[Aztlan] Re:turtles
David and Fiona Gray
davefiona at yahoo.com
Wed Jul 4 19:38:08 CDT 2007
I seem to recall that the Olmecs had a lot of turtle references. I remember seeing images of people coming out of turtles . I can't remember in what context that i saw them. but the discussion on turtle brought them to mind.Could the turtles on the buildings mentioned be the residual influence of the Olmecs on the Maya
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Today's Topics:
1. MOCHE TOMB OLDER THAN "LORD OF SIPAN" TOMB FOUND (michael ruggeri)
2. Reply to Antonio Aimi and Emilia Perassi (michael ruggeri)
3. Turtle and tortoises (Michael J. Fitzpatrick)
4. SAB - call for papers (Sebastian Matteo)
5. Re: Turtle and tortoises (D. M. Urquidi)
6. Re: Turtle and tortoises (Barbara McKenzie)
7. Re: Turtle and tortoises (D. M. Urquidi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:11:28 -0500
From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] MOCHE TOMB OLDER THAN "LORD OF SIPAN" TOMB FOUND
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <5E0E826A-89C4-4268-8A0C-805C50011AAB at mac.com>
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Peru: Tomb believed to be older than "Señor de Sipan" found in
northern Peru
(LIP-ir) -- A team of archaeologists, led by Walter Alva, have
discovered the wooden tomb of another member of the Mochica culture's
elite - older than the "Señor de Sipan" (Lord of Sipan).
These findings belong to the Moche civilization, which ruled the
northern coast of Peru from the time of Christ to 800 AD, centuries
prior to the Incas.
Alva has stated that he and his team are investigating and within the
next few days will know the role of this noble in the Mochica society.
"We have found the tomb of a person that belonged to Mochica
nobility. Inside the coffin, discoveries of copper and copper-plated
decorations - covered in rust, demonstrate that this person was not a
Lord but was among the Mochica elite," Alva explained.
The archaeologist, who discovered the "Señor de Sipan" (Lord of
Sipan) in 1987, has said that this discovery will provide valuable
information about the Mochica culture. The mummy is estimated to be
1,800 years old, whereas it is estimated that the "Señor de Sipan"
was buried 1,700 years ago.
"The tomb is of a person that appears on Mochica artwork, which shows
he participated in important rituals. His headdress, which is V-
shaped, identifies him as such," explained Alva.
The archaeologist explained the value of this discovery, "This is the
tomb of a person we hadn't found, now we have the Mochica elite
complete."
40 workers and 6 archaeologists are taking part in this work funded
by the Ítalo Peruvian Fund and the government. This years budget is
600 thousand soles.
Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/
index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and
Lectures
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Mound
Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/
index.html
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 17:29:08 -0500
From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] Reply to Antonio Aimi and Emilia Perassi
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <5EF641CB-E677-4C03-945C-1879EE4B4DA5 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Antonio and Emilia,
In reply to your post;
Dear Michael,
we would like that you make three corrections:
1) in the archaeological and anthropological sections of project is
also involved the University of Milan.
2) All the budget of the project, which does not only deals with
archaeology, is about 3 million of USD.
3) The "unidad ejecutora" of the project is the Caritas del Peru
Antonio Aimi and Emilia Perassi
directors of the project Prodesipan
in the work areas of the University of Milan
I am glad you and the University of Milan are part of this project.
The article I was sending on was posted at http://www.livinginperu.com/
Please let them know you would like notice of your participation in
their project in their news articles on the site.
Mike Ruggeri
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:56:47 -0700
From: "Michael J. Fitzpatrick" <fitzesq at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Aztlan] Turtle and tortoises
To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
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At Uxmal there is a building with external turtle sculpture decor known as,
of all things, the House of the Turtles.
http://mayaruins.com/uxmal/j1_1708.html
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:xOTkGxeUaVQJ:www.buriedmirror.com/latest>
/2007/05/14/maya-symbology-turtle/+uxmal+turtle&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
Taube suggests that the turtle symbolism is associated with katun ending
periods.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0091-7710(198822)44%3A2%3C183%3AAPMKW%3E2.0
.CO%3B2-7
There are also several tortoise altars at Copan in Honduras.
Michael J. Fitzpatrick
152 North Third St., #800
San Jose, CA 95112
(408) 288-8013
Fax (408) 995-0531
Fitzesq at earthlink.net
"There is nothing so powerful as truth, and often nothing so strange."
Daniel Webster
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:19:42 -0700
From: "Ted Presler" <presrub at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] Zoomorphic Illustrations-Tortoise
To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <BAY105-DAV19DCD322A4619620FD118BBE090 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
At Quirigua, there is a carved stone showing a tortoise. Is the tortoise or
turtle commonly used in Mesoamerican cultures like the Maya and if so what
is it significance?
