I will like to ask if is any one who can point me to some light about when the inhabitants of mesoamerica and specially Guatemala started the use of the arrow and archs? and if any study/information about the rock weels (known as "donas") that are so common in Guatemala? Thank you for any help Rene Sanchinelli www.posadabelen.com www.guatemalaweb.com From mayavase at verizon.net Mon Apr 16 07:14:22 2007 From: mayavase at verizon.net (Justin Kerr) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:14:22 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Question about arrows and arch In-Reply-To: <011201c77f92$5e1ead50$0401a8c0@GUATEWEBTIKAL> Message-ID: <000001c78020$c4f1d3c0$6701a8c0@justnew> Dear Rene, This is a negative reply. In searching the Maya Vase Database, I have not found any indications of the use of arrows or the suggestion that during the period that vases were painted, incised, or carved that "bows and arrows" were in use. The only "weapons of flight" that are observed is the use of either the blowgun or the atl-atl. Here I may be a heretic, but the very early accounts of the use of the bow and arrow may be a product of imagination on the part of the Europeans who made assumptions that bows must be in use when shafts from atl-atls were flying about them. In doing quick glance through the pages of various "maticula de tributos" of the Aztec times ones does not find any "bows or arrows" depicted. In Western Mexican art, Colima for example, there are depictions of the use of the sling, but again no arrows. If anyone has any images of the use of the "bow and arrow" in Mesoamerica, I would be happy to know about them. Justin Kerr -----Original Message----- From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of GuateWeb - Posada Belen Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 3:15 PM To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Aztlan] Question about arrows and arch Dear Listeros I will like to ask if is any one who can point me to some light about when the inhabitants of mesoamerica and specially Guatemala started the use of the arrow and archs? and if any study/information about the rock weels (known as "donas") that are so common in Guatemala? Thank you for any help Rene Sanchinelli www.posadabelen.com www.guatemalaweb.com _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From eschele at austin.rr.com Mon Apr 16 08:09:28 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:09:28 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Huichol Bows and Arrows References: <000001c78020$c4f1d3c0$6701a8c0@justnew> Message-ID: <003801c78028$7731d470$6401a8c0@gis> Dear Listserv Administrators, I know that you can't send out images, but I wanted to share these two that I have attached, so perhaps you could create links for them. Hi Rene, The Huichol Indians, who did not live in Guatemala but were from the Eastern Mexican state of Nayarit used bows and arrows. They called their bows "grandfather" and arrows "feathered serpents." The arrows in the picture are ceremonial arrows, but they also had arrows that they used for hunting. They thought that the feathers on the end of the arrows possessed the magic of the flight of birds (they didn't know the physics of it), since they helped the arrow hit its mark better. These are also the Indians who make the "God's eyes". Carl Lumholtz studied these people during the late and early 1900's and wrote several documents about them, the most extensive of which was "The symbolism of the Huichol Indians". The document is available online at http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/. You can use the search engine to find it. Elaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Kerr" To: "'GuateWeb - Posada Belen'" ; Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 7:14 AM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Question about arrows and arch > Dear Rene, > This is a negative reply. > In searching the Maya Vase Database, I have not found any indications of the > use of arrows or the suggestion that during the period that vases were > painted, incised, or carved that "bows and arrows" were in use. The only > "weapons of flight" that are observed is the use of either the blowgun or > the atl-atl. > Here I may be a heretic, but the very early accounts of the use of the bow > and arrow may be a product of imagination on the part of the Europeans who > made assumptions that bows must be in use when shafts from atl-atls were > flying about them. > In doing quick glance through the pages of various "maticula de tributos" of > the Aztec times ones does not find any "bows or arrows" depicted. > In Western Mexican art, Colima for example, there are depictions of the use > of the sling, but again no arrows. > If anyone has any images of the use of the "bow and arrow" in Mesoamerica, I > would be happy to know about them. > Justin Kerr > > -----Original Message----- > From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > On Behalf Of GuateWeb - Posada Belen > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 3:15 PM > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] Question about arrows and arch > > Dear Listeros > > I will like to ask if is any one who can point me to some light about when > the inhabitants of mesoamerica and specially Guatemala started the use of > the arrow and archs? and if any study/information about the rock weels > (known as "donas") that are so common in Guatemala? > > Thank you for any help > > Rene Sanchinelli > www.posadabelen.com > www.guatemalaweb.com > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Apr 16 09:11:04 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:11:04 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and arrows Message-ID: <20070416131806.5237.qmail@hermes.potsdam.edu> For the Nahua (Aztecs), bows and arrows were a sign of barbarism. While they knew of the technology, I do not recall many references of their use, other than when they were wandering hunters and gatherers, Chichimeca, before arriving in the civilized regions of Central Mexico. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax From mayavase at verizon.net Mon Apr 16 08:52:32 2007 From: mayavase at verizon.net (Justin Kerr) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:52:32 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Huichol Bows and Arrows In-Reply-To: <003801c78028$7731d470$6401a8c0@gis> Message-ID: <001001c7802e$7bc04e80$6701a8c0@justnew> Dear Elaine, The Huichol are extremely versatile people, they have adapted to their changing environment. I am arguing about pre-contact images. Descriptions or images after contact don't count. Justin -----Original Message----- From: Elaine Day Schele [mailto:eschele at austin.rr.com] Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:09 AM To: Justin Kerr; 'GuateWeb - Posada Belen'; aztlan at lists.famsi.org Subject: Huichol Bows and Arrows Dear Listserv Administrators, I know that you can't send out images, but I wanted to share these two that I have attached, so perhaps you could create links for them. Hi Rene, The Huichol Indians, who did not live in Guatemala but were from the Eastern Mexican state of Nayarit used bows and arrows. They called their bows "grandfather" and arrows "feathered serpents." The arrows in the picture are ceremonial arrows, but they also had arrows that they used for hunting. They thought that the feathers on the end of the arrows possessed the magic of the flight of birds (they didn't know the physics of it), since they helped the arrow hit its mark better. These are also the Indians who make the "God's eyes". Carl Lumholtz studied these people during the late and early 1900's and wrote several documents about them, the most extensive of which was "The symbolism of the Huichol Indians". The document is available online at http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/. You can use the search engine to find it. Elaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Kerr" To: "'GuateWeb - Posada Belen'" ; Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 7:14 AM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Question about arrows and arch > Dear Rene, > This is a negative reply. > In searching the Maya Vase Database, I have not found any indications of the > use of arrows or the suggestion that during the period that vases were > painted, incised, or carved that "bows and arrows" were in use. The only > "weapons of flight" that are observed is the use of either the blowgun or > the atl-atl. > Here I may be a heretic, but the very early accounts of the use of the bow > and arrow may be a product of imagination on the part of the Europeans who > made assumptions that bows must be in use when shafts from atl-atls were > flying about them. > In doing quick glance through the pages of various "maticula de tributos" of > the Aztec times ones does not find any "bows or arrows" depicted. > In Western Mexican art, Colima for example, there are depictions of the use > of the sling, but again no arrows. > If anyone has any images of the use of the "bow and arrow" in Mesoamerica, I > would be happy to know about them. > Justin Kerr > > -----Original Message----- > From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > On Behalf Of GuateWeb - Posada Belen > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 3:15 PM > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] Question about arrows and arch > > Dear Listeros > > I will like to ask if is any one who can point me to some light about when > the inhabitants of mesoamerica and specially Guatemala started the use of > the arrow and archs? and if any study/information about the rock weels > (known as "donas") that are so common in Guatemala? > > Thank you for any help > > Rene Sanchinelli > www.posadabelen.com > www.guatemalaweb.com > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From daniel at elchicano.net Mon Apr 16 10:57:08 2007 From: daniel at elchicano.net (daniel at elchicano.net) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:57:08 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows Message-ID: <46239CD4.7000806@elchicano.net> Hello, This is not a bow and arrow but I think this is what the Mesheeka would've used (in battle at least): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl There are a couple of websites that make modern versions available for sale also. Saludos a Todos, Daniel Maldonado Webmaster http://chicanoforums.com From L9OTTO at stthomas.edu Mon Apr 16 10:52:19 2007 From: L9OTTO at stthomas.edu (Otto, Lon) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Sources Message-ID: <06892F6F0783B44C88CB3656C0C194003D44CC@UST-EXCHBE1.stthomas.edu> Estimados Listeros: I would like to request that we give at least general source references when making absolute statements about the beliefs and opinions of ancient people, at least when those statements express positions that do not seem to be common knowledge among those interested in the subject. "According to X," or "Judging by Y," or "Extrapolating from Z" provides the tools to go beyond simple acceptance or rejection of a statement. I'm not asking for the formal documentation appropriate to a scholarly monograph, just an answer to the question that should always hang in the air during intellectual discussions: What makes you think this? Respectfully, Lon Otto -----Original Message----- From: John F. Schwaller [mailto:schwallr at potsdam.edu] Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:11 AM To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and arrows For the Nahua (Aztecs), bows and arrows were a sign of barbarism. While they knew of the technology, I do not recall many references of their use, other than when they were wandering hunters and gatherers, Chichimeca, before arriving in the civilized regions of Central Mexico. John F. Schwaller President SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 315-267-2100 315-267-2496 fax _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From micc2 at cox.net Mon Apr 16 10:51:59 2007 From: micc2 at cox.net (micc2) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:51:59 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Question about arrows and arch In-Reply-To: <000001c78020$c4f1d3c0$6701a8c0@justnew> References: <000001c78020$c4f1d3c0$6701a8c0@justnew> Message-ID: <46239B9F.7000702@cox.net> Dear Justin, I am sure that my better prepared colleagues will reply to you with a better answer, BUT the word for a spear thrower is pronounced A'-tlatl NOT atl-atl. Atl-atl means "water, water." there is a glottal stop before the first A (Ah-tlatl) I remember hearing a ranger at the Mesa Verde National Park museum say the word, and suddenly I realized that the popular pronunciation was way off the mark. I hope this helps! Justin Kerr wrote: > Dear Rene, > This is a negative reply. > In searching the Maya Vase Database, I have not found any indications of the > use of arrows or the suggestion that during the period that vases were > painted, incised, or carved that "bows and arrows" were in use. The only > "weapons of flight" that are observed is the use of either the blowgun or > the atl-atl. > Here I may be a heretic, but the very early accounts of the use of the bow > and arrow may be a product of imagination on the part of the Europeans who > made assumptions that bows must be in use when shafts from atl-atls were > flying about them. > In doing quick glance through the pages of various "maticula de tributos" of > the Aztec times ones does not find any "bows or arrows" depicted. > In Western Mexican art, Colima for example, there are depictions of the use > of the sling, but again no arrows. > If anyone has any images of the use of the "bow and arrow" in Mesoamerica, I > would be happy to know about them. > Justin Kerr > > -----Original Message----- > From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] > On Behalf Of GuateWeb - Posada Belen > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 3:15 PM > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: [Aztlan] Question about arrows and arch > > Dear Listeros > > I will like to ask if is any one who can point me to some light about when > the inhabitants of mesoamerica and specially Guatemala started the use of > the arrow and archs? and if any study/information about the rock weels > (known as "donas") that are so common in Guatemala? > > Thank you for any help > > Rene Sanchinelli > www.posadabelen.com > www.guatemalaweb.com > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > From randa at armory.com Mon Apr 16 12:07:56 2007 From: randa at armory.com (Randa Marhenke) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:07:56 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] BNF Message-ID: <200704161007.aa08986@deepthought.armory.com> I was a bit surprised by the positive response I got from my recent note about the Internet Archive. Another site that I have enjoyed using for some time now is the Biblioth?que Nationale de France, at: http://gallica.bnf.fr >From this, among many other gems, one can download: Humboldt, the first (1688) edition of Cogolludo, Brasseur de Bourbourg's version of Landa's "Relacion de las Cosas de Yucatan", his "Grammaire de la Langue Quich?e", "Popol Vuh", all 48 of the Annual Reports of the BAE, and many Bulletins of the BAE. Truly a wonderful site! Happy Hunting, Randa From Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu Mon Apr 16 09:13:04 2007 From: Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu (Sam Edgerton) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:13:04 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20070416094955.02428978@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Listeros: Bows and arrows were the weapons of choice among the so-called Chichimecs in the "wild" regions north of the Aztec Empire, at least by the mid-sixteenth century. Such warriors clearly armed with bows and arrows are illustrated in combat with maccuahuitl-wielding Otomi Indians in the extraordinary murals painted on the nave walls of the Augustinian convento church at Ixmiquilpan, Hidalgo, apparently by native artists around 1570. See the several reproductions of these scenes photographed in color by Jorge Perez de Lara in my THEATERS OF CONVERSION: RELIGIOUS ARCHITECTURE AND INDIAN ARTISANS IN COLONIAL MEXICO (University of New Mexico Press, 2001) pp. 162-168. Sam Edgerton From Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu Mon Apr 16 09:45:21 2007 From: Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu (Sam Edgerton) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:45:21 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20070416103919.024fcb18@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Hi again Listeros: Here's a URL of one of Jorge's Ixmiquilpan-mural photos showing a struggle between a "Chichimec" holding a bow and arrows, and an Otomi warrior emerging from a flower dressed in a jaguar skin, and armed with a maccuahuitl. Sam Edgerton http://lanfiles.williams.edu/~sedgerto/IXMIQ.jpg From gregory_sandor at hotmail.com Mon Apr 16 14:08:41 2007 From: gregory_sandor at hotmail.com (Greg Sandor) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:08:41 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070416103919.024fcb18@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Message-ID: The foliate decoration on that mural really looks European. Were the artists working with a european artist? Regards, Greg (614) 517-7204 greg at gregsandor.com http://www.gregsandor.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Edgerton" To: Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:45 AM Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows > Hi again Listeros: Here's a URL of one of Jorge's Ixmiquilpan-mural photos > showing a struggle between a "Chichimec" holding a bow and arrows, and an > Otomi warrior emerging from a flower dressed in a jaguar skin, and armed > with a maccuahuitl. > Sam Edgerton > > http://lanfiles.williams.edu/~sedgerto/IXMIQ.jpg > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > From Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu Mon Apr 16 14:59:23 2007 From: Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu (Sam Edgerton) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:59:23 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20070416155554.0278bfe0@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Hi Greg: The foliated swag motif that extends through and connects all the Ixmiquilpan paintings is sometimes referred to as the style of "tequitqui", a Nauatl word that means "laborer". The term is pejorative but has unfortunately been applied rather generally to this type of mural decoration commonly seen in nearly all the sixteenth-century conventos in Mexico. It clearly derived from European classical and Renaissance sources (actually printed bookplates) but was taught to native artisans by the friars who desired to be surrounded by familiar pictorial idioms. Nevertheless, indigenous artists became quite expert at mastering it and even introduced traditional flora and other native elements. In my THEATERS book, Chapter Six, I have extensively described and analyzed iconographically the Ixmiquilpan foliated decor in this respect. Sam Edgerton At 02:08 PM 4/16/2007 -0500, you wrote: >The foliate decoration on that mural really looks European. Were the >artists working with a european artist? >Regards, > >Greg > >(614) 517-7204 >greg at gregsandor.com >http://www.gregsandor.com >----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Edgerton" > >To: >Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:45 AM >Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows > > >>Hi again Listeros: Here's a URL of one of Jorge's Ixmiquilpan-mural photos >>showing a struggle between a "Chichimec" holding a bow and arrows, and an >>Otomi warrior emerging from a flower dressed in a jaguar skin, and armed >>with a maccuahuitl. >>Sam Edgerton >> >>http://lanfiles.williams.edu/~sedgerto/IXMIQ.jpg >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Aztlan mailing list >>Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From aztlandave at yahoo.com Mon Apr 16 15:42:12 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Huichol Bows and Arrows In-Reply-To: <003801c78028$7731d470$6401a8c0@gis> Message-ID: <324966.89322.qm@web37008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here are the links to the images Elaine Day Schele requested be posted to the list: http://www.famsi.org/aztlan/uploads/Huichol_Bow.jpg http://www.famsi.org/aztlan/uploads/Lumholtz_Arrows_Huichol.jpg --- Elaine Day Schele wrote: > Dear Listserv Administrators, > > I know that you can't send out images, but I wanted > to share these two that > I have attached, so perhaps you could create links > for them. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From deamayaspin at yahoo.com Mon Apr 16 15:55:59 2007 From: deamayaspin at yahoo.com (D. M. Urquidi) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20070416103919.024fcb18@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Message-ID: <282996.69956.qm@web57009.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Sam: It is not difficult to see that this is a convent or monastery (post conquest) art mural. Dea Sam Edgerton wrote: Hi again Listeros: Here's a URL of one of Jorge's Ixmiquilpan-mural photos showing a struggle between a "Chichimec" holding a bow and arrows, and an Otomi warrior emerging from a flower dressed in a jaguar skin, and armed with a maccuahuitl. Sam Edgerton http://lanfiles.williams.edu/~sedgerto/IXMIQ.jpg _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765 http://www.mayalords.org http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/ --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. From gilchrist.susan at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 18:30:00 2007 From: gilchrist.susan at gmail.com (Susan Gilchrist) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:30:00 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20070416155554.0278bfe0@facstaffmail.williams.edu> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070416155554.0278bfe0@facstaffmail.williams.edu> Message-ID: <3b19afc80704161630q5d779adfga56ad833e31341b9@mail.gmail.com> To expand on this a little bit, "foliated decor" has a long history in Europe, with Egyptan, classical Jewish/Christian, etc. origins, but it was also more or less a fad in the 16th century. I'm thinking of Matt Kavaler's architectural photos in recent articles in the Art Bulletin showing stone architecture with branches and leaves, and also prints from Antwerp from the second half of the 1500s, plus book title pages. In the pictures for Diego Duran's History of the Indies of New Spain, it seems as though sometimes the foliated decor starts getting too fancy, and maybe artists were advised to just draw pictures without so much decoration. Diego Valades also seems to like to add foliage to things, along with the decor called "strapwork" which is a little pejorative in European art, maybe to the same degree as "tequiqui"? It seems as though the style traveled back and forth across the Atlantic easily, almost like art nouveau. Or more recently, teenage graffiti artists' fabulous, almost totally illegible writing. --susan gilchrist On 4/16/07, Sam Edgerton wrote: > > Hi Greg: The foliated swag motif that extends through and connects all the > Ixmiquilpan paintings is sometimes referred to as the style of > "tequitqui", > a Nauatl word that means "laborer". The term is pejorative but has > unfortunately been applied rather generally to this type of mural > decoration commonly seen in nearly all the sixteenth-century conventos in > Mexico. It clearly derived from European classical and Renaissance sources > (actually printed bookplates) but was taught to native artisans by the > friars who desired to be surrounded by familiar pictorial idioms. > Nevertheless, indigenous artists became quite expert at mastering it and > even introduced traditional flora and other native elements. In my > THEATERS > book, Chapter Six, I have extensively described and analyzed > iconographically the Ixmiquilpan foliated decor in this respect. > Sam Edgerton > > > > At 02:08 PM 4/16/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > >The foliate decoration on that mural really looks European. Were the > >artists working with a european artist? > >Regards, > > > >Greg > > > >(614) 517-7204 > >greg at gregsandor.com > >http://www.gregsandor.com > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Edgerton" > > > >To: > >Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:45 AM > >Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows > > > > > >>Hi again Listeros: Here's a URL of one of Jorge's Ixmiquilpan-mural > photos > >>showing a struggle between a "Chichimec" holding a bow and arrows, and > an > >>Otomi warrior emerging from a flower dressed in a jaguar skin, and armed > >>with a maccuahuitl. > >>Sam Edgerton > >> > >>http://lanfiles.williams.edu/~sedgerto/IXMIQ.jpg > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Aztlan mailing list > >>Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > >>http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Apr 16 20:12:10 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Aztecs - Digging for History Message-ID: <2750.137.143.153.77.1176772330.squirrel@bearmail.potsdam.edu> Tonight on the History Channel the program Digging for History, features the Aztecs. The host is joined by various experts, including David Carrasco in looking at the Aztecs. Check local listings. -- John F. Schwaller President, SUNY Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 schwallr at potsdam.edu From michaelruggeri at mac.com Tue Apr 17 05:38:10 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 05:38:10 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] 24 SACRIFICED TOLTEC CHILDREN UNCOVERED Message-ID: <0630B577-4D08-4E40-B34E-06F2ED33C0C3@mac.com> Mexico finds bones suggesting Toltec child sacrifice By Monica Medel TULA, Mexico (Reuters) - The grisly find of the buried bones of 24 pre-Hispanic Mexican children may be the first evidence that the ancient Toltec civilisation sacrificed children, an archaeologist studying the remains said on Monday. The bones, dating from 950 AD to 1150 AD and dug up at the Toltecs' former capital Tula, north of present day Mexico City, indicated the children had been decapitated in a group. The way the children, aged between 5 and 15, were placed in the grave, and the fact they were buried with a figurine of Tlaloc, the God of rain, also pointed to a group sacrifice, archaeologist Luis Gamboa said. "To try and explain why there are 24 bodies grouped in the same place, well, the only way is to think that there was a human sacrifice," he said. "You can see evidence of incisions which make us think they possibly used sharp-edged instruments to decapitate them." The Toltecs were a war-like pre-Aztec civilisation known for sacrificing adult humans -- mainly prisoners of war -- to the Gods. Based in the ancient city of Tula, about 50 miles (80 km) north of Mexico City, they flourished until the late 12th century, influencing much of Mexico from the southwestern United States down to the Gulf of Mexico and Central America. Tula is best known today for its fearsome 15-foot-high (4.5 metre) stone warrior figures. The children's bones were discovered by accident at the end of March by construction workers deepening the foundations of an office building in Tula, outside the archaeological zone. "In terms of children, it can be considered one of the first discoveries (in Toltec culture)," Gamboa said, adding that the children were likely brought in from other parts of Mexico. (c) Reuters 2007. All rights reserved. Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/ index.html Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Mound Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ index.html From deamayaspin at yahoo.com Tue Apr 17 06:59:21 2007 From: deamayaspin at yahoo.com (D. M. Urquidi) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 04:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] two headed entities Message-ID: <724734.334.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Folks; Is there any relationship between Yaxchilan Stela 11, E2.jpg, H3.jpg and Stela 12 C-4, the Capstone 7 from Ek Balam dated 9.17.4.7.19, Gode D in the two headed monster of the Dresden Codex or the two headed dragon of Copan? In fact, is there any relationship between the three glyphs above and ANY double headed serpent/monter image? Dea D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765 http://www.mayalords.org http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 17 11:09:37 2007 From: birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com (jeremy smith) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Aztec-Digging for the Truth Message-ID: <183062.61584.qm@web60117.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Everybody, I watched the History Channel episode about the Aztecs that featured David Carasco and others. It was an interesting show and one of the subjects covered touched on a point Justin Kerr made about the bow and arrow discussion. There was an Ancient Mesoamerican weapons specialist in part of the show. He demonstrated some of the weapons used by the Aztecs and others. The spears thrown by the atlatl looked more like large arrows in my opinion. Like Justin and others pointed out, this may have led the Europeans to describe them as such. --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. From kat at hallofmaat.com Tue Apr 17 13:25:17 2007 From: kat at hallofmaat.com (Katherine Reece) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:25:17 -0600 Subject: [Aztlan] Aztec-Digging for the Truth References: <183062.61584.qm@web60117.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <047801c7811d$c70d70d0$6401a8c0@kat> The spears thrown by the atlatl looked more like large arrows in my opinion. Like Justin and others pointed out, this may have led the Europeans to describe them as such. The Digging for the Truth shows have been rather good, or at least better than the usual way archaeological or ancient history programs are depicted with all the mysterious music playing in the background and dodgy information given out. On the point of the Europeans calling the atlatl darts "arrows" ...they messed up the naming of things often .. in South America they called llamas "sheep" Kat Reece Owner / Head Moderator In the Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com Amun Owner / Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amun Contributing author to the book "Archaeological Fantasies: How pseudoarchaeology misrepresents the past and misleads the public" http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=97 Kat's Personal Page http://www.katherinereece.com/ From davefiona at yahoo.com Tue Apr 17 21:49:52 2007 From: davefiona at yahoo.com (David and Fiona Gray) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Maya trade routes Message-ID: <238215.89056.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi all, Was the Grivalja river ever a major trading route for the maya. Would appreciate any information that i can get. ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ From hwavila at tutopia.com Wed Apr 18 09:46:33 2007 From: hwavila at tutopia.com (Henry Avila) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:46:33 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya trade routes References: <238215.89056.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003701c781c8$648f3e60$7319a8c0@LeMansCentral> In my opinion: Trade routes where specially marked by cities, of course the mayas used to use the rivers as a way of trade, however, the main ways of trade in my opinion was those that are followed by cities, e.g., the Usumacinta river was particulary marked by cities on its contour (Palenque, Bonampak, Yaxchil?n, Piedras Negras), the La Pasion river was marked by cities on its contour as well (Altar de Sacrificios, Ceibal, Dos Pilas, Wak?-Per?, Aguateca, Cancu?n in the end). In conclusion, I think rivers like Usumacinta and La Pasion they do, were used by the mayas as a trade route, rivers like Grijalva maybe they wasnt used by the mayas as a trade route because of the missing cities on his contour. Again, that is only my opinion. Regards! ----- Original Message ----- From: "David and Fiona Gray" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:49 PM Subject: [Aztlan] Maya trade routes > Hi all, > Was the Grivalja river ever a major trading route for the maya. Would appreciate any information that i can get. > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it > now. > http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan en lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan ______________________________ Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar m?s r?pido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos. From drd30 at columbia.edu Wed Apr 18 13:30:51 2007 From: drd30 at columbia.edu (Dan) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:30:51 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya trade routes In-Reply-To: <003701c781c8$648f3e60$7319a8c0@LeMansCentral> Message-ID: Estimados Listeros, The question of trade routes on such rivers should be prefaced with, "when?" The river system we see today in a deltaic region like E. Tabasco & S. Campeche is subject to signifcant change over relatively brief periods time. And even in their present configurations, there is so much interweaving of streams that names like "Usamacinta" and "Grijalva" are more naming conventions than separate discreet waterways. (And as for cities on the Grijalva... what about Potonchan? Cimatan?) Geographer Vince Malmstrom of Dartmouth has a fascinating article on all this. "Chontalpa: No Man's Land, or Cradle of Maya Civilization?" (It's more about the waterways than the title suggests) Can't attach it here, but googling "Vince Malmstrom Chontalpa" will lead you straight to a pdf version. Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org > [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]On Behalf Of Henry Avila > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:47 AM > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Maya trade routes > > > > In my opinion: > > Trade routes where specially marked by cities, of course the mayas used to > use the rivers as a way of trade, however, the main ways of trade in my > opinion was those that are followed by cities, e.g., the Usumacinta river > was particulary marked by cities on its contour (Palenque, Bonampak, > Yaxchil?n, Piedras Negras), the La Pasion river was marked by > cities on its > contour as well (Altar de Sacrificios, Ceibal, Dos Pilas, Wak?-Per?, > Aguateca, Cancu?n in the end). > > In conclusion, I think rivers like Usumacinta and La Pasion they do, were > used by the mayas as a trade route, rivers like Grijalva maybe they wasnt > used by the mayas as a trade route because of the missing cities on his > contour. Again, that is only my opinion. > > Regards! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David and Fiona Gray" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:49 PM > Subject: [Aztlan] Maya trade routes > > > > Hi all, > > Was the Grivalja river ever a major trading route > for the maya. > Would appreciate any information that i can get. > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try > it > > now. > > http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Aztlan mailing list > > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > ______________________________ > Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar m?s r?pido en > Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos. > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > From aztlandave at yahoo.com Wed Apr 18 15:01:17 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <404089.74094.qm@web37003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> FORWARDED NOTE FROM: Michael J. Fitzpatrick FOR IMAGES, PLEASE VISIT: http://www.famsi.org/aztlan/uploads/cacaxtla-1.jpg http://www.famsi.org/aztlan/uploads/cacaxtla-2.jpg ------------------------------------- Regarding atlatl darts appearing as large arrows, I have enclosed two photos I took about two years ago of the famous battle scene mural at Cacaxtla, Tlaxcala. The first shows a victim with a feather shaft protruding from the abdomen. The second shows a warrior who appears to be holding the fletched dart in the atlatl preparing to throw it (although it also looks like the battle was at close quarters and I'm not sure how useful such a projectile weapon might be under those conditions, and a number of thrusting spears are also depicted, which would probably be more appropriate weapons). Michael J. Fitzpatrick 152 North Third St., #800 San Jose, CA 95112 (408) 288-8013 Fax (408) 995-0531 Fitzesq at earthlink.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sasisson at olemiss.edu Wed Apr 18 15:11:21 2007 From: sasisson at olemiss.edu (sasisson at olemiss.edu) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:11:21 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya trade routes Message-ID: <46267b69.58.5de1.18979@olemiss.edu> The only major Maya site that I can think of below the point where either the Usumacinta or the Grijalva break into their deltaic plain is Comalcalco which lies on the east bank of an old channel of the Grijalva. There are many smaller sites - Jonuta, Pomona - along active and abandoned channels. Ed Edward B. Sisson sasisson at olemiss.edu 662=915-7343 Department of Sociology and Anthropology University of Mississippi From aztlandave at yahoo.com Wed Apr 18 15:21:10 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Maya trade routes In-Reply-To: <003701c781c8$648f3e60$7319a8c0@LeMansCentral> Message-ID: <498717.44148.qm@web37013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Listeros, I believe I've mentioned this before on Aztlan, but a wonderful core resource for this topic is: Mesoamerican Communication Routes and Cultural Contacts. Edited by Lee and Navarrete, published by NWAF. The full text of this volume can be downloaded in PDF here: http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/NWAF&CISOPTR=15391&REC=12 -Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From SchreinerT at aol.com Wed Apr 18 15:53:17 2007 From: SchreinerT at aol.com (SchreinerT at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:53:17 EDT Subject: [Aztlan] Question about arrows and arch Message-ID: Amigos, I am surprised that the account of the use of bow and arrow by a Maya archer in Section XV of Landa's Relacion de las Cosas de Yucatan has not yet been mentioned. In addition Landa described Maya bows and arrows in detail in Section XXIX. They had offensive and defensive arms. The offensive were bows and arrows carried in their quivers, tipped with flints and very sharp fishes' teeth, which they shot with great skill and force. The bows were of a beautiful yellowish wood. marvelously strong and more straight than curved, with cords of their hemp fibers. The length of the bow is always somewhat less than that of the one who carries it. The arrows are made of reeds that grow in the lagoons, and more than five palms long, in which is fixed a piece of thin wood, very strong, in which again is fashioned the flint. Landa again mentions archery in Section XXIX. On the roads and passages the enemy [Maya] set defenses manned by archers ... Taken together it is doubtful that that what Landa described is a product of the imagination or a confusion of archery with the atlatl. Tom Schreiner ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From aztlandave at yahoo.com Wed Apr 18 16:01:47 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows In-Reply-To: <404089.74094.qm@web37003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <881348.41932.qm@web37005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Listeros, Tom just mentioned Landa's relacion regarding bows and arrows. It is my understanding that this was a relatively late introduction to Maya hunting/warfare (during the late Postclassic), which may be why others have not mentioned it yet on this list. I believe that the carnegie project members stated that the bow and arrow came in towards the end of Mayapan's dominance of NW Yucatan. If some kind soul out there could back this up with a reference (or correct my memory), I would greatly appreciate it. -Dave __________________________________________________ David R. Hixson Aztlan Moderator & Doctoral Candidate Tulane University Dept. of Anthropology __________________________________________________ "Nothing more useless than a bored archaeologist." -Douglas Adams __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Wed Apr 18 14:55:30 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nick Hopkins) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:55:30 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya trade routes In-Reply-To: <238215.89056.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <238215.89056.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't have the sources at hand, but somebody (I think it was John Clark) talked about an early (Preclassic/Early Classic) trade route from the Peten to the upper Grijalva, down the Grijalva to the Sumidero at Tuxtla, then around the western fringes of the Chiapas Highlands to the La Venta area. This route was supposedly marked by a series of E-group sites. Bear in mind that at this time very little of this territory was Mayan, the Mixe-Zoqueans dominating in the Grijalva Valley (before the Chiapanecs) and western Chiapas, and for that matter, maybe Mirador etc. in the Peten (and certainly around La Venta). I can look some of this up if necessary. Nick Hopkins On Apr 17, 2007, at 10:49 PM, David and Fiona Gray wrote: > Hi all, > Was the Grivalja river ever a major trading route for > the maya. Would appreciate any information that i can get. From ixtlil at earthlink.net Wed Apr 18 22:06:14 2007 From: ixtlil at earthlink.net (Jerry Offner) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:06:14 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows--When introduced and where one can find plenty of indigenous illustrations Message-ID: <380-2200744193614734@earthlink.net> I think this thread's original question regarding bows and arrows was: "when the inhabitants of mesoamerica and specially Guatemala started the use of the arrow...?" which led to Justin Kerr's question: "If anyone has any images of the use of the "bow and arrow" in Mesoamerica, I would be happy to know about them." The ensuing replies, with the exception of John Schwaller's and a very few others, show that Aztlan, the list, has truly become the land of the Maya. Theirs is truly the popular culture from Mesoamerica these days. The written document Anales de Cuauhtitlan, based on pictorial materials, mentions arrow sacrifice, as practiced by the female Ixcuinanme from Cuextlan (in general terms the "Huasteca") This is part of the collapse sequence of "Tollan"--in this case very likely Tula, Hidalgo. (H.B. Nicholson's impetus to understand this part of Mesoamerican history as history will continue long after his recent death). Arrow sacrifice is portrayed in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca from Puebla. This document is otherwise filled with bows and arrows in use or simply being carried. The time period portrayed by the 16th century indigenous scribes is after the Toltec collapse. Similarly, bows and arrows can be found in the Codex Xolotl, along with an assortment of several other weapons and their progression through a relatively brief period of post-Toltec time. Bows and arrows are also carried by certain people in the Codex de Xicotepec. The time period portrayed in that 16th century document begins almost certainly considerably more than 104 years before the conquest. Hunting scenes with bows and arrows from a similar time period can be found in the Mappe Quinatzin, and bows and arrows are also found in the opening scene of the Mappe Tlotzin. I am sure that others not so concentrated on Texococan affairs can point out other "Aztec" examples. John Schwaller's key observation on bows and arrows being associated with barbarism, not meant "ex cathedra" as it was unjustly criticized, is simply well known in the field. Among the ancient Greeks (e.g. the Iliad), occasional harsh feelings against cowardly archers surface--they can be slight and small men hiding behind the shields of great warriors to bring down great men (e.g. later Achilles). Yet, the god Apollo was an archer. The apparent lack of portayals of archers in Mesoamerican sculpture and relief is something I had never considered and is certainly worth contemplating. Greeks, Romans, Persians and many others in the Old World employed massed archers to great effect --the Parthian king Ordoes II's devastating defeat of Crassus, the English victory at Agincourt, etc. What says Ross Hassig on the subject of bows and arrows in Aztec Warfare? What do the Oaxacan and Mixtec pictorial afficianados have to say for their area? Way up north from Guatemala, all I can say is that indigenous scribes report that arrow sacrifice appeared before the fall of "Tollan" and that bows and arrows are key weapons in the decapitation (sometimes literally) of indigenous leadership after that time, beginning form the northern frontiers and working southward into Mesoamerica. It also appears, subject to correction, that bows and arrows remained a low prestige weapon, perhaps not much used as part of military tactics in the period just prior to the Conquest by the "Aztecs"--although this seems very odd and somehow must be wrong--it is just not a topic of my list to research. This raises some fascinating questions about apparent conservatism in Mesoamerican interstate warfare methods and the cultural, historical and economic forces behind them. Hope this helps answer the two early questions in this interesting thread. And, as always, if the Classic Maya are not recording bows and arrows in stone, perhaps the works at (most likely Nahua) El Baul and Cotzumalhuapa in Guatemala do, although again I don't recall any--a good part of these pieces are available on the FAMSI website for inspection by interested parties. . Jerry Offner ixtlil at earthlink.net From alpinebuff at yahoo.com Wed Apr 18 22:30:54 2007 From: alpinebuff at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Paris) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Az: Bows and Arrows In-Reply-To: <881348.41932.qm@web37005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <268725.66230.qm@web54103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> To back up Dave's comment, arrowheads have been found in Postclassic strata at several sites in the northern Yucatan Peninsula, including Mayapan, Lamanai, and Laguna de On (northern Belize). A graduate student at University at Albany, SUNY is currently focusing on the subject for his master's degree. Until he completes it, a good source is the following article: Simmons, Scott E. 2002. Late Postclassic-Spanish Colonial Period Stone Tool Technology in the Southern Maya Lowland Area: The View from Lamanai and Tipu, Belize. Lithic Technology. Volume 27(1): 47-72. Regards, Elizabeth Paris University at Albany, SUNY alpinebuff at yahoo.com David Hixson wrote: Listeros, Tom just mentioned Landa's relacion regarding bows and arrows. It is my understanding that this was a relatively late introduction to Maya hunting/warfare (during the late Postclassic), which may be why others have not mentioned it yet on this list. I believe that the carnegie project members stated that the bow and arrow came in towards the end of Mayapan's dominance of NW Yucatan. If some kind soul out there could back this up with a reference (or correct my memory), I would greatly appreciate it. -Dave __________________________________________________ David R. Hixson Aztlan Moderator & Doctoral Candidate Tulane University Dept. of Anthropology __________________________________________________ "Nothing more useless than a bored archaeologist." -Douglas Adams __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. From gregory_sandor at hotmail.com Wed Apr 18 23:40:01 2007 From: gregory_sandor at hotmail.com (Greg Sandor) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:40:01 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows--When introduced and where one can findplenty of indigenous illustrations References: <380-2200744193614734@earthlink.net> Message-ID: A quick thought on Aztec archers being less common and less often depicted. I haven't thought this through yet, but it seems that with the emphasis on capture in battle, a man with a maquihuitl or tepoztopilli would both be better able and more inclined to close with and capture the enemy. An archer's personality would be inclined to "stand off" and attack. Regards, Greg (614) 517-7204 greg at gregsandor.com http://www.gregsandor.