Do we see its use on ceramics as well as carvings?
Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated.
Thanks.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 11:42:02 +0200
From: "Sebastian Matteo" <nupulbalam at gmail.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] SAB - call for papers
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID:
<309d0bca0707040242j7b6862e8n39e344c2a02d10fe at mail.gmail.com>
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Dear all,
In April 2008, three days of conferences and symposiums will be organized by
the Société des Américanistes de Belgique (SAB-"Americanists Society of
Belgium"): "Ritual Americas, Configurations and recombinings of the devices
and behaviours ritual in the New World, in historical and contemporary
societies". For further information about the thematic and the way to
participate please visit our website at:
www.societedesamericanistes.be
We hope to see you there!
Sebastian Matteo
Webmaster and Committee member
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 21:58:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: "D. M. Urquidi" <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Turtle and tortoises
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <154357.27414.qm at web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
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Folks:
The Turtle information is important. First if it was part of the Summer Triangle (I believe the Three Hearthstones and the Three Marias, goddesses of Pulque and childbirth), then we have a breeding ground, or birthplace of the stars. BIrth takes place with moans, groans and screams of pain, on earth and apparently in the heavens. since the Turtle is also associated with thunder. Then on p 44 of the Nuttall in the left top corner, there is a "god" speaking fromt the heavens, and people can see the ball court (of the sky) in the river below.
Things like the above are illustrated on paper, the turtles on the House of the Turtles in Uxmal inform us that they are above the building (like in the Sky as a constellation that created music for some, words for others and a battle royal for still others or just plain thurnder) How many turtles are on the roof edges, Do they coincide with number of the stars in the Lyra formation? Each star is different in size, is that why the turtles on the building have different markings?
R. H. Allen in Star Names, etc. tells us that one astronomer noted that part of Cygnus seems to be oddly filled with many many red and yellow stars.
(My Note: As if it had once been an oven refer to the birth of the Fifth Sun and the "oven of the Gods that two sacrificial "gods" were to enter, and they did so erratically as if in conflict or battle with a fire source, to become the Sun and the Moon)
I would think under those circumstances that such a "turtle: display is not an ending of a katurn but the beginning of one.
Imagination? I doubt it. There are multiple "voice of god" expressions all around the world, multiple fire descriptions of major proportions also, many "suns" that burned the earth. Of the few mesoamerican codices that are available that seem to be legitimate, each detail such an event with very graphic picture battles and births.
The battles of 8-Deer is also fascinating since he is in full regalia with nose piece and all in the Nuttal long before he, as a child coming of age, acquires the nosepiece or even has his first battle and conquest. He also visits the Sun god in the sky with a 39 day journey, the length of degrees for a full eclipse of the sun.
Dea
At Uxmal there is a building with external turtle sculpture decor known as,
of all things, the House of the Turtles.
http://mayaruins.com/uxmal/j1_1708.html
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:xOTkGxeUaVQJ:www.buriedmirror.com/latest>
/2007/05/14/maya-symbology-turtle/+uxmal+turtle&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
Taube suggests that the turtle symbolism is associated with katun ending
periods.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0091-7710(198822)44%3A2%3C183%3AAPMKW%3E2.0
.CO%3B2-7
There are also several tortoise altars at Copan in Honduras.
Michael J. Fitzpatrick
D. M. Urquidi
P. O. Box 49485
Austin, Texas 78765
http://www.mayalords.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 08:55:47 -0400
From: Barbara McKenzie <barbara.mckenzie at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Turtle and tortoises
To: "Michael J. Fitzpatrick" <fitzesq at earthlink.net>
Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <246CE748-6A0A-4D8D-83BC-C5CF3DFCECF5 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Jul 3, 2007, at 7:56 PM , Michael J. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> There are also several tortoise altars at Copan in Honduras.
There are several photos of the tortoise altar at Copan starting at:
http://mayaruins.com/copan/a1_1114.html
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 05:27:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: "D. M. Urquidi" <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Turtle and tortoises
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <861907.96099.qm at web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Follks
With all the talk about turtles, one would be remiss
to skip over Justin's vases.
K634 shows not the earth, but an ahaw split with a
"god" with an atl (?) emerging from it in the
framework of flames, not veggies.
k4537 shows turtles in fire, not water.
K5457 shows that the turtle is above (in the sky?) as
a noise maker, i.e. the bell feet.
and K7287 turtles are shows as with death heads and
jawbones. A real disaster occurred.
There are others, but these seems to say more than
they do.
Dea
P.S. If the numbers are wrong (I wrote them in the
dark) Justin has 10 turtle vase units.
D. M. Urquidi
P. O. Box 49485
Austin, Texas 78765
http://www.mayalords.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
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