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Offner" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:06 PM Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows--When introduced and where one can findplenty of indigenous illustrations >I think this thread's original question regarding bows and arrows was: > > "when the inhabitants of mesoamerica and specially Guatemala started the > use of the arrow...?" > > which led to Justin Kerr's question: > > "If anyone has any images of the use of the "bow and arrow" in > Mesoamerica, I would be happy to know about them." > > The ensuing replies, with the exception of John Schwaller's and a very few > others, show that Aztlan, the list, has truly become the land of the Maya. > Theirs is truly the popular culture from Mesoamerica these days. > > The written document Anales de Cuauhtitlan, based on pictorial materials, > mentions arrow sacrifice, as practiced by the female Ixcuinanme from > Cuextlan (in general terms the "Huasteca") This is part of the collapse > sequence of "Tollan"--in this case very likely Tula, Hidalgo. (H.B. > Nicholson's impetus to understand this part of Mesoamerican history as > history will continue long after his recent death). Arrow sacrifice is > portrayed in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca from Puebla. This document > is otherwise filled with bows and arrows in use or simply being carried. > The time period portrayed by the 16th century indigenous scribes is after > the Toltec collapse. Similarly, bows and arrows can be found in the Codex > Xolotl, along with an assortment of several other weapons and their > progression through a relatively brief period of post-Toltec time. Bows > and arrows are also carried by certain people in the Codex de Xicotepec. > The time period portrayed in that 16th century docu! > ment begins almost certainly considerably more than 104 years before the > conquest. Hunting scenes with bows and arrows from a similar time period > can be found in the Mappe Quinatzin, and bows and arrows are also found in > the opening scene of the Mappe Tlotzin. I am sure that others not so > concentrated on Texococan affairs can point out other "Aztec" examples. > > John Schwaller's key observation on bows and arrows being associated with > barbarism, not meant "ex cathedra" as it was unjustly criticized, is > simply well known in the field. Among the ancient Greeks (e.g. the > Iliad), occasional harsh feelings against cowardly archers surface--they > can be slight and small men hiding behind the shields of great warriors to > bring down great men (e.g. later Achilles). Yet, the god Apollo was an > archer. The apparent lack of portayals of archers in Mesoamerican > sculpture and relief is something I had never considered and is certainly > worth contemplating. Greeks, Romans, Persians and many others in the Old > World employed massed archers to great effect --the Parthian king Ordoes > II's devastating defeat of Crassus, the English victory at Agincourt, etc. > What says Ross Hassig on the subject of bows and arrows in Aztec Warfare? > What do the Oaxacan and Mixtec pictorial afficianados have to say for > their area? > > Way up north from Guatemala, all I can say is that indigenous scribes > report that arrow sacrifice appeared before the fall of "Tollan" and that > bows and arrows are key weapons in the decapitation (sometimes literally) > of indigenous leadership after that time, beginning form the northern > frontiers and working southward into Mesoamerica. It also appears, subject > to correction, that bows and arrows remained a low prestige weapon, > perhaps not much used as part of military tactics in the period just prior > to the Conquest by the "Aztecs"--although this seems very odd and somehow > must be wrong--it is just not a topic of my list to research. This raises > some fascinating questions about apparent conservatism in Mesoamerican > interstate warfare methods and the cultural, historical and economic > forces behind them. > > Hope this helps answer the two early questions in this interesting thread. > And, as always, if the Classic Maya are not recording bows and arrows in > stone, perhaps the works at (most likely Nahua) El Baul and Cotzumalhuapa > in Guatemala do, although again I don't recall any--a good part of these > pieces are available on the FAMSI website for inspection by interested > parties. . > > > Jerry Offner > ixtlil at earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > From ced44 at cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 19 03:01:59 2007 From: ced44 at cam.ac.uk (Caroline Dodds) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:01:59 +0100 Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows--When introduced and where one can findplenty of indigenous illustrations In-Reply-To: <380-2200744193614734@earthlink.net> References: <380-2200744193614734@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <112BA27F3B624410A65DB969F4851EE3@CarolinePC> Forgive me for coming so late to this thread, but I'm trying to finish my book (MS due the end of this month), so have been carefully trying to avoid any distractions! But, as one of those (apparently few) not from the land of the Maya, I was prompted by Jerry Offner's very interesting comments to try and bring the Central Mexican perspective to the issue of bows and arrows! Might I suggest Elizabeth Boone's excellent book, 'Stories in Red and Black: Pictorial Histories of the Aztecs and Mixtecs' (Austin: University of Texas Press, 2000) as a good place to follow up the idea of a transition from the 'savage' use of bows and arrows, to more the 'civilised' weapons of the atlatl and spear. As Jerry mentioned, this is a well-known trope in Central Mexican imagery, particularly in Aztec migration douments. Those using bows and arrows are traditionally depicted as Chichimecs in clothes of skins and often with unkempt hair whilst the settled urban 'Toltec' peoples bear the atlatl etc and are depicted in cotton dress with neatly styled hair. The distinction being made is between 'barbarous' hunter gatherers and the 'high', settled, agricultural culture of the Toltecs which was idealised by the later indigenous peoples of the Valley of Mexico. Boone has an excellent collection of the narratives (helpfully listed in the index under 'bow and arrow, to designate Chichimecs', but to give just a few examples of relevant documents for those who don't have access to the book, such transitions can be seen in Codex Xolotl, Cuauhtinchan Map, Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca, and Mapa-Tlotzin. According to Paul Kirchoff (1948), the Texcocan pictorial in particular focus on the process of acculturation, or the 'civilizing [of] the Chichimecs'. Back to the book...... Caroline ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU ced44 at cam.ac.uk From dan.parker at urgrad.rochester.edu Thu Apr 19 07:15:20 2007 From: dan.parker at urgrad.rochester.edu (Dan Parker) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:15:20 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya trade routes Message-ID: <1B2EE0E5-459A-4908-8885-9117FF06CAF2@urgrad.rochester.edu> A good book on trading routes in that area is: The Maya Chontal Indians Of Acalan- Tixchel (Hardcover) by Scholes & Roys, * Publisher: University of Oklahoma Press (1968) I returned the copy to the library, so I don't have it in front of me now, but I remember there was quite a bit of information about the Grijalva River network in the book. Regards, Dan From aztlandave at yahoo.com Thu Apr 19 07:31:34 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 05:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows--When introduced and where one can find plenty of indigenous illustrations In-Reply-To: <380-2200744193614734@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <884064.26923.qm@web37005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jerry Offner wrote: > I think this thread's original question regarding > bows and arrows was: > > "when the inhabitants of mesoamerica and specially > Guatemala started the use of the arrow...?" I would just like to emphasize that nearly all of the sources provided so far have been dated to the Postclassic or Colonial periods (including all of the chronicles, relaciones, and pictorial manuscripts). While 16th century documents (or, for that matter, those documents that may have been copied from other manuscripts dating to as early as the 11th century) may describe or depict bows and arrows, there has yet to be any mention of Classic Period or earlier use of bow and arrow technology in Mesoamerica (despite the substantial corpus of hunting, warfare, and sacrificial scenes depicted in mural and ceramic art from these earlier time periods). It is in this vein that I ask if there are those on Aztlan who could cite archaeological data rather than art-historical or ethnohistorical data to truly evaluate the introduction of the arrow (as opposed to the atlatl dart or spear). For example, a 1999 article in American Antiquity: http://www.saa.org/publications/AmAntiq/64-2/Nassaney.html This is just a question, not a criticism of recent posts. I post this query as a list member, not as a moderator. I've found this discussion most productive and fascinating. -Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From swood at uoregon.edu Thu Apr 19 11:00:06 2007 From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:00:06 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows In-Reply-To: <380-2200744193614734@earthlink.net> References: <380-2200744193614734@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1176998406.494023.alphamail@mailapps1.uoregon.edu> Listeros: If you go to the Virtual Mesoamerican Archive (http://whp.uoregon.edu/vma_preview/) and search the keyword "arrow" in the Digitized Materials database, you will find a link to the page of the Codex Mendoza (FAMSI) where there is a discussion of the baby boy's arrows. In the VMA you will also have links to couple of pages from the Codex Rios where there are arrows. There are numerous examples of people with bows and arrows in the Techialoyan pictorials from late colonial central Mexico. The interpretation is that the author/painters were trying to represent their Chichimec ancestors -- barbarians to some extent, but also probably considered valiant hunters and warriors. To see digitized versions of Techialoyans go to our Mapas Project (http://whp.uoregon.edu/mapas/wip.shtml) and enter the username aza and the password PERSIA. One (or more) examples from the central highland titulos primordiales genre also show bows and arrows, but we don't have the available on the Internet yet. This website has a photo from a pictorial manuscript that shows dona Marina with a quiver of arrows on her back: http://www.colonial-mexico.com/PueblaTlaxcala/ahuahua.html Best wishes, Stephanie Wood From deamayaspin at yahoo.com Thu Apr 19 10:28:18 2007 From: deamayaspin at yahoo.com (D. M. Urquidi) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows--When introduced and where one can find plenty of indigenous illustrations In-Reply-To: <884064.26923.qm@web37005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <231268.38803.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> David One of the reasons for the lack of such weapons before the Classic period is that the foreigners came first during Pacal's time or thereafter. Temple XIX at Palenque definitely shows moustached persons with false noses asking for help. . . . the glyphs do mention a storm (at sea?) when they probably wrecked on the coast. Dea > While 16th century documents (or, for that matter, > those documents that may have been copied from other > manuscripts dating to as early as the 11th century) > may describe or depict bows and arrows, there has > yet > to be any mention of Classic Period or earlier use > of > bow and arrow technology in Mesoamerica (despite the > substantial corpus of hunting, warfare, and > sacrificial scenes depicted in mural and ceramic art > from these earlier time periods). > > It is in this vein that I ask if there are those on > Aztlan who could cite archaeological data rather > than > art-historical or ethnohistorical data to truly > evaluate the introduction of the arrow (as opposed > to > the atlatl dart or spear). > > For example, a 1999 article in American Antiquity: > > http://www.saa.org/publications/AmAntiq/64-2/Nassaney.html > > This is just a question, not a criticism of recent > posts. I post this query as a list member, not as a > moderator. I've found this discussion most > productive > and fascinating. > > -Dave > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765 http://www.mayalords.org http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From szoraster at szoraster.com Thu Apr 19 10:09:37 2007 From: szoraster at szoraster.com (Steven Zoraster) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:09:37 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows--When introduced and where one can find plenty of indigenous illustrations In-Reply-To: <884064.26923.qm@web37005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200741910937.471946@SZORASTER> If the cotton armor used by the Aztecs and Maya was arrow-proof, that would reduce the incentive to switch from atlatl and dart to bow and arrow. Possibly cotton armor was arrow-proof, but not completely dart-proof? Quoting from one web page, http://tinyurl.com/26g8ue : "Its hitting power is like a rifle bullet (dart) when compared to a pistol bullet (arrow)." Steven Zoraster From michaelruggeri at mac.com Thu Apr 19 16:57:26 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:57:26 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] INTERESTING ANCIENT ANDEAN METALLURGY FINDS Message-ID: Charles Q. Choi Special to LiveScience SPACE.com Thu Apr 19, 9:50 AM ET Metals found in lake mud in the central Peruvian Andes have revealed the first evidence for pre-Colonial metalsmithing there. These findings illustrate a way that archaeologists can recreate the past even when looters have destroyed the valuable artifacts that would ordinarily be relied upon to reveal historical secrets. For instance, the new research hints at a tax imposed on local villages by ancient Inca rulers to force a switch from production of copper to silver. Pre-Colonial bronze artifacts have previously been found in the central Peruvian Andes dating back to about 1000 AD, after the fall of the Wari or Huari civilization , the largest empire in the Andes before the Incas . However, it has been unclear how metallurgy had developed there, or whether or not these artifacts even came from the Andes, instead perhaps coming from trading with coastal villages. "There's a lot you can't tell about history from the metal artifacts here because there's been a lot of looting, during both modern times and when the Spanish first arrived to melt down what silver and other metals were there to send back to the Spanish crown," said researcher Colin Cooke, an environmental scientist at the University of Alberta in Canada. Curious emergence of metallurgy To recreate a millennium of metallurgical history, the scientists measured the concentrations of copper, lead, zinc, antimony, bismuth, silver and titanium in sediments from Laguna Pirhuacocha , a lake in the mining region of Morococha in Peru that metal pollutants from furnace smoke contaminated. Collecting these samples over two summers in the extremely high, remote Andes was physically challenging, Cooke recalled, "with the occasional blown tire and truck getting stuck for a day." The metals that Cooke, University of Pittsburgh environmental scientist Mark Abbott and their colleagues focused on are each linked with certain metallurgical practices. For instance, a large rise in zinc and copper levels relative to lead concentrations suggest copper smelting, while increases in lead, antimony and bismuth hint at silver metallurgy. They used carbon dating and lead isotope dating to figure out when the metals inside mud samples from the bottom of the lake were deposited. The scientists found the earliest evidence for metallurgy dated back to between 1000 and 1200 AD, after the fall of the Wari but well before the rise of the Inca. Metallurgy then seemed aimed toward copper and copper alloys. "It's very curious. You normally associate metals and technological development with large states and empires," Cooke told LiveScience. "It's rather strange that the onset of metallurgy occurred just as the Wari Empire disappeared from the scene." Transition to silver The Wari collapsed at the same time as the Tiwanaku, another empire in the Andes, both due possibly to a massive drought that, among other things, dropped Lake Titicaca by 20 feet. "Ideas and technology concerning metallurgy might have spread after these collapses, but it's still a mystery of where metallurgy came from here," Cooke said. After 1450 AD, the villages switched from copper to silver, according to findings to be detailed in the May 15 issue of the journal Environmental Science & Technology. The researchers noted this coincided with Inca control, when rulers imposed a tax, payable in silver. The precious metal had ceremonial status among the Inca. "We're hoping to really help reconstruct the history of metallurgy in the New World," Cooke said. They have so far collected samples from some 30 other sites throughout the Andes that await further analysis, he added. Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/ index.html Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Mound Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ index.html From michaelruggeri at mac.com Thu Apr 19 17:06:50 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:06:50 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] INVESTIGATION OF MAYA SITE OF RASTROJON IN HONDURAS BEGINS Message-ID: <55E58A44-66B4-4210-8E93-30487BB40D7B@mac.com> Archaeological bookends in Cop?n Valley Archaeological team en route to Yaxchilan By Alvin Powell Harvard News Office COP?N RUINAS, Honduras - A short drive from the main Maya ruins at Cop?n, a forested hillside holds a cluster of mounds that Peabody Museum archaeologists believe date from near the end of the great Maya civilization that once dominated the region. On Tuesday (April 17), Peabody Museum director and Bowditch Professor of Central American and Mexican Archaeology and Ethnology William Fash, along with director of the Corpus of Maya Hieroglyphic Inscriptions Program Barbara Fash and two Harvard graduate students, walked the site with Honduran government officials charged with regulating and overseeing archaeological activity in the Central American nation. The site, called Rastroj?n, provides a "before" look at an archaeological site, a bookend in time to compare with the simultaneously soaring and crumbling remains a short distance away in what was once the city center. At the main ruins, a draw for tourists from around the world, generations of archaeologists have toiled, tunneling beneath the pyramid-like main acropolis, reconstructing tumbled stonework, and piecing together sculpture that once adorned the buildings and the carved stone pillars called stelae. Though much work remains to be done there, their toil has already paid off. Tourists walk leisurely among the splendor of the main ruins ? adeptly climbing stone steps that were little more than a mound of earth with trees growing out of the top when Barbara Fash first saw the site in 1977. Now, Fash was taking time out of her preparations for the Peabody's trip to Yaxchilan in Chiapas, Mexico, to walk two visitors through the main ruins and the associated sculpture museum. William and Barbara Fash arrived in Cop?n on Monday (April 16), a day ahead of other members of their team, which is assembling to test digital scanning technology on the Maya inscriptions in Yaxchilan. The archaeological team hopes the scanners will create digital files holding three-dimensional reproductions of the Maya inscriptions there. Those files could be used to "print out" - on special three- dimensional printers - 3-D copies of the inscriptions and carvings, which are fading with time, vandalism, and weather. If successful, the technology would be employed at other Maya sites, including Cop?n's impressive hieroglyphic stairway. The inscriptions hold critical information about the Maya civilization, but they are fading even as scholars are still deciphering the written language. Some of the carvings are being preserved in the Cop?n Sculpture Museum, constructed with the cooperation of Honduran authorities, including the support of then-President Rafael Leonardo Callejas. The blue and white sculpture museum sits a short distance from the main ruins and mirrors their pyramid-like aspect, sitting large, square, and imposing on an elevated mound with an angled roof. Visitors enter through a long sinuous tunnel and emerge into a single, enormous two- story room, dominated by a reproduction of the tomb of Cop?n's founder, which was discovered buried under a larger monument on the main site. Painted brilliant red, white, yellow, and green, the tomb provides a visual reminder of the colors that archaeologists believe once adorned the ruins themselves. This museum is more than just another tourist destination in the valley, however. Sheltered and displayed along its inside walls are many of the most spectacular and significant carvings from the main ruins themselves. When deemed necessary, such as in the case of Altar Q, adorned with images of Cop?n's rulers, a reproduction was placed at the main ruins so the original could be brought inside the museum, protected from the tropical rain and sun. (A copy of Altar Q is also on display at Harvard's Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology.) Across the valley lies Rastroj?n, much smaller than the main ruins but bearing the same untouched mounds that once adorned the larger site. Rastroj?n has its own breathtaking quality: a panoramic view of the valley. Reached by a 10-minute hike up a dirt road, a crawl through a barbed wire fence, and a short hike on a narrow forest path, the site is perched on a steep hillside scattered with large square stones. But even after a week's worth of underbrush clearing by a crew of local workers directed by Harvard graduate students Dylan Clark and Molly Fierer-Donaldson, to the untrained eye the Rastroj?n site seems maddeningly enigmatic. The half-dozen or so mounds appear to be the site of buildings, but little seems understandable beyond that. To the trained eye, however, there are clues to be found. William Fash leads the tour, walking the site with Dario Euraque, director of the Honduran Institute of Archaeology and History, and Eva Martinez, the institute's head of archaeology. A stone with a diagonal edge at the top of one mound, from Fash's trained vantage, indicates a possible vaulted roof, a likely site of a ceremonial building that may have held sculptures. A mound away, Clark, who with Fierer-Donaldson will supervise the initial digging at the site, spoke about his excitement at the prospect of finding a residential building. As interesting as the elaborate ceremonial carvings of the Maya are, it's also essential to Clark to understand how people lived in the valley. "This mound I'm really excited about, because it's probably residential. We can see how people were living," Clark said. While the larger team from the Peabody heads tomorrow (April 18) to Yaxchilan to test out the digital scanning equipment, Clark and Fierer-Donaldson will stay behind, getting a start by digging test pits at different points at Rastroj?n. The pits, approved by Euraque on Tuesday, will be dug near, but not on the mounds themselves. They should give archaeologists a better sense of what they'll encounter in the building, uncovering outer structures and debris that fell from the building. Rastroj?n provided a rare treat for Euraque as well as Clark. After hiking back down the hill, Euraque said he's used to being called to sites when there are problems and visiting existing archaeological sites that have been in operation for years. However, he rarely gets to see a site before work begins. And just as rarely does he get to talk to the head archaeologist about what's needed there. Euraque said the collaboration the government of Honduras has with foreign archaeologists, including those from Harvard, is important, but he added that too often Hondurans are trained as technicians and not as archaeologists who provide the necessary interpretative guidance on a site. He's trying to remedy that, pushing to get a school of archaeology started so Honduran students interested in that field don't have to study at foreign universities. "We work to encourage Harvard and other archaeologists and to build our own efforts," Euraque said. Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/ index.html Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Mound Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ index.html From price at hughes.net Thu Apr 19 17:26:32 2007 From: price at hughes.net (Prudence M. Rice) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:26:32 -0600 Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows (Maya) Message-ID: <4627EC98.5090109@hughes.net> Listeros - I have been surprised that Kazuo Aoyama's recent publications have not been cited in this thread. Dr. Aoyama has found small projectile points made on obsidian prismatic blades in the Classic period at both Copan and Aguateca. These points are ca 3 cm or less, and proportionally they are within the dimensions of arrow points (as opposed to dart points [longstanding debate]; see article in American Antiquity by David Hurst Thomas ca. 1979). The relevant publications by Dr. Aoyama can be found in Latin American Antiquity vol 18, no 1 (2007), see fig 4.10; and in Ancient Mesoamerica vol 16, no 2 (2005). Small (i.e., arrow-sized) points also have been found in Terminal Classic contexts at Macanche Island and Seibal. At Colha, they have been dated to the early facet of the Early Postclassic (ca 900-1050). Hope this information is useful to some of you - Pru Rice From michaelruggeri at mac.com Thu Apr 19 17:38:20 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:38:20 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Classic arrow heads at Copan? Message-ID: <4E6A2043-4BE1-4B61-A7EE-496530634F97@mac.com> Pru Rice, These points could fit into a narrower atlatl. Perhaps they are arrow points but I would think you would need some supporting evidence such as shafts or supporting art at these sites. It is a plausible conjecture but missing that final element of proof I would think, don't you? Mike Ruggeri Listeros - I have been surprised that Kazuo Aoyama's recent publications have not been cited in this thread. Dr. Aoyama has found small projectile points made on obsidian prismatic blades in the Classic period at both Copan and Aguateca. These points are ca 3 cm or less, and proportionally they are within the dimensions of arrow points (as opposed to dart points [longstanding debate]; see article in American Antiquity by David Hurst Thomas ca. 1979). The relevant publications by Dr. Aoyama can be found in Latin American Antiquity vol 18, no 1 (2007), see fig 4.10; and in Ancient Mesoamerica vol 16, no 2 (2005). Small (i.e., arrow-sized) points also have been found in Terminal Classic contexts at Macanche Island and Seibal. At Colha, they have been dated to the early facet of the Early Postclassic (ca 900-1050). Hope this information is useful to some of you - Pru Rice From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Thu Apr 19 19:28:09 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nick Hopkins) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:28:09 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows In-Reply-To: <4627EC98.5090109@hughes.net> References: <4627EC98.5090109@hughes.net> Message-ID: <411046A1-2456-4ECF-8B1B-9FE11F6CFBD1@mailer.fsu.edu> This is not relevant to the search for Precolumbian bows and arrows, but I remember seeing somewhere, in an earlier source (1940s? Carnegie? Smithsonian? Tribes and Temples?) how the Chols and people in northern Chiapas/Tabasco had relearned how to use bows and arrows after they were prohibited from having guns. Note also that the Lacandons make bows and arrows, altho in living memory they have only used them as tourist goods. In recent years they reduced them to the length that will fit in an overhead bin, altho I don't think you could carry them on these days! (Anyway, there is a nice dissertation for somebody!). Nick Hopkins From eschele at austin.rr.com Thu Apr 19 20:16:37 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:16:37 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Prof. Receives Prestigious Science Fellowships Message-ID: <001a01c782e9$8b9fb940$6401a8c0@gis> FYI Geography Prof. Receives Prestigious Science Fellowships Georgetown University Associate Professor of Geography and Geoscience Timothy Beach recently received a prestigious 2007 Guggenheim Fellowship Award for his scholarly work related to the environmental history of the Maya lowlands. He was also named a 2007-2008 Harvard Dumbarton Oaks Fellowship for research with their Pre-Columbian program. Beach's research focuses on soils, erosion, agriculture, environmental change and geoarchaeology in Central America, Turkey and the United States. In particular, he focuses on human impacts on the environment and the development of conservation in ancient and modern times. "I am pleased to congratulate Tim on receiving these prestigious fellowships," said Robert L. Gallucci, dean of the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service. "His research on the relationship between ancient Maya civilization and their environment contributes significantly to our understanding of important conservation issues." Guggenheim Fellows are appointed on the basis of distinguished achievement in the past and exceptional promise for future accomplishment. The 2007 Guggenheim Fellowship winners include 189 artists, scholars and scientists selected from 2,800 applicants for awards totaling $7,600,000. The new Fellows include writers, playwrights, painters, sculptors, photographers, film makers, choreographers, physical and biological scientists, social scientists and scholars in the humanities. Many hold appointments in colleges or universities with 77 institutions being represented by one or more Fellows. Since 1925, the Foundation has granted over $256 million in Fellowships to more than 16,250 individuals. Beach is Georgetown's 25th Guggenheim Fellow. Beach was also named a Fellow in the Pre-Columbian Program at Dumbarton Oaks, founded in 1963 to support the study of the art and archaeology of the ancient Americas. The activities of the Pre-Columbian Program include residential fellowships, grants for field research, scholarly meetings, publications, and activities with the Robert Woods Bliss Collection of Pre-Columbian Art and the Dumbarton Oaks Research Library. The Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection is an international center for scholarship, providing resources for study and publishing scholarly works in Byzantine, Pre-Columbian, and Garden and Landscape Studies. Begun as a private collection by Mildred and Robert Woods Bliss in 1920, and given to Harvard University in 1940, the library and collections include art objects, artifacts, manuscripts, and rare books. Timothy Beach was the director of Georgetown University's Center for the Environment from 1999 to 2007 and is associate professor of Geography and Geoscience in the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service's Program in Science, Technology & International Affairs (STIA). His research focuses on soils, agriculture, environmental change, and geoarchaeology, and he was elected Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Fall 2006 for "major research contributions that improved understanding of the linkages among ancient agriculture, environmental change, and soil-geomorphic processes in Mesoamerica." He has conducted field research in the Corn Belt of the United States, Mexico's Yucat?n, Belize, Guatemala, Syria, Turkey, and Germany. Based on these field studies, he has published forty articles and chapters, eighty national presentations with abstracts, and is working on a book on environmental archaeology in the Pet?n, Guatemala. He has also lectured extensively, presenting research findings about soils, ancient agriculture, environmental change, and geoarchaeology of Mesoamerica, Turkey, and the Midwestern U.S. He teaches courses in physical geography (climatology, hydrology, geomorphology, and environmental management) and how these relate to international management and policy in the STIA and environmental studies programs. From mayavase at verizon.net Thu Apr 19 21:26:33 2007 From: mayavase at verizon.net (Justin Kerr) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 22:26:33 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Classic arrow heads at Copan? In-Reply-To: <4E6A2043-4BE1-4B61-A7EE-496530634F97@mac.com> Message-ID: <002701c782f3$515c8470$6701a8c0@justnew> Dear all, There seems to be somewhat of a difference in the size of the point that is depicted on late classic vases. K1116 shows a rather large point on a thrusting spear. K1373 shows very small points on a'tlatl darts. K5857 (my favorite) shows long thin points also on a'tlatl darts while K2785 shows a rounded style of point. However, these are artist's conceptions and should they be taken literally? Although only pellets are shown exiting blowguns, it generally involves scenes of bird hunting. However, on vase K808, we see blowguns involved in a deer hunt. Is it possible that very small points could be used attached to blowgun darts? Justin Kerr -----Original Message----- From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of michael ruggeri Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 6:38 PM To: Aztlan Subject: [Aztlan] Classic arrow heads at Copan? Pru Rice, These points could fit into a narrower atlatl. Perhaps they are arrow points but I would think you would need some supporting evidence such as shafts or supporting art at these sites. It is a plausible conjecture but missing that final element of proof I would think, don't you? Mike Ruggeri Listeros - I have been surprised that Kazuo Aoyama's recent publications have not been cited in this thread. Dr. Aoyama has found small projectile points made on obsidian prismatic blades in the Classic period at both Copan and Aguateca. These points are ca 3 cm or less, and proportionally they are within the dimensions of arrow points (as opposed to dart points [longstanding debate]; see article in American Antiquity by David Hurst Thomas ca. 1979). The relevant publications by Dr. Aoyama can be found in Latin American Antiquity vol 18, no 1 (2007), see fig 4.10; and in Ancient Mesoamerica vol 16, no 2 (2005). Small (i.e., arrow-sized) points also have been found in Terminal Classic contexts at Macanche Island and Seibal. At Colha, they have been dated to the early facet of the Early Postclassic (ca 900-1050). Hope this information is useful to some of you - Pru Rice _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From yaxalbalam at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 20:34:24 2007 From: yaxalbalam at gmail.com (Yax Balam) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:34:24 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Posting comments on new Maya glyph blog Message-ID: Dear Listeros, As Elaine noted in a post last week, David Stuart has created a weblog that is intended to serve as an outlet for epigraphic research. Everyone is welcome to post comments and questions. However, to do so, you have to sign up for a free account with the webhost, wordpress. To do that, please click on the first hyperlink below. The second hyperlink leads directly to Dave's blog. Cheers, Penny http://wordpress.com/signup/ http://decipherment.wordpress.com/ From aztlandave at yahoo.com Fri Apr 20 06:24:29 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Re-Release of "La Otra Conquista" / The Other Conquest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <902235.87560.qm@web37007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> FORWARDED MESSAGE FROM THE PRODUCTION TEAM OF "LA OTRA CONQUISTA": ------------------------------ Hello, On May 4 "The Other Conquest (La Otra Conquista)," the powerful film by Salvador Carrasco about the Spanish conquest of Mexico will be released in select cities! This masterpiece of world cinema has captivated audiences everywhere and now American moviegoers will get to experience this moving, unforgettable movie about a clash of cultures. For More Information visit www.theotherconquest.com or www.myspace.com/theotherconquest MESSAGE FROM SALVADOR CARRASCO: "The Other Conquest" tells the story of the Aztecs? spiritual and psychological resistance to the 1521 Spanish conquest of Mexico. The film explores the ways in which people on the receiving end of conquests, invasions, colonization, or certain kinds of "liberation", struggle to preserve their identity and beliefs in spite of military defeat. Their other conquest is a spiritual one, often attained at great personal sacrifice. The story depicted in this film is not just about Aztecs and Spaniards; it has been repeating itself throughout history, even to this day, in different shades and forms. Salvador Carrasco Writer/Director, ?The Other Conquest? Santa Monica, California April 14, 2007 Reflexion del Director ?La Otra Conquista? cuenta la historia de la resistencia espiritual y sicologica de los aztecas ante los efectos de la conquista espanola de Mexico. La pel?cula explora las diferentes formas en que una civilizacion que ha sufrido una invasion, colonizacion, o cierto tipo de ?liberacion?, lucha por preservar su identidad y creencias a pesar de la derrota militar. El gran reto de estos pueblos, su otra conquista, es la integridad espiritual, que a menudo conlleva un enorme sacrificio personal. Este conflicto se ha venido repitiendo en diversas formas a traves de la historia, incluso hoy en d?a, de ahi la relevancia actual de esta pelicula. Salvador Carrasco Guionista/Director, ?La Otra Conquista? Santa Monica, California 14 de abril del 2007 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aztlandave at yahoo.com Fri Apr 20 07:49:17 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 05:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows (Maya) In-Reply-To: <4627EC98.5090109@hughes.net> Message-ID: <651294.25387.qm@web37011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> FORWARDED NOTE FROM BRADLEY RUSSELL (Brad's original email seems to have "gotten lost" sorry if this double-posts) --------------------------------------------- The first I know of the bow and arrow is in the Aztec codices talking about the migration of Nauhautl speakers into central Mexico. I think it may have come in with them at that point although the archaeology would say better. In the Maya area the Bow and arrow is also very late. At Mayapan, it was brought in by Mexicanized mercenaries that were employeed by some of the site's later leaders (based on Landa's descriptions). They came in with other Central Mexican gear like cotton armor. According to Landa this was a new technology that gave the mercenaries great power for a while. After some time, the people that were being bullied by the mercs learned the technology and evened the playing field. Landa says that at this time the people lost their fear of the mercs. We find lots of arrow points in later strata, dating after 1250ish. Most are obsidian and made from prismatic blades. There are a few chalcedony examples from our work as well. Prior to that what we find are large lance points in the area. There are many large cacti around Mayapan today that are lacking in the surrounding area. It has been suggested that these were intentionally planted in the site to serve as a source of arrow shafts. When they die and dry out, each arm contains a large number of very straight and durable shafts. Hope that helps. Brad __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ctbrown at fau.edu Fri Apr 20 07:55:57 2007 From: ctbrown at fau.edu (Clifford T. Brown) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:55:57 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows (Maya) In-Reply-To: <651294.25387.qm@web37011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4627EC98.5090109@hughes.net> <651294.25387.qm@web37011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01f101c7834b$40538630$515e5b83@irm.ad.fau.edu> The cacti are Cereus yucatanensis (k'ulub in Yucatec). I believe the story of the Aztec mercenaries bringing the bow and arrow to Mayapan is also told in the Relaciones geograficas. Clifford T. Brown, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology Florida Atlantic University 777 Glades Road Boca Raton, Florida 33431 (561) 297-3232 ctbrown at fau.edu http://www.fau.edu/~ctbrown -----Original Message----- From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of David Hixson Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:49 AM To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows (Maya) FORWARDED NOTE FROM BRADLEY RUSSELL (Brad's original email seems to have "gotten lost" sorry if this double-posts) --------------------------------------------- The first I know of the bow and arrow is in the Aztec codices talking about the migration of Nauhautl speakers into central Mexico. I think it may have come in with them at that point although the archaeology would say better. In the Maya area the Bow and arrow is also very late. At Mayapan, it was brought in by Mexicanized mercenaries that were employeed by some of the site's later leaders (based on Landa's descriptions). They came in with other Central Mexican gear like cotton armor. According to Landa this was a new technology that gave the mercenaries great power for a while. After some time, the people that were being bullied by the mercs learned the technology and evened the playing field. Landa says that at this time the people lost their fear of the mercs. We find lots of arrow points in later strata, dating after 1250ish. Most are obsidian and made from prismatic blades. There are a few chalcedony examples from our work as well. Prior to that what we find are large lance points in the area. There are many large cacti around Mayapan today that are lacking in the surrounding area. It has been suggested that these were intentionally planted in the site to serve as a source of arrow shafts. When they die and dry out, each arm contains a large number of very straight and durable shafts. Hope that helps. Brad __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From aztlandave at yahoo.com Fri Apr 20 08:26:09 2007 From: aztlandave at yahoo.com (David Hixson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 06:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Bows and Arrows (Maya) In-Reply-To: <01f101c7834b$40538630$515e5b83@irm.ad.fau.edu> Message-ID: <593593.48110.qm@web37004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> FORWARDED IMAGES OF POSTCLASSIC ARROWHEADS FROM MAYAPAN, PROVIDED BY CLIFF BROWN (To accompany the comments made by Cliff Brown and Bradley Russell) ----------------------------- http://www.famsi.org/aztlan/uploads/Mayapan-Arrowhead-50-31b.JPG http://www.famsi.org/aztlan/uploads/Mayapan-Arrowhead-418-2a.JPG http://www.famsi.org/aztlan/uploads/Mayapan-Arrowhead-438-1c.JPG ----------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eschele at austin.rr.com Fri Apr 20 09:22:37 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:22:37 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Game Hunting Message-ID: <001801c78357$58dde900$6401a8c0@gis> Dear Friends, Another question -- As I understand it, during very early intensive hunter/gathering periods of civilization, the bow and arrow was invented so that the hunter could kill the bigger game at a distance, such as the deer and still deliver the wallop needed. The game would most likely run away if a human approached very close, trying to spear it or stab it. Was the a'-tlatl used for hunting game as well as for war? If not, what did they use? Elaine From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Fri Apr 20 09:42:37 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nick Hopkins) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:42:37 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Game Hunting In-Reply-To: <001801c78357$58dde900$6401a8c0@gis> References: <001801c78357$58dde900$6401a8c0@gis> Message-ID: <863EF4BA-44F9-4055-A9FA-477F8D41EF5F@mailer.fsu.edu> From the last postings by Justin and Elaine, I think there has been a misunderstanding about the spelling of "atlatl." There is no glottal stop (') in atlatl, i.e., it is not a'tlatl. Someone usefully posted a note on the pronunciation of the word as a'-tlatl, with the accent mark used to show the stress is on the first syllable, as you would see the entry in a dictionary. This seems to have been mistaken for an intended glottal stop. The writer's point was that the word is not pronounced in the two syllables atl-atl, but in the two syllables a-tlatl. Well, of course, that's fine for Nahuatl (and Spanish, for that matter), but the English word that has been borrowed from the Nahuatl IS usually pronounced atl-atl, with voiced Ls rather than the Nahuatl voiceless lateral affricate. For what it's worth... (and correct me if I'm wrong--my Nahuatl is marginal). Nick Hopkins On Apr 20, 2007, at 10:22 AM, Elaine Day Schele wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Another question -- As I understand it, during very early intensive > hunter/gathering periods of civilization, the bow and arrow was > invented so that the hunter could kill the bigger game at a > distance, such as the deer and still deliver the wallop needed. > The game would most likely run away if a human approached very > close, trying to spear it or stab it. Was the a'-tlatl used for > hunting game as well as for war? If not, what did they use? > > Elaine > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From mayavase at verizon.net Fri Apr 20 09:46:50 2007 From: mayavase at verizon.net (Justin Kerr) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:46:50 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Game Hunting In-Reply-To: <001801c78357$58dde900$6401a8c0@gis> Message-ID: <003101c7835a$bbe41210$6701a8c0@justnew> Dear Elaine, On vase K808 the deer hunters were using blowguns. On vase K5857, the hunter is using an a'tlatl and on vase K6070, covered with a jaguar skin, the hunter crawls on his knees with his a'tlatl held between his teeth until he can get close enough to his prey so he can use his weapon. Admittedly, the time period these vases come from may not be as early as the formation of hunter/gatherer societies. Justin -----Original Message----- From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Elaine Day Schele Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:23 AM To: Aztlan Subject: [Aztlan] Game Hunting Dear Friends, Another question -- As I understand it, during very early intensive hunter/gathering periods of civilization, the bow and arrow was invented so that the hunter could kill the bigger game at a distance, such as the deer and still deliver the wallop needed. The game would most likely run away if a human approached very close, trying to spear it or stab it. Was the a'-tlatl used for hunting game as well as for war? If not, what did they use? Elaine _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Fri Apr 20 11:31:47 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nick Hopkins) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:31:47 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] a'tlatl Message-ID: <3D3B7BF3-AFB7-4A16-8030-A4CC4F4A78D4@mailer.fsu.edu> OK, I stand corrected (by Terry Kaufman). The Nahuatl form does indeed have a glottal stop right there where I dissed that pesky apostrophe. I told y'all my Nahuatl wasn't that good! Nick Hopkins From Ronald.L.Canter at faa.gov Fri Apr 20 13:09:38 2007 From: Ronald.L.Canter at faa.gov (Ronald.L.Canter at faa.gov) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:09:38 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Reply to Aztlan Digest, Vol 17, Issue 17. Grijalva Navigability, More Bows&Arrows Message-ID: Reply to Aztlan Digest, Vol 17, Issue 17. Grijalva Navigability On the Grijalva, the response from Dan touches on a key point - the river's course has changed over time. Sites at Tierra Nueva, Cimatan and Comalcalco fit a route down the river and a former distributary, now called the Rio Seco. This would have been a direct waterway from the Mal Paso Basin to the Gulf. Farther upriver, there is Malpasito, a Postclassic Zoquean site where the river leaves the mountains below the Raudales de Malpasito (rapids where the Netzahuatlcoyotl Dam is now). Joel Skidmore pointed out several articles, one in American Antiquity, Vol 32, #1, 1967, which described the San Isidro and San Antonio sites, two of 100 sites now drowned by the dam. San Isidro was a major Preclassic to Late Classic site. In connection with this thread, another article "Mound 4 Excavations at San Isidro", Lee 1974, identified it as "at the head of canoe navigation on the Grijalva River and in a principal cacao-producing zone". The details of where any portages might have been, secondary ports, and such in the Mal Paso Basin are lost forever. More Bows&Arrows On Bows & Arrows, John Thompson, a friend of mine with an interest in Native American weaponry, passed on a tidbit. "The earliest bow yet discovered in North America was found at the early Caddo Mounds Plantation Site, in Caddo Parish, Louisiana. Its estimated date of manufacture is 1050 to 1070 AD. Based on this date, the Maya and residents of the Valley of Mexico may have been exposed to the bow and arrow as early as 1000-1100 AD." This fits what seems to be the consensus so far, that the bow was late-comer to Mesoamerica. Ron Canter From swood at uoregon.edu Fri Apr 20 15:12:27 2007 From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:12:27 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Maya glyph decipherment Message-ID: Hello epigraphers / Hola epigrafas/os: We have made a digital version (with magnification of each glyph and other details) of a rubbing of Panel 12 at Piedras Negras made by Joan W. Patten many years ago. We are looking for a volunteer epigrapher to provide us with any kind of translation or even just comments about any of the elements. The volunteer will be given full credit for his or her contributions. Here is the URL: http://whp.uoregon.edu/DigitalCahuleu/Galleries/ Andrews/PattenRubbing/index.html One could send translation or commentary attached to each URL. For example: The glyph on this page means ...(such-and-such). Or, the group of figures on this page represents ..... And we will publish your contributions with attribution to you. This can be sent in English or Spanish. (Nos gustaria recibir traducciones o comentarios en espanol, Maya, o cualquier otro idioma.) Thank you so much for considering this! Stephanie Stephanie Wood, Ph.D., Associate Director and Senior Research Associate, Wired Humanities Project 1201 University of Oregon Eugene, Oregon 97403-1201 U.S.A. Tel. 541-346-5771 swood at uoregon.edu From birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 20 17:24:21 2007 From: birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com (jeremy smith) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] two headed entities Message-ID: <199903.41249.qm@web60114.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Everybody, In reference to D. M. Urquidi, though it is not a glyph referencing such a creature, there is a creature that inhabits the Maya Underworld that could spawn such a glyph. E. Wyllys Andrews IV (1965, p. 4) writes in "Balankanche, Throne of the Tiger Priest," a book about the exploration of the caves 4 km. west of Chichen Itza, describes George Stuart's adventures: "Another cave denizen which added more than a little excitement to our life was a very large myriapod, which seemed in the darkness to have two heads, an appearance exaggerated by its motion when cornered: it rushed forwards or backwards at frightening speed, attacking any objects which seemed to threaten it and leaving a sprinkling of venemous-looking clear liquid where it tried to bite. We and the Indian workers were terrified by its awesome appearance and aggressive habits. They called it u-dzudz-mitlan ("the kiss of hell") in Maya, and said that it spouted venom from fangs at both ends as well as from its myriad punctuate feet--either and all probably deadly." They did catch the creature and found out from responsible biologists that it was a species of scolopendra. --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. From birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 21 01:05:17 2007 From: birdjaguar7 at yahoo.com (jeremy smith) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Toronto Star - Skullduggery Message-ID: <672761.82655.qm@web60121.mail.yahoo.com> Anna Mitchell-Hedges passed away April 11, 2007 SKULLDUGGERY? The Toronto Star - Skull for scandal Temples, human sacrifices and a mysterious crystal skull draw visitors to Nim Li Punit, Lubaantun Mar 29, 2007 04:30 AM by Robert Crew LUBAANTUN, BELIZE-It's a nondescript area of the Mayan ruins here, the original entrance to what is now known as Lubaantun, or "place of falling stones." But it's the site of an enduring modern mystery. Mayan guide Nathaniel Mas gestures beyond a stone altar towards to a grassy corner. "The crystal skull was found there," he says, casually. And thereby hangs a tale. The mystical skull was supposedly discovered on New Year's Day of 1924, by Anna Mitchell-Hedges, an orphan from Port Colborne, Ont. Anna had been adopted by British adventurer and story-spinner Frederick Mitchell-Hedges, who was excavating the Lubaantun ruins, looking for clues about the lost city of Atlantis. Remarkably, it just happened to be Anna's 17th birthday. She had spotted something shining deep inside a chamber of the ruins and was lowered by ropes to investigate. What she found was a wondrous piece of quartz crystal carved in the shape of a skull. The detachable crystal jawbone was found later. Now aged 100, Anna Mitchell-Hedges still has the skull, though it is mostly kept locked away in a bank vault. Anna moved away from her Kitchener home more than a decade ago and now stays with friends in the United States. "She's in good health," Bill Homann, one of those friends, told the Star in a recent telephone interview. "She has some aches and pains but we all have that." There's still intense interest in the skull, Homann says - he and Mitchell-Hedges are planning to give a couple of lectures on it in New York and Arizona later this year. But controversy continues to swirl around the skull and the story of its discovery, particularly after it was revealed that Frederick Mitchell-Hedges had bought the skull at a Sotheby's auction in 1943. For the rest of the story http://www.thestar.com/Travel/article/196456 Lubaantun is about 2 1/2 kilometres from the village of San Pedro Columbia. Admission is $5 (U.S.). For more, see www.southernbelize.com/lubaantun.html Nim Li Punit is beside the village of Indian Creek. Admission is also $5. For more, see www.southernbelize.com/nimli.html --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. From swood at uoregon.edu Fri Apr 20 16:33:20 2007 From: swood at uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:33:20 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Fwd: Maya glyph decipherment References: Message-ID: <44F542FD-12B2-40F6-8C82-982C145F27B9@uoregon.edu> Hello again If the links in my previous message do not work for you, instead of just clicking on them from your e-mail, copy and paste them into your browser's URL window and remove any blank spaces (or 20% symbols) that might have been inserted inadvertently, and then hit Enter. There are no spaces in the actual addresses. Thanks! Stephanie From deamayaspin at yahoo.com Sat Apr 21 08:06:48 2007 From: deamayaspin at yahoo.com (D. M. Urquidi) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 06:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] two headed entities In-Reply-To: <199903.41249.qm@web60114.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <515258.43312.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> jeremy That is good news because the glyph makers could only reference that which they knew about. But I believe there is a glyph that refers to this bicho. I found them in An Outline Dictionary of Maya Glyphs. by WIlliam Gates A prefix with a circle of some sort at the bottom and a double, single [double] shaft in the middle, ladder. . . 616, 69.3.1, w/ cauac and kan, 25.1.2, 22.5.1, 19.14.2, (same as 69.3.1), 1.4.1.1 as a second prefix, and quite a few as 17.2.1 prefixes. Also in Gates, there were a few glyph prefixes that referred to a double headed comet (as fire torches). There should be more that may have been found on stelae that have been dug up. . . can't be sure of that though because stone is more difficult to cut as thin lines across a vertical line. Dea > In reference to D. M. Urquidi, though it is not a > glyph referencing such a creature, there is a > creature that inhabits the Maya Underworld that > could spawn such a glyph. E. Wyllys > Andrews IV (1965, p. 4) writes in "Balankanche, > Throne of the Tiger Priest," a book about > the exploration of the caves 4 km. west of Chichen > Itza, describes George Stuart's > adventures: > > > "Another cave denizen which added more than a > little excitement to our life was a very large > myriapod, which seemed in the darkness to have two > heads, an appearance exaggerated by > its motion when cornered: it rushed forwards or > backwards at frightening speed, attacking > any objects which seemed to threaten it and > leaving a sprinkling of venemous-looking clear > liquid where it tried to bite. We and the Indian > workers were terrified by its awesome > appearance and aggressive habits. They called it > u-dzudz-mitlan ("the kiss of hell") in Maya, > and said that it spouted venom from fangs at both > ends as well as from its myriad punctuate > feet--either and all probably deadly." > > > > They did catch the creature and found out from > responsible biologists that it was a species > of scolopendra. > > > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765 http://www.mayalords.org http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eschele at austin.rr.com Sat Apr 21 23:15:24 2007 From: eschele at austin.rr.com (Elaine Day Schele) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:15:24 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Mesoweb Posting Message-ID: <000f01c78494$da103530$6401a8c0@gis> Hi Everyone, Joel has recently posted the following at http://www.mesoweb.com/: New: A Tour and Brief History of Edzna - by Jorge P?rez de Lara (versi?n en espa?ol) From ECOLING at aol.com Sun Apr 22 08:58:30 2007 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:58:30 EDT Subject: [Aztlan] Trade S. & C. America to West Mexico Message-ID: In the April issue of National Geographic, under "expeditions", there is a page on El Pantano in West Mexico reporting work by Joseph Mountjoy on El Pantano (the marsh) in the Mascota Valley. The short summary concludes: <> If you want to learn more about the importance of Colombia, Panama, and neighboring areas to the history of the Americas, iconography, archaeology, mythology, and other aspects, come to the September 15 Symposium of the Pre-Columbian Society of Washington, DC "The Center of the Americas: Contemporary Studies of an Ancient World" See a list of speakers (and later more information) at the web site http://www.pcswdc.org/ Best wishes, Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From ECOLING at aol.com Mon Apr 23 08:20:19 2007 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:20:19 EDT Subject: [Aztlan] The Other Conquest Message-ID: Opening dates May 4, 11, 18 in theaters in the Southwestern states. More openings later. FORWARDED MESSAGE FROM THE PRODUCTION TEAM OF "LA OTRA CONQUISTA": ------------------------------ Hello, On May 4 "The Other Conquest (La Otra Conquista)," the powerful film by Salvador Carrasco about the Spanish conquest of Mexico will be released in select cities! This masterpiece of world cinema has captivated audiences everywhere and now American moviegoers will get to experience this moving, unforgettable movie about a clash of cultures. For More Information visit www.theotherconquest.com or www.myspace.com/theotherconquest MESSAGE FROM SALVADOR CARRASCO: "The Other Conquest" tells the story of the Aztecs? spiritual and psychological resistance to the 1521 Spanish conquest of Mexico. The film explores the ways in which people on the receiving end of conquests, invasions, colonization, or certain kinds of "liberation", struggle to preserve their identity and beliefs in spite of military defeat. Their other conquest is a spiritual one, often attained at great personal sacrifice. The story depicted in this film is not just about Aztecs and Spaniards; it has been repeating itself throughout history, even to this day, in different shades and forms. Salvador Carrasco Writer/Director, ?The Other Conquest? Santa Monica, California April 14, 2007 Reflexion del Director ?La Otra Conquista? cuenta la historia de la resistencia espiritual y sicologica de los aztecas ante los efectos de la conquista espanola de Mexico. La pel?cula explora las diferentes formas en que una civilizacion que ha sufrido una invasion, colonizacion, o cierto tipo de ?liberacion?, lucha por preservar su identidad y creencias a pesar de la derrota militar. El gran reto de estos pueblos, su otra conquista, es la integridad espiritual, que a menudo conlleva un enorme sacrificio personal. Este conflicto se ha venido repitiendo en diversas formas a traves de la historia, incluso hoy en d?a, de ahi la relevancia actual de esta pelicula. Salvador Carrasco Guionista/Director, ?La Otra Conquista? Santa Monica, California 14 de abril del 2007 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Apr 23 12:00:07 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:00:07 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Bow and Arrow Message-ID: <462CE617.1060300@potsdam.edu> Perhaps one last observation on the theme of arrows. According to the myth reported in the Cronica Mexicayotl, Moteucuhtzoma was conceived when his father, the tlahtoani Huitzilihuitl shot an arrow into the compound of Miahuixihuitl, princess of Cuauhnahuac. When she picked up the arrow it had broken to reveal a jade inside. She tested the jade with her teeth, and swallowed it by accident, thus becoming pregnant with Moteucuhtzoma. Fernando Alvarado Tezozomoc, _Cronica Mexicayotl_ (Mexico, UNAM, 1992 (second revised edition) pp. 90-95 -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 From schwallr at potsdam.edu Mon Apr 23 14:06:37 2007 From: schwallr at potsdam.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:06:37 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters Message-ID: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu> Is there any evidence in Mesoamerica to support what is called "three sisters" planting up here along the Canadian border? This refers to the planting of corn, beans, and squash in the same hill. The corn stalk provides support for the climbing beans; the beans fix nitrogen in the soil for use by the corn and squash, while the broad leaves of the squash protect the soil from both the percussive effects of the rain and the loss of nutrients through solar heat, while directing the moisture to the center of the plant. -- ***************************** John F. Schwaller President SUNY - Potsdam 44 Pierrepont Ave. Potsdam, NY 13676 Tel. 315-267-2100 FAX 315-267-2496 From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Mon Apr 23 17:25:36 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nick Hopkins) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:25:36 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters In-Reply-To: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu> References: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: <99723AD0-B034-4E50-8D4A-169466170A17@mailer.fsu.edu> That is precisely the traditional "Mesoamerican triad," the discovery of which was probably a major factor in the development of MesoA societies. BTW the squash also shades out weeds and provides the amino acids necessary for proper nutrition (protein from beans, starches and sugars from maize). Chili peppers add vitamins (and pizzazz!). Anyway, crack almost any of the older ethnographies of Mesoamerica and you will find this milpa complex described. Nick Hopkins On Apr 23, 2007, at 3:06 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Is there any evidence in Mesoamerica to support what is called "three > sisters" planting up here along the Canadian border? This refers > to the > planting of corn, beans, and squash in the same hill. The corn stalk > provides support for the climbing beans; the beans fix nitrogen in the > soil for use by the corn and squash, while the broad leaves of the > squash protect the soil from both the percussive effects of the > rain and > the loss of nutrients through solar heat, while directing the moisture > to the center of the plant. From husmith at charter.net Mon Apr 23 21:20:56 2007 From: husmith at charter.net (Hube Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:20:56 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters References: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: <000a01c78617$31774ba0$6501a8c0@Smithfamily> I call it the "Meso-American Triad." My study community and every other one in Yucatan does precisely that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John F. Schwaller" To: Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:06 PM Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters > Is there any evidence in Mesoamerica to support what is called "three > sisters" planting up here along the Canadian border? This refers to the > planting of corn, beans, and squash in the same hill. The corn stalk > provides support for the climbing beans; the beans fix nitrogen in the > soil for use by the corn and squash, while the broad leaves of the > squash protect the soil from both the percussive effects of the rain and > the loss of nutrients through solar heat, while directing the moisture > to the center of the plant. > > -- > ***************************** > John F. Schwaller > President > SUNY - Potsdam > 44 Pierrepont Ave. > Potsdam, NY 13676 > Tel. 315-267-2100 > FAX 315-267-2496 > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > From husmith at charter.net Mon Apr 23 21:22:20 2007 From: husmith at charter.net (Hube Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:22:20 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters References: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu> <99723AD0-B034-4E50-8D4A-169466170A17@mailer.fsu.edu> Message-ID: <001301c78617$636c24f0$6501a8c0@Smithfamily> All true, but the squash leafs "smothering" weeds goes only so far. Perhaps the most brutal job of the milpa, even worse than the tumba, is the weeding. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Hopkins" To: "Aztlan" Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters > That is precisely the traditional "Mesoamerican triad," the discovery > of which was probably a major factor in the development of MesoA > societies. BTW the squash also shades out weeds and provides the > amino acids necessary for proper nutrition (protein from beans, > starches and sugars from maize). Chili peppers add vitamins (and > pizzazz!). Anyway, crack almost any of the older ethnographies of > Mesoamerica and you will find this milpa complex described. > > Nick Hopkins > > On Apr 23, 2007, at 3:06 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > >> Is there any evidence in Mesoamerica to support what is called "three >> sisters" planting up here along the Canadian border? This refers >> to the >> planting of corn, beans, and squash in the same hill. The corn stalk >> provides support for the climbing beans; the beans fix nitrogen in the >> soil for use by the corn and squash, while the broad leaves of the >> squash protect the soil from both the percussive effects of the >> rain and >> the loss of nutrients through solar heat, while directing the moisture >> to the center of the plant. > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > From deamayaspin at yahoo.com Tue Apr 24 05:03:07 2007 From: deamayaspin at yahoo.com (D. M. Urquidi) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Aztlan] Astronomy Message-ID: <53406.87922.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Folks: Does anyone know about Thor Anderson's star observations of the Maya in Chiapas? Dea D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765 http://www.mayalords.org http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Institute at csumb.edu Tue Apr 24 06:20:49 2007 From: Institute at csumb.edu (Archaeology Institute) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 04:20:49 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters In-Reply-To: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu> References: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu> Message-ID: "John F. Schwaller" on Monday, April 23, 2007 at 12:06 PM -0800 wrote: >Is there any evidence in Mesoamerica to support what is called "three >sisters" planting up here along the Canadian border? This refers to the >planting of corn, beans, and squash in the same hill. The corn stalk >provides support for the climbing beans; the beans fix nitrogen in the >soil for use by the corn and squash, while the broad leaves of the >squash protect the soil from both the percussive effects of the rain and >the loss of nutrients through solar heat, while directing the moisture >to the center of the plant. > >-- >***************************** >John F. Schwaller Dear John, In my review of "The Natural History of Maize", I found quite a bit of new information on the broad cultural distributions and cultural impacts of maize on world diet. At present, maize constitutes the most broadly distributed and consumed foodstuff in the world...typically found in over one thousand food products in a well stocked super market. Maize is infinitely mutable, and its genetics may be altered radically over the course of a few generations...while at the same time the lime processing of maize, which appears earliest at Teotihuacan, constitutes the earliest world evidence for the chemical processing of any foodstuff, anywhere in the world. See the articles in question by way of the following references: Mendoza, Ruben G. 2003d Maize: The Natural History of Maize. In Encyclopedia of Food and Culture, Volume 2: Food Production to Nuts, pp. 417-424. Solomon H. Katz, Editor in Chief, Scribner Library of Daily Life. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons. 2003c Maize as a Food. In Encyclopedia of Food and Culture, Volume 2: Food Production to Nuts, pp. 424-431. Solomon H. Katz, Editor in Chief, Scribner Library of Daily Life. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons. [With Irene Casas, co-author] Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology.csumb at gmail.edu Voice: 831-582-3760; Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu; http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ "Science progresses at the rate of one funeral at a time." -Albert Einstein "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -Albert Einstein "He who argues with a fool proves that there are two." -Anonymous Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. From wolfhawk at tds.net Tue Apr 24 04:35:21 2007 From: wolfhawk at tds.net (wolfhawk) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:35:21 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters References: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu><99723AD0-B034-4E50-8D4A-169466170A17@mailer.fsu.edu> <001301c78617$636c24f0$6501a8c0@Smithfamily> Message-ID: <001301c78654$ac1e7300$6401a8c0@VGloer> Is there evidence that much weeding was done in Mesoamerica? In some places, crops were planted and then returned to near harvest time without much attention in the interim. Is there any evidence that mulch was used to keep weeds down? What size fields are we talking about here - 1 acre or 100 acre fields? How much acreage was planted in relation to what size population? wolfhawk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hube Smith" To: "Nick Hopkins" ; "Aztlan" Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters All true, but the squash leafs "smothering" weeds goes only so far. Perhaps the most brutal job of the milpa, even worse than the tumba, is the weeding. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Hopkins" To: "Aztlan" Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters > That is precisely the traditional "Mesoamerican triad," the discovery > of which was probably a major factor in the development of MesoA > societies. BTW the squash also shades out weeds and provides the > amino acids necessary for proper nutrition (protein from beans, > starches and sugars from maize). Chili peppers add vitamins (and > pizzazz!). Anyway, crack almost any of the older ethnographies of > Mesoamerica and you will find this milpa complex described. > > Nick Hopkins > > On Apr 23, 2007, at 3:06 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > >> Is there any evidence in Mesoamerica to support what is called "three >> sisters" planting up here along the Canadian border? This refers >> to the >> planting of corn, beans, and squash in the same hill. The corn stalk >> provides support for the climbing beans; the beans fix nitrogen in the >> soil for use by the corn and squash, while the broad leaves of the >> squash protect the soil from both the percussive effects of the >> rain and >> the loss of nutrients through solar heat, while directing the moisture >> to the center of the plant. > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From husmith at charter.net Tue Apr 24 09:45:22 2007 From: husmith at charter.net (Hube Smith) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:45:22 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters References: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu><99723AD0-B034-4E50-8D4A-169466170A17@mailer.fsu.edu><001301c78617$636c24f0$6501a8c0@Smithfamily> <001301c78654$ac1e7300$6401a8c0@VGloer> Message-ID: <005901c7867f$300522c0$6501a8c0@Smithfamily> Families will choose to plant anywhere from 5 to 10 hectares, according to their labor pool and other factors (e.g., rolling the dice for a surplus, hoping to cover an entire year without purchasing corn, etc.). I can't lay my hands on my production figures, but the milpa is self-limiting in that a person simply can not manage labor beyond a more or less fixed level. Current maize production (for some 3+ decades) has been sustained by chemical fertilizers. These help maintain a somewhat artificial (and ghastly) ghost of what used to be. The ideal "Milpa System" deal with a fixed base of land (the ejido) and a fixed population so that unused forest can be permitted a resting period of, say, 10 years between plantings. However, because the Maya are uncommonly hospitable, many communities have welcomed new residents, often doubling and tripling the number of persons with access to the ejido--thus pressuring the land and necessitating chemicals to sustain production. This, in turn, has fostered new ventures. For example, my study community has been raising cut flowers in a government-built mammoth greenhouse. They have also turned a failed citrus orchard (with mechanical irrigation) in to a never-fail maize lot. Hube Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "wolfhawk" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 2:35 AM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters > Is there evidence that much weeding was done in Mesoamerica? In some > places, > crops were planted and then returned to near harvest time without much > attention in the interim. Is there any evidence that mulch was used to > keep > weeds down? What size fields are we talking about here - 1 acre or 100 > acre > fields? How much acreage was planted in relation to what size population? > > wolfhawk > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hube Smith" > To: "Nick Hopkins" ; "Aztlan" > > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters > > > All true, but the squash leafs "smothering" weeds goes only so far. > > Perhaps the most brutal job of the milpa, even worse than the tumba, is > > the weeding. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Hopkins" > To: "Aztlan" > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters > > >> That is precisely the traditional "Mesoamerican triad," the discovery >> of which was probably a major factor in the development of MesoA >> societies. BTW the squash also shades out weeds and provides the >> amino acids necessary for proper nutrition (protein from beans, >> starches and sugars from maize). Chili peppers add vitamins (and >> pizzazz!). Anyway, crack almost any of the older ethnographies of >> Mesoamerica and you will find this milpa complex described. >> >> Nick Hopkins >> >> On Apr 23, 2007, at 3:06 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: >> >>> Is there any evidence in Mesoamerica to support what is called "three >>> sisters" planting up here along the Canadian border? This refers >>> to the >>> planting of corn, beans, and squash in the same hill. The corn stalk >>> provides support for the climbing beans; the beans fix nitrogen in the >>> soil for use by the corn and squash, while the broad leaves of the >>> squash protect the soil from both the percussive effects of the >>> rain and >>> the loss of nutrients through solar heat, while directing the moisture >>> to the center of the plant. >> _______________________________________________ >> Aztlan mailing list >> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan >> > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > From bwrogers at usgs.gov Tue Apr 24 12:45:31 2007 From: bwrogers at usgs.gov (Bruce Rogers) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:45:31 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Restoration of Leutze's 1848 "The Storming of the Teocalli by Cortez and His Troops" Message-ID: Listeros, This article was sent out Sunday over the AP wires to the San Francisco Chronicle and may be of interest. ""If you're going to restore a piece of art to the way it was on the day it was finished, you need to know exactly what materials they used." DePhillips' latest project, an analysis of an 1848 painting by Emanuel Leutze at the Wadsworth, is particularly ambitious because of its massive size - 8 feet wide and 7 feet high - and historical significance. "The Storming of the Teocalli by Cortez and His Troops," which Leutze painted four years before his classic "Washington Crossing the Delaware," is one of the museum's gems. But it also is showing its age - yellowing varnish discolors white backgrounds, fading blue skies have a greenish tint and blotches are evident from past restoration efforts by previous owners. DePhillips is analyzing samples to help Stephen Kornhauser, the Atheneum's chief conservator of paintings, determine how to slow or stop the deterioration. When in doubt, conservators often choose to simply clean and revarnish a piece rather than break out the paints and brushes for a full-scale restoration. "Once we clean the piece, we really want it to look as it did the day it left Leutze's studio," Kornhauser said. "But we try to do as little as possible that produces the best results." The entire article with a color photo can be seen at: Cheers, Bruce Rogers, earth scientist on a good day From carmecol at hotmail.com Tue Apr 24 10:57:21 2007 From: carmecol at hotmail.com (Carlos Rincón Mautner) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:57:21 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Not all maize created equal..... follow-up to Re: Three sisters In-Reply-To: <001301c78654$ac1e7300$6401a8c0@VGloer> Message-ID: Good morning Aztlan Community: I have been reading the exchanges about maize, beans and squash with much interest. I would like to point out that the seemingly homogeneous cultivation strategy involves a great diversity of maize varieties, and possibly of beans and squash as well, and different types of field techniques or "cultural practices" that include weeding depending on the variety. For example, in the Mixteca Alta there are at least two different milpa varieties of maize planted, with different planting times and "cultural practices" applied during the growing season. The variety referred to locally as "ma?z cajete" or bowl maize (from the Nahuatl word "caxitl" meaning hemispherical bowl, also as "nu? cajete" in Chocho and "tata ndo'o" in Mixteco) has a plump seed, selected because it roots fast, and presents frost and drought resistant characteristics. This variety is planted in the natural drainages and along the toe slopes where humidity concentrates as early as February when "nortes" produce a fine drizzle. Farmers typically make a depression approximately 30 cm deep and 40-50 cm in diameter. Three maize seeds are deposited at the center of the depression and covered with top soil. Beans and squash may also be planted, but it is not as common a practice as in the cultivation of the rainy season variety know as "ma?z de temporal" (nu? de temporal in Chocho and "tata dzavui" in Mixteco. "Dzahui" means rain in Mixteco. This planting takes place in May and June just before the onset of the rains. The cajete system is the most labor intensive, as it involves field making techniques (i.e., stone faced terracing that function as sediment and humidity traps), requires farmers to perform at least one weeding during the growing season and the removal of soil and reconditioning of the depression once the rains arrive. The soil washes over the plants and buries them, so it is necessary to release them. In contrast, the "temporal" variety requires no weeding, but it may have in the past. The introduction of livestock probably contributed to a significant modification of farming practices. I suspect that weeding practices became less of a priority than in preconquest times. There has probably been an overall reduction in weeding and burning of stubble since it is used as livestock feed especially in semi-arid and arid regions. I realize this is hard to prove, but is something to be kept in mind, especially in the context of the catastrophic population decline in the 16th and 17th centuries which translated to a significant loss of field laborers, and possibly the abandonment of labor intensive field practices like weeding and a favoring of stock raising as a susbsistence strategy. The size of fields planted by one farmer varies depending on whether he decides to plant temporal or not. On average a farmer today probably plants between 3 - 10 hectares. I would be interested in hearing about others experience or findings on weeding and field sizes. Thanks. A great day to all. Enjoy. Carlos >From: "wolfhawk" >To: >Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters >Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:35:21 -0400 > >Is there evidence that much weeding was done in Mesoamerica? In some >places, >crops were planted and then returned to near harvest time without much >attention in the interim. Is there any evidence that mulch was used to keep >weeds down? What size fields are we talking about here - 1 acre or 100 acre >fields? How much acreage was planted in relation to what size population? > >wolfhawk > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Hube Smith" >To: "Nick Hopkins" ; "Aztlan" > >Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:22 PM >Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters > > >All true, but the squash leafs "smothering" weeds goes only so far. > >Perhaps the most brutal job of the milpa, even worse than the tumba, is > >the weeding. > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Nick Hopkins" >To: "Aztlan" >Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:25 PM >Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters > > > > That is precisely the traditional "Mesoamerican triad," the discovery > > of which was probably a major factor in the development of MesoA > > societies. BTW the squash also shades out weeds and provides the > > amino acids necessary for proper nutrition (protein from beans, > > starches and sugars from maize). Chili peppers add vitamins (and > > pizzazz!). Anyway, crack almost any of the older ethnographies of > > Mesoamerica and you will find this milpa complex described. > > > > Nick Hopkins > > > > On Apr 23, 2007, at 3:06 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > > >> Is there any evidence in Mesoamerica to support what is called "three > >> sisters" planting up here along the Canadian border? This refers > >> to the > >> planting of corn, beans, and squash in the same hill. The corn stalk > >> provides support for the climbing beans; the beans fix nitrogen in the > >> soil for use by the corn and squash, while the broad leaves of the > >> squash protect the soil from both the percussive effects of the > >> rain and > >> the loss of nutrients through solar heat, while directing the moisture > >> to the center of the plant. > > _______________________________________________ > > Aztlan mailing list > > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > > >_______________________________________________ >Aztlan mailing list >Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > > >_______________________________________________ >Aztlan mailing list >Aztlan at lists.famsi.org >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan _________________________________________________________________ MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John.? Enter to win today. http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline From husmith at charter.net Tue Apr 24 10:54:43 2007 From: husmith at charter.net (Hube Smith) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:54:43 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters References: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu><99723AD0-B034-4E50-8D4A-169466170A17@mailer.fsu.edu><001301c78617$636c24f0$6501a8c0@Smithfamily> <001301c78654$ac1e7300$6401a8c0@VGloer> Message-ID: <009101c78688$e205e5a0$6501a8c0@Smithfamily> I should have added that population growth is another pressure on the land-base. In the past three decades, many isolated commmuinities were given roads. Immediately, sick babies and adults got quicker access to health care. Infant mortality has dropped further as clinics were located in even remote communities. Babies don't die in the numbers they formerly did and the result is young men who, by virtue of resident status, HAVE to be made part of the group with usufruct access to the land-base. Of course, many young men go off to Merida and other locales to work 5.5 days each week before returning to the community for late Saturday and Sunday. These young guys often pay stay-at-homes to work their milpas or they time their outside work so they can be at home during heavy work in the milpa--a corn crop demands distinct periods of work and other periods when it is not needed. From jbaker at ecoplanaz.com Tue Apr 24 11:52:37 2007 From: jbaker at ecoplanaz.com (Jeff Baker) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:52:37 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters References: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu><99723AD0-B034-4E50-8D4A-169466170A17@mailer.fsu.edu><001301c78617$636c24f0$6501a8c0@Smithfamily> <001301c78654$ac1e7300$6401a8c0@VGloer> Message-ID: Based upon 20th century ethnographies, Maya farmers cultivated anywhere from 1.28-5.0 hectares (ha) per year, with fallow periods ranging from 2-18 years. Based upon the area cropped and the fallow cycle, the average family utilized about 20-50 ha of land. During the Late Classic Period, farmers living in rural areas would have only had about 1.5-3 ha of land available (both cropped and fallow land). Given this small area of land, it is likely that weeding was very extensive and that mulches were used. Finding evidence for archaeological evidence for weeding seems unlikely, but studies at a few sites have found evidence for the application of organic mulches to fields. It also seems unlikely that the fields would have been ignored for long periods of time. In all probability the farmers probably made daily or near daily visits to their fields. Sincerely, Jeffrey L. Baker, Ph.D EcoPlan Associates, Inc. 78 W. Cushing St. Tucson, AZ 85701 480-733-6666 480-733-6661 (fax) -----Original Message----- From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of wolfhawk Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 2:35 AM To: AZTLAN at lists.famsi.org Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters Is there evidence that much weeding was done in Mesoamerica? In some places, crops were planted and then returned to near harvest time without much attention in the interim. Is there any evidence that mulch was used to keep weeds down? What size fields are we talking about here - 1 acre or 100 acre fields? How much acreage was planted in relation to what size population? wolfhawk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hube Smith" To: "Nick Hopkins" ; "Aztlan" Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters All true, but the squash leafs "smothering" weeds goes only so far. Perhaps the most brutal job of the milpa, even worse than the tumba, is the weeding. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Hopkins" To: "Aztlan" Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters > That is precisely the traditional "Mesoamerican triad," the discovery > of which was probably a major factor in the development of MesoA > societies. BTW the squash also shades out weeds and provides the > amino acids necessary for proper nutrition (protein from beans, > starches and sugars from maize). Chili peppers add vitamins (and > pizzazz!). Anyway, crack almost any of the older ethnographies of > Mesoamerica and you will find this milpa complex described. > > Nick Hopkins > > On Apr 23, 2007, at 3:06 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > >> Is there any evidence in Mesoamerica to support what is called "three >> sisters" planting up here along the Canadian border? This refers >> to the >> planting of corn, beans, and squash in the same hill. The corn stalk >> provides support for the climbing beans; the beans fix nitrogen in the >> soil for use by the corn and squash, while the broad leaves of the >> squash protect the soil from both the percussive effects of the >> rain and >> the loss of nutrients through solar heat, while directing the moisture >> to the center of the plant. > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Tue Apr 24 10:53:03 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nick Hopkins) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:53:03 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Three Sisters Message-ID: <6740EC4F-D92F-4A49-8E7F-A57609873E2A@mailer.fsu.edu> In response to wolfhawk's questions, Evon Z. Vogt (The Zinacantecos of Mexico) and Frank Cancian (Economics and Prestige in a Maya Community) give the following measures of land use and productivity (converted from the local measures of almuds and f?negas and the like? hope I've done the math correctly!). This is for highland Chiapas; figures for other areas would differ. Land varies greatly in quality, but is mostly very rocky, so plots are measured by quantity of seed planted, not acreage (or hectares). But, about one hectare of land (100 x 100 meters) would take, on the average, about 0.43 bushels of seed (1 almud), planted to leave three or more stalks per hill. Expecting some 5 ears to the hill, harvests from one hectare (.43 bu. planted) range from a low for bad quality cold country plots of 15 bushels (1 almud planted, 3 f?negas harvested), to an average for hot country plots of 41 bushels (1 almud planted, 8 f?negas harvested). An average family needs about 25 bushels of maize (5 f?negas) to eat for a year. So, an average family needs to plant from 0.61 to 1.7 hectares of land, depending on quality, to get food for the year. That is a bare minimum, with no surplus. To increase the yield, the usual mixed strategy is to farm small plots of cold country, near home, additional plots in ejido land in temperate country, and rented land in hot country. Weeding is not needed in new fields (freshly cleared and burned) but becomes more of a burden in older fields. Nick Hopkins From husmith at charter.net Tue Apr 24 13:47:27 2007 From: husmith at charter.net (Hube Smith) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:47:27 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Three Sisters References: <6740EC4F-D92F-4A49-8E7F-A57609873E2A@mailer.fsu.edu> Message-ID: <00dc01c786a1$01fc7f50$6501a8c0@Smithfamily> Answer to several posts: The Yucatec Maya have two varities of trad maize , "znuk nal" and "xmehen nal." They also plant some "hibrido" although this is not popular because if its sensitivity to drought. "Znuk Nal" (I am spelling "znuk" wrong--can't find it!) is "tall corn" and it has a l onger growth-to-maturity and produces a larger ear than "Xmehen Nal" which has a shorter season. If a Maya visits his field after planting, it is probably relatively often to check out sprouting and pest damage. Thereafter and until weeding, he may check his milpa once a week or go there to hunt those same pests. After weeding, as long as he is reassured that notoriously spotty rains have actually "hit" his field, he will pay few visits until near-harvest. The beauty of the milpa cycle, as Redfield and others have pointed out, is it allows ex-village work which the Maya have done ever since there was a viceroy who needed a well dug or a house built. In South-Central Yucatan, a 1.5 hectarea milpa will not feed a family today--this with the caveat that maybe the Chiapas Highland get better rains than they do around Ticul-Tekax-Peto. Weeding is needed in "milpa rosa" or newly-burned fields because weeds choke plants six weeks after planting. . In "milpa'cana" or second (and even third-year) milpas, heavy weed growth must be fired after the "seqquia" or dry season but not, of course, heavy slash of downed trees as in brand-new fields. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Hopkins" To: "Aztlan" Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 8:53 AM Subject: [Aztlan] Three Sisters In response to wolfhawk's questions, Evon Z. Vogt (The Zinacantecos of Mexico) and Frank Cancian (Economics and Prestige in a Maya Community) give the following measures of land use and productivity (converted from the local measures of almuds and f?negas and the like? hope I've done the math correctly!). This is for highland Chiapas; figures for other areas would differ. Land varies greatly in quality, but is mostly very rocky, so plots are measured by quantity of seed planted, not acreage (or hectares). But, about one hectare of land (100 x 100 meters) would take, on the average, about 0.43 bushels of seed (1 almud), planted to leave three or more stalks per hill. Expecting some 5 ears to the hill, harvests from one hectare (.43 bu. planted) range from a low for bad quality cold country plots of 15 bushels (1 almud planted, 3 f?negas harvested), to an average for hot country plots of 41 bushels (1 almud planted, 8 f?negas harvested). An average family needs about 25 bushels of maize (5 f?negas) to eat for a year. So, an average family needs to plant from 0.61 to 1.7 hectares of land, depending on quality, to get food for the year. That is a bare minimum, with no surplus. To increase the yield, the usual mixed strategy is to farm small plots of cold country, near home, additional plots in ejido land in temperate country, and rented land in hot country. Weeding is not needed in new fields (freshly cleared and burned) but becomes more of a burden in older fields. Nick Hopkins _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From jbaker at ecoplanaz.com Tue Apr 24 17:21:19 2007 From: jbaker at ecoplanaz.com (Jeff Baker) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:21:19 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Atlas of Mexico Message-ID: I came across this brief blurb: "UNAM's Instituto de Geograf?a has made the Atlas nacional de M?xico - the national atlas of Mexico - available online. The atlas is comprised of literally hundreds of high-quality maps on every subject a national atlas ought to have, from oceanography to national history. The drawback is that they're only available as high-resolution scans - a couple of megabytes apiece - which make them a little hard to browse through. Still, a real find. In Spanish only." The maps, at least the ones I looked at, are all at a country wide scale, which limits their utility for archaeological purposes. But, some may find them helpful. Jeffrey L. Baker, Ph.D Archaeologist EcoPlan Associates 78 W. Cushing St. Tucson, AZ 85701 (480) 733-666, ext. 126 (480) 733-6661 (fax) From migcov at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 21:16:03 2007 From: migcov at gmail.com (Miguel Covarrubias) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:16:03 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Atlas of Mexico In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You should try www.inegi.gob.mx , there's a 1:1000000 scale map that can be downloaded by layers in .shp format to be used in a GIS for archaeological research purposes, its free. There you can also order on-line maps in different scales and other products. Saludos Miguel Covarrubias R. Merida, Yucatan 2007/4/24, Jeff Baker : > > > > I came across this brief blurb: > > > > "UNAM's Instituto de Geograf?a has made the Atlas nacional de M?xico < > http://www.igeograf.unam.mx/instituto/publicaciones/atlas_nacional.htm> - > the national atlas of Mexico - available online. The atlas is comprised of > literally hundreds of high-quality maps on every subject a national atlas > ought to have, from oceanography to national history. The drawback is that > they're only available as high-resolution scans - a couple of megabytes > apiece - which make them a little hard to browse through. Still, a real > find. In Spanish only." > > > > The maps, at least the ones I looked at, are all at a country wide scale, > which limits their utility for archaeological purposes. But, some may find > them helpful. > > > > > > Jeffrey L. Baker, Ph.D > > Archaeologist > > EcoPlan Associates > > 78 W. Cushing St. > > Tucson, AZ 85701 > > (480) 733-666, ext. 126 > > (480) 733-6661 (fax) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > From wolfhawk at tds.net Wed Apr 25 05:02:23 2007 From: wolfhawk at tds.net (wolfhawk) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:02:23 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters References: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu><99723AD0-B034-4E50-8D4A-169466170A17@mailer.fsu.edu><001301c78617$636c24f0$6501a8c0@Smithfamily> <001301c78654$ac1e7300$6401a8c0@VGloer> Message-ID: <003101c78721$177f7cd0$6401a8c0@VGloer> Many thanks to all who presented answers to my questions. I am intending to do a "three sisters" planting this year along with my half dozen varieties of hot peppers and tomatos. wolfhawk ----- Original Message ----- From: "wolfhawk" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 5:35 AM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters Is there evidence that much weeding was done in Mesoamerica? In some places, crops were planted and then returned to near harvest time without much attention in the interim. Is there any evidence that mulch was used to keep weeds down? What size fields are we talking about here - 1 acre or 100 acre fields? How much acreage was planted in relation to what size population? wolfhawk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hube Smith" To: "Nick Hopkins" ; "Aztlan" Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters All true, but the squash leafs "smothering" weeds goes only so far. Perhaps the most brutal job of the milpa, even worse than the tumba, is the weeding. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Hopkins" To: "Aztlan" Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters > That is precisely the traditional "Mesoamerican triad," the discovery > of which was probably a major factor in the development of MesoA > societies. BTW the squash also shades out weeds and provides the > amino acids necessary for proper nutrition (protein from beans, > starches and sugars from maize). Chili peppers add vitamins (and > pizzazz!). Anyway, crack almost any of the older ethnographies of > Mesoamerica and you will find this milpa complex described. > > Nick Hopkins > > On Apr 23, 2007, at 3:06 PM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > >> Is there any evidence in Mesoamerica to support what is called "three >> sisters" planting up here along the Canadian border? This refers >> to the >> planting of corn, beans, and squash in the same hill. The corn stalk >> provides support for the climbing beans; the beans fix nitrogen in the >> soil for use by the corn and squash, while the broad leaves of the >> squash protect the soil from both the percussive effects of the >> rain and >> the loss of nutrients through solar heat, while directing the moisture >> to the center of the plant. > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From megom at adelphia.net Wed Apr 25 07:46:33 2007 From: megom at adelphia.net (Martha Gottlieb) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:46:33 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Three sisters References: <462D03BD.9000904@potsdam.edu><99723AD0-B034-4E50-8D4A-169466170A17@mailer.fsu.edu><001301c78617$636c24f0$6501a8c0@Smithfamily><001301c78654$ac1e7300$6401a8c0@VGloer> <003101c78721$177f7cd0$6401a8c0@VGloer> Message-ID: <000c01c78737$c1a3ff90$6501a8c0@hewlett63wy6j1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "wolfhawk" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 5:35 AM Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Three sisters Many thanks to all who presented answers to my questions. I am intending to do a "three sisters" planting this year along with my half dozen varieties of hot peppers and tomatos. wolfhawk Hi wolfhawk - What variety of corn do you figure is right for your area? Around here, (Maine), an 8 row flint would be original. Do you have Long Pie pumpkin seeds? They were around very early. I have heard that an additional benefit of pumpkin around the corn plants is that the racoons are discouraged by the rough foliage. In their wisdom, they think the corn is ripe just a couple of days before we do. Martha Gottlieb From renehauron at laposte.net Wed Apr 25 14:15:50 2007 From: renehauron at laposte.net (renehauron) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:15:50 +0200 Subject: [Aztlan] Consulta para pesquisa Message-ID: renehauron wrote: Querido Se?or John F. Schwaller Gracias una vez m?s por responder a mi pregunta. Efectivamente, lo redactar? en espa?ol para mejor interpretaci?n, dado que mi Ingl?s es, infelizmente, p?simo. Mi inter?s particular para pesquisa es lo siguiente: Sabemos que la Cuenta Redonda (RC) proviene de los c?lculos presentados matem?ticamente sobre la construcci?n de la pir?mide de Kukulc?n de Chich?n Itz?. En cada una de sus 4 (cuatro) caras, la pir?mide tiene 1 escalera con 91 escalones. La multiplicaci?n de 91 X 4 nos entrega 364 escalones o sean d?as. Al sumarse la plataforma superior (com?n en sus cuatro caras) conseguimos 365 escalones o d?as. La multiplicaci?n de 365 por 52 (placas en cada cara de la pir?mide) 365 X 52 = 18.980 Para todos los efectos, 18.980 corresponder?an a d?as Estos corresponder?an a 52 a?os de 365 d?as del calendario Civil. Al dividir los 18.980 d?as por 260 (d?as del calendario religioso) tendr?amos 73 As? logramos tener los 73 a?os del calendario Religioso. A partir de esa configuraci?n, los n?meros se expanden hasta llegar a la Cuenta Larga (LC) con sus 5.126 a?os Matem?ticamente est?n correctos. Muy correctos. Al observarlos m?s atentamente, confirmamos que extraemos los 364 d?as de los 4 (cuatro) lados de la pir?mide. Pero para conseguir la LC empleamos solamente una de sus caras, uno de sus lados. La suma de las cuatro caras asciende a 208 placas. Por qu? no fueron utilizadas tambi?n esas 208 como las 364? Espero de coraz?n haber realizado mi pregunta dentro de la l?gica. Muchas gracias por su amable atenci?n. Abrazos cordiales. Cr?ez votre adresse ?lectronique prenom.nom at laposte.net 1 Go d'espace de stockage, anti-spam et anti-virus int?gr?s. From sarthurmorris at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 02:32:38 2007 From: sarthurmorris at gmail.com (S.A. Morris) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 02:32:38 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Three Sisters Message-ID: Allowing pole beans to grow on live corn stalks can hamper the growth of the ears and in more humid climates the pole beans would hamper the air flow health of the corn plant. Growing pole beans on giant sunflower stalks within the corn field allows the benefit of the nitrogen to the corn. Corn can produce an ear for every leaf on the stalk if not crowded in modern monoculture. The cultivation of sunflowers in Mesoamerica is as old as corn. Diversity examples of Mesoamerican corn: http://www.cipres.org/fpma/Documentos/EGuat2005.pdf http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/Y3841E/y3841e07.htm Arthur From sarthurmorris at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 03:05:10 2007 From: sarthurmorris at gmail.com (S.A. Morris) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 03:05:10 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers Message-ID: With the academic revision undertaken of past interpretations of Maya glyphs and paintings, will sunflowers be considered in place of waterlilies? Arthur From husmith at charter.net Thu Apr 26 09:12:46 2007 From: husmith at charter.net (Hube Smith) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:12:46 -0700 Subject: [Aztlan] Three Sisters References: Message-ID: <001901c7880c$f714f780$6501a8c0@Smithfamily> I have never seen a single sunflower in 30 years of work in Yucatan. The Maya are devotees of seeded foods and they raise squash in order to gather their seeds (and feed the meat to their pigs). In response to another assertion, I wonder if this an intuitive observation or one backed up by science. I think the Maya would burn every pole-bean seed they had if they thought they hampered the growth of "la gracia" (maize). Hube Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "S.A. Morris" To: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 12:32 AM Subject: [Aztlan] Three Sisters > Allowing pole beans to grow on live corn stalks can hamper the growth of > the > ears and in more humid climates the pole beans would hamper the air flow > health of the corn plant. Growing pole beans on giant sunflower stalks > within the corn field allows the benefit of the nitrogen to the corn. Corn > can produce an ear for every leaf on the stalk if not crowded in modern > monoculture. The cultivation of sunflowers in Mesoamerica is as old as > corn. > > > > > Diversity examples of Mesoamerican corn: > > http://www.cipres.org/fpma/Documentos/EGuat2005.pdf > > http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/Y3841E/y3841e07.htm > > Arthur > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > Aztlan at lists.famsi.org > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > From jorgepl at estudioelias.com Thu Apr 26 09:53:04 2007 From: jorgepl at estudioelias.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_P=E9rez_de_Lara?=) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:53:04 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Three Sisters In-Reply-To: <9486447.1177598020407.JavaMail.root@m41> References: <9486447.1177598020407.JavaMail.root@m41> Message-ID: <4630BCD0.8020607@estudioelias.com> I agree with Hube, There is no evidence that pole beans do harm to maize plants, however reasonable it may sound. Savvy farmers like the Maya and other maize farmers around Mesoamerica would have realized this centuries ago. And there is no evidence either that sunflowers were ever or are nowadays cultivated in milpas. I have driven through most of Mexico and traversed my share of maizales without ever once coming across a single mixed maize-sunflower plot. Jorge From jorgepl at estudioelias.com Thu Apr 26 11:14:43 2007 From: jorgepl at estudioelias.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_P=E9rez_de_Lara?=) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:14:43 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers In-Reply-To: <33187868.1177589438054.JavaMail.root@m41> References: <33187868.1177589438054.JavaMail.root@m41> Message-ID: <4630CFF3.30101@estudioelias.com> Arthur, I may be wrongly intepreting your comment here, but it seems that you imply that the interpretation of Maya glyphs has more to do with an iconographic approach (i.e., deciding whether a sign represents one thing or another) than with the true nature of Maya script. The "reinterpretation" of glyphs that you refer to is actually more a refinement in the understanding of a fully-fledged phono/logographic writing system. As a result of epigraphers coming to better understand the system and of linguists bringing their specialized knowledge to bear on the subject, ancient words that were pretty much understood in meaning and basic phonetics can now be understood and read more accurately, as the nuances of inflection, mode, etc. as represented in the script have become more clear. This, however, has not been through a process of iconically "correcting" the interpretation of a waterlily as a sunflower. Jorge Arthur Morris wrote With the academic revision undertaken of past interpretations of Maya glyphs and paintings, will sunflowers be considered in place of waterlilies? Arthur From nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu Thu Apr 26 10:26:04 2007 From: nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu (Nick Hopkins) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:26:04 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Sunflowers Message-ID: A couple of years ago, Mary Pohl excavated a domesticated sunflower seed near La Venta that predated anything in the US, so sunflowers were an early domesticate in Mesoamerica. It's true that you don't see them much these days, and they certainly aren't part of any milpa complex I know about, but they were there. Nick Hopkins From sarthurmorris at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 22:57:36 2007 From: sarthurmorris at gmail.com (S.A. Morris) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:57:36 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Three Sisters Message-ID: "?Letters indicate archaeological sites with the oldest remains of domesticated sunflower, where A is San Andr?s, Tabasco, Mexico (4,130 40 radiocarbon years before present (bp)), B is Higgs, Tennessee, USA (2,850 85 radiocarbon years bp), C is Hayes, Tennessee, USA (4,265 60 radiocarbon years bp) and D is Marble Bluff, Arkansas, USA (2,843 44 radiocarbon years bp);?", FIGURE 1. Map of sampling locations, archaeological sites and Native American groups., Origin of extant domesticated sunflowers in eastern North America, Abigail V. Harter, Keith A. Gardner, Daniel Falush, David L. Lentz, Robert A. Bye & Loren H. Rieseberg, Nature 430, 201-205(8 July 2004) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v430/n6996/fig_tab/nature02710_F1.html "?Although cultivated sunflower was long thought to have had a single origin in the eastern United States over 4000 years ago (*e.g.*, HEISER 1954 , HEISER 1955 ; RIESEBERG and SEILER 1990 ; CRITES 1993 ), LENTZ *et al.* 2001 recently reported finding domesticated sunflower achenes of a similar age in central Mexico. Moreover, two recent molecular studies suggest the possibility of multiple origins (S. TANG and S. J. KNAPP, unpublished data; A. V. HARTER and L. H. RIESEBERG, unpublished data)?" Genetic Analysis of Sunflower Domestication, *John M. Burke, Shunxue Tang, Steven J. Knapp, and Loren H. Rieseberg*, Genetics, Vol. 161, 1257-1267, July 2002, Copyright (c) 2002, http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/161/3/1257 "?The latest evidence, however, favors a Mexican origin. While excavating a pre-Olmec site at San Andr?s in Tabasco, Mexico, a team including paleoethnobotanist David Lentz of the New York Botanical Garden turned up the earliest traces of a domesticated sunflower: two carbonized seeds about 4,500 years old?", Discover Magazine, Taming the wild sunflower, by Sarah Richardson, 2002 http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jan/archaeology "?Much of my work has focused on the archaeobotany of the ancient Maya and Olmec, studying the differences in dietary habits among groups of varying economic status. Currently, I am investigating the origins of domesticated sunflower and current ethnographic uses of sunflower in Mexico. I welcome students interested in pursuing compatible research projects.", *David L. Lentz, *Department of Biological Sciences, University of Cincinnati, http://www.biology.uc.edu/faculty/Lentz/Lentz_home.htm JSTOR: Notes During a Journey in Guatemala, March to December, 1902, by Gustav Eisen Bulletin of the American Geographical Society (c) 1903, Vol. 35, No. 3, p. 247 of 231-252 JSTOR: The Sunflower among the North American Indians, by Charles B. Heiser, Jr., Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society (c) 1951, Vol. 95, No. 4, pp. 432-448 JSTOR: The Flower World in Material Culture: An Iconographic Complex in the Southwest and Mesoamerica, by Kelley Hays-Gilpin; Jane H. Hill Journal of Anthropological Research (c) 1999, Vol. 55, pp. 1-37, University of New Mexico Botanical Observations on the Voynich MS., by Hugh O'Neill Speculum (c) 1944, p. 126 of 126 *(1st of 3 pages),* Medieval Academy of America From JFarkas at casterbridgetours.com Fri Apr 27 12:24:17 2007 From: JFarkas at casterbridgetours.com (Jennifer Farkas) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:24:17 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Mayan Sites in Belize Message-ID: <9691CAE619FBC44082A5ED391916384A8F3E23@tours2k3.int.casterbridgetours.com> Hi Everyone! I am in the process of creating a tour of Mayan sites in Belize. We have a limited time (6 days) and I want the students (who are in 8th grade) to see the most important and impressive sites, ones that will really spark their passion for the Maya. So far I'm definite on visits to Caracol, over the border to Tikal, and Xunantunich; and I'm deciding among Lamanai, Altun Ha, El Pilar,and Lubaantum. I have not yet been to Belize and can't figure the effectiveness of these sites for young people from pictures or blurbs. Does anyone have any suggestions for me? Jennifer Farkas From poulsen at mail.utexas.edu Fri Apr 27 09:29:59 2007 From: poulsen at mail.utexas.edu (Larry Poulsen) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:29:59 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Achate Message-ID: <001b01c788d8$89b459c0$6501a8c0@HP> Has anybody heard of a place called Achate(s). I am not sure of the spelling but think it is located in either Belize or the Usamacinta basin. If someone knows anything about it and could give me an exact location, I would appreciate it. Larry P From sarthurmorris at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 15:18:58 2007 From: sarthurmorris at gmail.com (S.A. Morris) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:18:58 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers Message-ID: Hey Jorge, Yes, I understand about the phonetics. But if the icon is a cotton bole or a sunflower or some other type of flower, why keep calling it a lilly flower or a lilly pad unless it is? Arthur From sarthurmorris at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 15:26:48 2007 From: sarthurmorris at gmail.com (S.A. Morris) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:26:48 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Three Sisters Message-ID: Sorry about some of the references for cultivated sunflowers bunched all together in one big blob. They were spaced before posting. The conversations of companion planting is continued off list. Arthur From mayavase at verizon.net Fri Apr 27 18:54:11 2007 From: mayavase at verizon.net (Justin Kerr) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 19:54:11 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009801c78927$5b488e40$6701a8c0@justnew> Dear Mr. Morris, Forgive me for sticking my nose into your field, but would you please cite some of the images you are referring to. Justin Kerr -----Original Message----- From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of S.A. Morris Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 4:19 PM To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers Hey Jorge, Yes, I understand about the phonetics. But if the icon is a cotton bole or a sunflower or some other type of flower, why keep calling it a lilly flower or a lilly pad unless it is? Arthur _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From mayavase at verizon.net Fri Apr 27 19:46:24 2007 From: mayavase at verizon.net (Justin Kerr) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 20:46:24 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009c01c7892e$a66d4b70$6701a8c0@justnew> Dear Mr. Morris, I do not think there is any reason, in terms of imagery, to suggest that what is depicted is any thing but a water lily. The fact that the tendrils are connected to the character known as the "Water Lily Monster" and that in many cases these images are water based. I would suggest that this is not the proper environment for the growing of sunflowers. Justin _____ From: S.A. Morris [mailto:sarthurmorris at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 8:25 PM To: Justin Kerr Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers LOL...!!! Justin, I'm no expert...just a business person...and you and I both know through our conversations I'm wet behind the ears with all things Maya. But gonna keep plugging along and learning, and try not to stub my toes too often. Three that come to mind: K5961, K7287, and K7980. I haven't really looked for more. Arthur On 4/27/07, Justin Kerr wrote: Dear Mr. Morris, Forgive me for sticking my nose into your field, but would you please cite some of the images you are referring to. Justin Kerr -----Original Message----- From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org ] On Behalf Of S.A. Morris Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 4:19 PM To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers Hey Jorge, Yes, I understand about the phonetics. But if the icon is a cotton bole or a sunflower or some other type of flower, why keep calling it a lilly flower or a lilly pad unless it is? Arthur _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From megom at adelphia.net Fri Apr 27 23:39:59 2007 From: megom at adelphia.net (Martha Gottlieb) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 00:39:59 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers References: <009c01c7892e$a66d4b70$6701a8c0@justnew> Message-ID: <003a01c7894f$48075410$6501a8c0@hewlett63wy6j1> Just in order to throw caution to the winds, and bring in an old essay in revisionist botany, I'd like to mention a paper by John Bowles. I think it is from the first Palenque Mesa Redonda. Notes on a Floral Form Represented in Maya Art and its Iconographic Implications His thesis is that some, at least, of the "waterlilies" are another plant entirely; Dorstenia contrajerva. This is a bizarre relative of the fig. It is common enough in wet areas; leaf is halberd shaped on a long petiole growing directly from the crown. The flower is like a little exploded fig - squarish, flat, bumpy with the tiny flowers set into what looks like a little flag. Again, the flower stem is growing directly from the crown. It has enough medicinal uses that Bowles thought it might be so well regarded as to be represented in some of the "waterlily" cases. He mentions the texture of the "waterlily leaves"; the grid with dots or small circles, as on K 1842, for instance. A pattern, which when seen on crocodiles and turtles may indicate roughness. However, real waterlily leaves are smooth, and the veins are not grid like. He may have his best match at Tulum, where there is a very convincingly square example. My own suggestion (and it has probably been said before) is that the waterlilies are just that, and that the grid marked things (which can appear on the same plant as the flowers) are their seed pods. The common waterlilies of the region, Nymphaea sp, have round, crenelated pods with seeds set into the flat top. They look very much like the grid marked growths on, as an example, K 5073. Martha From megom at adelphia.net Sat Apr 28 23:09:06 2007 From: megom at adelphia.net (Martha Gottlieb) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 00:09:06 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers References: <009c01c7892e$a66d4b70$6701a8c0@justnew> Message-ID: <001401c78a14$21a24490$6501a8c0@hewlett63wy6j1> Dear Folks - I have misstated the # of one of the pots I referred to in my previous post. It is K 1892, not K 1842 which illustrates a flower and a seed pod growing from the same plant. In the meantime, I found a good picture of a lotus pod. http://pondforum.com/thewaterlilygallery.html Martha From sarthurmorris at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 03:05:47 2007 From: sarthurmorris at gmail.com (S.A. Morris) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 03:05:47 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers Message-ID: Big sunflowers require "a lot of water," but well drained soil. Cotton also likes a lot of water. http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7050/sunflowerih1.jpg I've looked at pictures of waterlily pads and the only one that strikes me of being anything similar to the vase paintings K5961, K7287, and K7980 is the Victoria Amazonica. Which grows around the Amazon River. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_amazonica Confronted with the question of what sunflowers have to do with the ancient Maya. Which is a very good question. But I have to laugh because I just happened upon those vase paintings a few days ago and only looked into the cultivation of sunflowers within the past 48 hours. Not much time invested for much research or to even come up with a half baked idea. For some things I'd just rather say the answer is 42. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Answer_to_Life%2C_the_Universe%2C_and_Everything Pulling from the recent papers I've devoured, the excessive drought factors of the Maya comes to mind. With plants like sunflowers being "water guzzling monsters," they would be on My list to discontinue growing. And use the Valued water for a more filling food like corn. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/292/5520/1367 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_1_159/ai_69658566 http://www.calacademy.org/calwild/2001spring/stories/horizons.html The list of sunflower references I recently posted [Three Sisters] show studies of separate cultivations in Mexico and the Tennessee area. Tobasco is where the 4000 BCE seeds were found, Tennessee had the next oldest. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v430/n6996/fig_tab/nature02710_F1.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v430/n6996/fig_tab/nature02710_F3.html I can't assume a long drought hit Mexico and a lot of the people packed up and moved to a better non-drought climate like Tennessee. Even though Tennessee is easy access from the Gulf of Mexico up the Mississippi River. But the cultivation of sunflowers continued to flourish there and apparently stopped in Mexico. I wrote to David L. Lentz who's undertaken the research of early cultivation of sunflowers in Mexico, and hope to get a reply. http://www.biology.uc.edu/faculty/Lentz/Lentz_home.htm And with trying to pull some of these puzzle pieces together, the one that struck me is the idea that a monster like the so called "waterlily monster" is required to be thought of only in 2D. I haven't even tried to make sense of all the Maya gods or monsters that are listed. But if an image of a monster, like the "waterlily monster," which is associated with a water environment, why not allow that environment of water to be mobile. Such as my statement of sunflowers being "water guzzling monsters?" It could possibly be looked at as the plants themselves being the monsters, greedy, hungry, voracious, and gluttonous in their water requirements. It's not like the ancient Maya could flip a switch and turn on the sprinklers. And if those ancient Maya were anything like present day Maya, then a sense of good humor might be factored in also for a particular painting on a bowl or vase. Arthur From wolfhawk at tds.net Sun Apr 29 07:13:33 2007 From: wolfhawk at tds.net (wolfhawk) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:13:33 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers References: Message-ID: <001901c78a57$ec4e22c0$6401a8c0@VGloer> Are the sunflowers in Mexico and the sunflowers in Tennessee genetically the same or are they really two different, but similar, plants? Is it possible that some seeds could have been carried by birds or migrating large mammals in ancient times and deposited a thousand miles or more away or more likely that there is no single point of origin? wolfhawk ----- Original Message ----- From: "S.A. Morris" To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:05 AM Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers Big sunflowers require "a lot of water," but well drained soil. Cotton also likes a lot of water. http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7050/sunflowerih1.jpg I've looked at pictures of waterlily pads and the only one that strikes me of being anything similar to the vase paintings K5961, K7287, and K7980 is the Victoria Amazonica. Which grows around the Amazon River. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_amazonica Confronted with the question of what sunflowers have to do with the ancient Maya. Which is a very good question. But I have to laugh because I just happened upon those vase paintings a few days ago and only looked into the cultivation of sunflowers within the past 48 hours. Not much time invested for much research or to even come up with a half baked idea. For some things I'd just rather say the answer is 42. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Answer_to_Life%2C_the_Universe%2C_and_Everything Pulling from the recent papers I've devoured, the excessive drought factors of the Maya comes to mind. With plants like sunflowers being "water guzzling monsters," they would be on My list to discontinue growing. And use the Valued water for a more filling food like corn. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/292/5520/1367 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_1_159/ai_69658566 http://www.calacademy.org/calwild/2001spring/stories/horizons.html The list of sunflower references I recently posted [Three Sisters] show studies of separate cultivations in Mexico and the Tennessee area. Tobasco is where the 4000 BCE seeds were found, Tennessee had the next oldest. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v430/n6996/fig_tab/nature02710_F1.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v430/n6996/fig_tab/nature02710_F3.html I can't assume a long drought hit Mexico and a lot of the people packed up and moved to a better non-drought climate like Tennessee. Even though Tennessee is easy access from the Gulf of Mexico up the Mississippi River. But the cultivation of sunflowers continued to flourish there and apparently stopped in Mexico. I wrote to David L. Lentz who's undertaken the research of early cultivation of sunflowers in Mexico, and hope to get a reply. http://www.biology.uc.edu/faculty/Lentz/Lentz_home.htm And with trying to pull some of these puzzle pieces together, the one that struck me is the idea that a monster like the so called "waterlily monster" is required to be thought of only in 2D. I haven't even tried to make sense of all the Maya gods or monsters that are listed. But if an image of a monster, like the "waterlily monster," which is associated with a water environment, why not allow that environment of water to be mobile. Such as my statement of sunflowers being "water guzzling monsters?" It could possibly be looked at as the plants themselves being the monsters, greedy, hungry, voracious, and gluttonous in their water requirements. It's not like the ancient Maya could flip a switch and turn on the sprinklers. And if those ancient Maya were anything like present day Maya, then a sense of good humor might be factored in also for a particular painting on a bowl or vase. Arthur _______________________________________________ Aztlan mailing list Aztlan at lists.famsi.org http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan From michaelruggeri at mac.com Sun Apr 29 08:55:05 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:55:05 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] NASA PHOTO OF CHANKILLO OBSERVATORY IN PERU Message-ID: Listeros, Nice NASA photo of Chankillo Observatory in Peru; http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3? img_id=17620 Mike Ruggeri Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/ index.html Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Mound Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ index.html From michaelruggeri at mac.com Mon Apr 30 00:34:13 2007 From: michaelruggeri at mac.com (michael ruggeri) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:34:13 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] MAY ANCIENT AMERICA AND MESOAMERICA LECTURES AND CONFERENCES Message-ID: Tuesday, May 1, 5:30 PM "The Huacas Sol and Luna Archaeological Complex: New Perspectives on Ancient Moche Society." Santiago Uceda, Universidad Nacional de Trujillo; and Jeffrey Quilter, Peabody Museum. Geological Lecture Hall, Harvard University 24 Oxford St. Cambridge, Mass. http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/calendar/lectures.html Thursday, May 3 "The cosmology of the Hopewell culture of Illimois." Southwest Archaeology Team Lecture Mesa Southwest Museum (M.S.M.), 53 N. Macdonald St., Mesa, AZ http://www.southwestarchaeologyteam.org/sched1.html Friday May 4th, 7:00 PM Pre-Columbian Society of Washington DC Lecture "The Dawn of Agriculture on Mexico's Southern Gulf Coast: Olmec Donald did not have a farm (at first)." Thomas W. Killion, Ph.D. Assoc. Professor - Department of Anthropology - Wayne State University The evolution of agricultural systems in Mesoamerica's tropical lowlands has always been a topic of much interest and debate for archaeologists. Unfortunately, until quite recently there has been little concrete data to resolve such simple questions as what did the Olmec eat and how did they making use of their lowland riverine landscape for settlement and subsistence? Thomas W. Killion, Assoc. Professor of anthropology at Wayne State University in and fellow in Pre-Columbian Studies at Dumbarton Oaks this spring looks at paleobotanical and settlement pattern data collected over the last decade to answer some of these questions. He reviews his own research in the Hueyapan region of southern Veracruz and compares those data with other projects in the region that are beginning to rework our understanding of food production and complex society in the Olmec heartland and beyond. Sumner School 17th and M Streets, across the street from National Geographic. Metro: Farragut North (on the red line) and Farragut West (on the Blue/Orange line). Washington, DC. http://www.pcswdc.org/ Saturday, May 5, 1:00 PM-4:00 PM The Cotsen Institute of Archaeology at UCLA will open its doors for the 11th annual Open House. "The Wonders of Ancient Peru" - "Three Years of UCLA Excavations at the Prehistoric Burial Tumulus of Lofk?nd in Albania" "Extreme Archaeology in Chile: The Tarapaca Valley Archaeological Project" - "UCLA in Egypt: a Myriad of Stories Told by Sand" - Professor Willeke Wendrich "Archaeology in East Africa from First Humans to Modern Times" - Dr. Ceri Ashley The Cotsen Institute of Archaeology UCLA Lenart Auditorium Fowler Building, A Level (310)206-8934 http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/ioa May 5 - 6, 2007 Arizona Archaeological Society Annual Meeting Saturday, May 5 8:00 am Registration begins/coffee 8:30 am Presidents Meetings 9:00 am General Business Meeting 11:30 am Brunch 1:00 pm Lecture by Dr. Patrick Lyons "The Jack and Vera Mills Collection: Unlocking the Secrets of the Salado Phenomenon" 2:00 pm Mills Collection Tour with Dr. Patrick Lyons 4:00 pm No Host Cocktail Hour Rock'n Horse Saloon 6:00 pm Dinner 7:30 pm Speaker Presentation: Dr. Jeff Reid "Personality and Power in Prehistory: Emil Haury and the Mogollon Controversy." Eastern Arizona College 615 N. Stadium Ave. Thatcher, Az 85552 http://www.azarchsoc.org/statemeetings.html Sunday, May 6, 4:00 pm Center for Desert Archaeology Annual Meeting Paul Reed will share insights into the latest research findings at Salmon Pueblo and place the site in its ancient Puebloan context in the Middle San Juan region. Please RSVP to Linda Pierce. Arizona Historical Society, 949 E. 2nd St., Tucson, Arizona. http://www.cdarc.org/pages/articles.php?req=read&article_id=447 May 7, 6:00 PM Dr. William Doelle President, Center for Desert Archaeology, "Will the Evidence for the 14th Century Hohokam Population Collapse Be Destroyed by the Modern Phoenix Population Explosion? This series is a benefit for the Archaeological Conservancy. Hotel Santa Fe, 1501 Paseo de Peralta. Santa Fe, New Mexico Connie at Southwestseminar at aol.com 466-2775 for additional information. SouthwestSeminars.org May 8, 7:00 PM Taos Archaeological Society "Findings of the Feather Cave Archaeological Complex Project," Scott Nicolay is an educator on the Navajo Nation in Shiprock with a passion for archaeology, caving, epigraphy and poetry. He will lecture on the an overview of cave research he performed in 2005 near Fort Stanton. Nicolay will discuss cave archaeology or "speleoarchaeology," human interaction with caves and cave environment. His visual program will show how numerous caves in the southwest were used as shrines or ceremonial sites, and how there has been little attempt to explore what has been described as a "cave cult" surviving during the long period from the Late Archaic to the present. Discussion will center around life in caves, flora, fauna, cave drawings and hand art, evidence of human use, underground lakes, diving in sinkholes, caving equipment and cave rescue. San Geronimo Lodge, 1101 Witt Road, Taos, New Mexico http://www.abqarchaeology.org/events.shtml May 10, 7:30 PM Pacific Coast Archaeology Society "Middle Holocene Archaeology on Santa Cruz Island: Investigating the Origins of Cultural Complexity in the Santa Barbara Channel" Irvine Ranch Water District, 15600 Sand Canyon Avenue (between the I-5 and I-405, next to the Post Office) Irvine, Calif. http://www.pcas.org/meetings.html Friday, May 11, 1:00 P.M. "Birds in Southwestern Rock Art" Cortez Cultural Center, 25 North Market Street Cortez, Arizona (970) 565-1151 http://www.co.blm.gov/ahc/spexbt.htm May 12, 1:30 PM Pre-Columbian Society of the University of Pennsylvania Museum Lecture Judi Storniolo, PhD; Drexel University The University of Pennsylvania Museum, Room 345, 3260 South Street, Philadelphia, PA http://www.precolumbian.org/ or http://www.museum.upenn.edu/ May 12, 11:00 AM Metropolitan Museum of Art Gallery Talk "The Mesoamerican Ballgame: A Game of Life and Death" The Mesoamerican ballgame is one of the cultural activities that defined and united the peoples of this region before the arrival of Europeans. Considers current theories about the ballgame and examines works in the collection that relate to the game and to the ballplayers. Gallery Talk Stanchion, Great Hall Metropolitan Museum New York City http://www.metmuseum.org/search/iquery.asp May 14, 6:00 PM Dr. Richard I. Ford Arthur F.Thurnau Professor of Anthropology Director, Ethnobotanical Laboratory, University of Michigan-Ann Arbor "Never Abandoned: Tewa Pueblos of the Rio Chama Drainage" This series is a benefit for the Archaeological Conservancy. Hotel Santa Fe, 1501 Paseo de Peralta. Santa Fe, New Mexico Connie at Southwestseminar at aol.com 466-2775 for additional information. SouthwestSeminars.org Monday, May 14, 7:00 PM Denver Chapter of the Colorado Archaeological Society Lecture Dr. Duncan Metcalf, University of Utah archaeologist, presenting current findings at the recently revealed and phenomenal Range Creek site. Ricketson Auditorium, Denver Museum of Nature and Science, City Park, 2001 Colorado Blvd. Enter through the west (Leprino Atrium) entrance. Tuesday, May 15, 7:30 PM "History and Myth about the Hohokam" As the archaeologists tell it, the ancient Hohokam culture of Tucson and southern Arizona ended something over 600 years ago. The creation, adventures, and destruction of this ancient people take up nearly all of what some call the mythology and others call the oral history of the Akimel O'odham (Pima) and Tohono O'odham (Papago) Indians, and also figure in the oral traditions of the Maricopa and Yavapai. According to the O'odham-told history, long ago two rival gods created two separate peoples on earth, one of the creator man- gods was murdered and resurrected by one of the created peoples, and eventually there was a conquest and "finishing off" of the second people by the first. In this program anthropologist Donald Bahr, Research Associate at the University of Arizona's Southwest Center, presents a summary of the O'odham oral tradition about the creations and the demise of the people archaeologists and O'odham alike refer to as the "Hohokam." Morris K. Udall Center, 7200 E. Tanque Verde Rd., Tucson, Ariz. http://www.oldpueblo.org/may.html Tuesday, May 15, 7:30-9 p.m "History and Myth about the Hohokam" Morris K. Udall Center, 7200 E. Tanque Verde Rd. Tucson, Ariz As the archaeologists tell it, the ancient Hohokam culture of Tucson and southern Arizona ended something over 600 years ago. The creation, adventures, and destruction of this ancient people take up nearly all of what some call the mythology and others call the oral history of the Akimel O'odham (Pima) and Tohono O'odham (Papago) Indians, and also figure in the oral traditions of the Maricopa and Yavapai. According to the O'odham-told history, long ago two rival gods created two separate peoples on earth, one of the creator man- gods was murdered and resurrected by one of the created peoples, and eventually there was a conquest and "finishing off" of the second people by the first. http://www.oldpueblo.org/january.html Thursday, May 17, 6:30 to 9:00 PM "Machu Picchu, The Lost City of the Incas" This vicarious journey to Machu Picchu begins by exploring the rise of the Inca, the nature of their state, religious system, and worldview. In the Andes, the footsteps of Hiram Bingham (the Yale scholar and adventurer who rediscovered Machu Picchu in 1911) are retraced, recounting his first encounter with Machu Picchu. Participants are then led through the site itself, as it has been restored, culminating in the Intiwatana, one of the most renowned sacred sites in the world. Along this journey through place, one also embarks on a journey of ideas, as the speculation, the mythologizing, and the scholarship on Machu Picchu are reviewed. George Scheper is a lecturer in interdisciplinary studies for the Master of Liberal Arts Program at Johns Hopkins University. He directed a National Endowment for the Humanities Institute on Andean Studies in Peru in 2005. Smithsonian Institute Seminar Washington DC http://residentassociates.org/ticketing//tickets/reserve.aspx? performanceNumber=82555 May 18-20, 2007 Colorado Rock Art Association Symposium "Rock Art in the Cultural Landscape: Colorado's Northwest" Craig, Colorado Symposium Coordinator: Mike Maselli 719.545.7720 mmaselli77 at yahoo.com http://www.coloradorockart.org/pages/symposium.html May 21, 7:30 PM The Arizona Archaeological and Historical Society Lecture "Shaping Stones, Shaping Pueblos: Architecture and Site Layout in Bandelier National Monument, New Mexico, A.D. 1150 to 1600" Duval Auditorium, University Medical Center, 1501 North Campbell Avenue (north of Speedway) Tucson, Arizona http://www.statemuseum.arizona.edu/aahs/lectures.shtml May 21, 6:00 PM Dr. John Ware, Executive Director, Amerind Foundation, "Eastern Pueblo Social History: Some Old and New Ideas" This series is a benefit for the Archaeological Conservancy. Hotel Santa Fe, 1501 Paseo de Peralta. Santa Fe, New Mexico Connie at Southwestseminar at aol.com 466-2775 for additional information. SouthwestSeminars.org May 23, 1:15 Gallery Talk "The Caribbean Before Columbus" Room 3 British Museum London, England http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/whatson/events/index.html May 24, 2007 - May 27 American Foreign Academic Research Conference "Maya at the Playa" Flagler Auditorium, Palm Coast, FL The 1st Annual Maya at the Playa Conference will provide the public hands-on experiences that are typically only available to the professional and academic communities. The four days of workshops, lectures, and performances will celebrate the great achievements of the Maya culture, civilization and Mesoamerican archaeology. Dr. Jaime J. Awe, Belize Institute of Archaeology Patricio Balona, Daytona Beach News-Journal Dr. Ramzy R. Barrois, Sorbonne University Dr. Arlen Chase, University of Central Florida Dr. Diane Zaino Chase, University of Central Florida Cameron S. Griffith, Indiana University Nicholas Hearth, University of California ? Riverside Christophe G.B. Helmke, University of Copenhagen Reiko Ishihara, University of California ? Riverside Dr. Jennifer C. Piehl, Sul Ross State University Dr. Robert Sitler, Stetson University Dr. Gabriel Wrobel, University of Mississippi Workshops include: Hieroglyphic Workshop - Robert Sitler, Christophe Helmke, Harri Kettunen, Ramzy Barrois Learn to read and write Maya hieroglyphics with some of the worlds leading educators of the maya culture at this exciting workshop. Mythology Workshop - Patricio Balona Mr. Balona is a well known storyteller and has lectured across the country, sharing the myths and legends of the Maya. Calendrics Workshop - Robert Sitler Participants will be awestruck as they learn the fascinating complexities of the Maya calendar. From the Maya Longcount to the Calendar Round, Dr. Robert Sitler will teach students every aspect of the Maya calendric system including the mysteries of 2012. Maya Ballgame Workshop - Ramzy Barrois Participants in this workshop will work with leading expert on the Mesoamerican ball game, Ramzy Barrois, to recreate an actual ballgame. After an introduction to "America's First Sport", participants will be fitted with reproductions of traditional ballplayer gear and proceed to simulate an actual game. Ceramic Figurine Workshop - Jaime Awe, Reiko Ishihara Participants will get hands on experience working with Jaime Awe and Reiko Ishihara recreating Maya ceramic figurine's. Flagler Auditorium, Palm Coast, FL http://www.mayaattheplaya.com/ May 25, 1:15 Gallery talk "Mesoamerican Shells Under the Microscope" Room 27 British Museum London, England http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/whatson/events/index.html Sunday, May 27, 2:00 pm "Chaco Expansion or Chaco Emulation? The Emergence of Aztec, Salmon, and other Great House Communities." Anasazi Heritage Center, 27501 Hwy 184 west of Dolores, Arizona (970) 882-5600 http://www.co.blm.gov/ahc/spexbt.htm May 28, 6:00 PM Sohtwest Seminars Lecture Anna Sofaer Founder, The Solstice Project "Mystery of Chaco Canyon" Hotel Santa Fe, 1501 Paseo de Peralta. Santa Fe, New Mexico Connie at Southwestseminar at aol.com 466-2775 for additional information. SouthwestSeminars.org Wednesday May 30, 11:00 am-12:00 pm "The Splendor of Sic?n" In 1991, Izumi Shimada and his excavation unearthed one of the richest Precolumbian tombs ever discovered in Peru. At the bottom of a dirt-filled shaft that was eleven meters deep, the archaeologists encountered five individuals entombed with over 1.2 tons of grave goods. A 30-40 year old man was buried in the center of the tomb. Dubbed the, Lord of Sic?n, by the Peruvian press, he was covered with a cinnabar, surrounded by gold offerings, and wore a funerary mask that was dazzling in both its beauty and technological mastery. In this presentation, Justin Jennings describes the tomb and its relationship to the rise and fall of Sic?n power. Royal Ontario Museum, Level 1B Signy and Cl?oph?e Eaton Theatre Enter via Loblaws Entrance at south end of building Toronto, Canada http://www.rom.on.ca/index.php Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and Lectures http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html From sylvia at famsi.org Mon Apr 30 10:38:29 2007 From: sylvia at famsi.org (sylvia at famsi.org) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:38:29 -0400 Subject: [Aztlan] Grantee reports--Mayapan, Middle Balsas, Balsas River Valley, San Lorenzo Message-ID: <007001c78b3d$9a6f2670$2501a8c0@sylvia> Hello Mesoamericanists, Newest grantee final reports at FAMSI website are: Mayapan's Effigy Censers: Iconography, Context, and External Connections (2005) by Susan Milbrath. http://www.famsi.org/reports/05025/index.html Middle Balsas Project: An Investigation of Pottery Functionality and Chronology (2006) by Jennifer Meanwell. http://www.famsi.org/reports/06021/index.html Nahuatl Cultural Encyclopedia: Botany and Zoology, Balsas River, Guerrero (2004) by Jonathan D. Amith. http://www.famsi.org/reports/03049/index.html Early and Middle Formative: San Lorenzo, Veracruz, Mexico (2001) by Anthony A. Vega. http://www.famsi.org/reports/00103/index.html Saludos, Sylvia Perrine, Archivist Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/index.html From sarthurmorris at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 13:11:05 2007 From: sarthurmorris at gmail.com (S.A. Morris) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:11:05 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers Message-ID: Link for sunflower pics didn't work like expected. This one will work. http://www.famsi.org/aztlan/uploads/Sunflower.jpg Showing (what looks to me to be) similar patterns between a sunflower and the waterlily paintings in K5961, K7287, and K7980. Arthur From sarthurmorris at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 14:34:40 2007 From: sarthurmorris at gmail.com (S.A. Morris) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:34:40 -0500 Subject: [Aztlan] Query: Sunflowers Message-ID: This chart shows the published data for what the authors are calling genetic drift. The wild populations of sunflowers (names in different colors) are branched, meaning they have more than one flower head. The domesticated strains (names in black) having one flower head. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v430/n6996/fig_tab/nature02710_F3.html This info is the latest I've found and comes from the article in Nature, International Weekly Journal of Science. www.nature.com You can get the full article at: Origin of extant domesticated sunflowers in eastern North America Origin of extant domesticated sunflowers in eastern North America Abigail V. Harter, Keith A. Gardner, Daniel Falush, David L. Lentz, Robert A. Bye & Loren H. Rieseberg 1. Department of Biology, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana 47405, USA 2. Peter Medawar Building for Pathogen Research, University of Oxford, South Parks Road, Oxford OX1 3SY, UK 3. Chicago Botanic Garden, 1000 Lake Cook Road, Glencoe, Illinois 60022, USA 4. Jard?n Bot?nico Exterior, Instituto de Biolog?a, UNAM, M?xico DF 04510, M?xico Correspondence to: Abigail V. Harter Email: avharter at bio.indiana.edu "Eastern North America is one of at least six regions of the world where agriculture is thought to have arisen wholly independently. The primary evidence for this hypothesis derives from morphological changes in the archaeobotanical record of three important crops?squash, goosefoot and sunflower?as well as an extinct minor cultigen, sumpweed. However, the geographical origins of two of the three primary domesticates?squash and goosefoot?are now debated, and until recently sunflower (*Helianthus annuus*L.) has been considered the only undisputed eastern North American domesticate. The discovery of 4,000-year-old domesticated sunflower remains from San Andr?s, Tabasco, implies an earlier and possibly independent origin of domestication in Mexico and has stimulated a re-examination of the geographical origin of domesticated sunflower. Here we describe the genetic relationships and pattern of genetic drift between extant domesticated strains and wild populations collected from throughout the USA and Mexico. We show that extant domesticates arose in eastern North America, with a substantial genetic bottleneck occurring during domestication." As for birds and animals transporting sunflower seeds long distances, I have no idea. What I understand, birds shell the seeds to eat the kernel, also small animals like rodents and ants. With larger migrating land mammals, other than man, I would suppose there could be a trail of sunflower seeds deposited by way of their excrement. But I'm not familiar with how far or how long these animals can travel between ingesting and expelling. Arthur