[Aztlan] Re A Maya Puzzle (Justin Kerr)
Michael J. Fitzpatrick
fitzesq at earthlink.net
Fri Nov 23 13:21:55 CST 2007
Justin, I think I can see octopi, squid, a fish, perhaps a caiman eating a
squid, and an eel or sea snake.
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Dear Friends,
I am not a great fan of puzzles but I just posted a rollout of an incised
Maya vase. The URL is below.
If you are interested, can you find all the creatures swimming around in
this view of the "Dark Pond" or put another way, the Otherworld Sea?
I have not added any of my own comments yet, I await your input.
http://research.famsi.org/kerrmaya.html
Enter 8948
Michael J. Fitzpatrick
152 North Third St., #800
San Jose, CA 95112
(408) 288-8013
Fax (408) 995-0531
Fitzesq at earthlink.net
"A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you."
Ramsey Clark
-----Original Message-----
From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
On Behalf Of aztlan-request at lists.famsi.org
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 10:00 AM
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Subject: Aztlan Digest, Vol 24, Issue 22
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Today's Topics:
1. Grantee Reports & Traducciones en Espanol (sylvia at famsi.org)
2. MA. A Maya Puzzle (Justin Kerr)
3. Is there an Aztec Lupercal? (Diehl, Richard)
4. A RESPONSE TO RICHARD DIEHL ON ARTIFICIAL CAVES (michael ruggeri)
5. IN FURTHER RESPONSE TO RICHARD DIEHL-ACATZINGO VIEJO
(michael ruggeri)
6. Re: A RESPONSE TO RICHARD DIEHL ON ARTIFICIAL CAVES
(D. M. Urquidi)
7. A Quetzal on Turkey day (Wayne Van Kirk)
8. Re: A RESPONSE TO RICHARD DIEHL ON ARTIFICIAL CAVES
(Miguel Covarrubias)
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:13:22 -0500
From: <sylvia at famsi.org>
Subject: [Aztlan] Grantee Reports & Traducciones en Espanol
To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <009201c82c72$96a1d020$2301a8c0 at sylvia>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hello Mesoamericanists,
Newest research reports posted at FAMSI website include:
Ritual Diversity and Social Identities: A Study of Mortuary Behaviors at
Teotihuacan, Mexico (2006) by Sarah C. Clayton.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06046/index.html
In the Shadow of Popocatepetl: Archaeological Survey and Mapping at
Tlaxcala, Mexico (2006) by Lane F. Fargher.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06082/index.html
Ethnicity and Isotopes at Mayapan (2005) by Lori E. Wright.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05068/index.html
Informes de investigacion de concesionarios traducidos del Ingles al
Espanol:
Investigaciones Arqueologicas en las Cuevas Candelaria y La Lima, Alta
Verapaz, Guatemala (2003) por Brent Woodfill.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/02083es/index.html
Uso Ritual de la Ceramica en el Preclasico Temprano y Medio en los Sitios de
Blackman Eddy y Cahal Pech, Belice (2003) por M. Kathryn Brown.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/02066es/index.html
Proyecto de Rescate en Naranjo: Nuevos Datos de la Guatemala del Preclasico
(2006) por Barbara Arroyo.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06109es/index.html
Investigacion Bioarqueologica de la Estructura de la Antigua Poblacion de
Mayapan (2005) por Stanley Serafin.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05033es/index.html
La Tecnologia de los Antiguos Mosaicos Mesoamericanos: Una Investigacion
Experimental de Super Pegamentos Alternativos (2006) por Frances F. Berdan.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06015es/index.html
Reconocimiento arqueologico en Tixan: exploraciones en el sur del Parque
Nacional de la Sierra del Lacandon, Peten, Guatemala (2005) por Andrew K.
Scherer.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/05027es/index.html
Saludos,
Sylvia Perrine, Archivist
Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc.
http://www.famsi.org/index.html
http://www.famsi.org/spanish/
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:21:00 -0500
From: "Justin Kerr" <mayavase at verizon.net>
Subject: [Aztlan] MA. A Maya Puzzle
To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <007901c82c73$a6c18260$6701a8c0 at justnew>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Friends,
I am not a great fan of puzzles but I just posted a rollout of an incised
Maya vase. The URL is below.
If you are interested, can you find all the creatures swimming around in
this view of the "Dark Pond" or put another way, the Otherworld Sea?
I have not added any of my own comments yet, I await your input.
http://research.famsi.org/kerrmaya.html
Enter 8948
Good Hunting,
Justin
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:48:56 -0600
From: "Diehl, Richard" <rdiehl at as.ua.edu>
Subject: [Aztlan] Is there an Aztec Lupercal?
To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID:
<F29D7F20EA69794AB316FEE1FAA6B4A101045739 at ua-mail5.asnet.ua-net.ua.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hola Listeros,
Italian archaeologists made international news with yesterday's announcement
that they located the Roman Lupercal. This artificial cave, decorated with
lavish mosaics and an image of the Roman imperial eagle, was commissioned by
Augustus Caesar, Rome's first official emperor, as part of his palace. This
sanctuary, constructed some 700-800 years after the mythical events
surrounding Rome's founding, represents the cave where the she-wolf suckled
Romulus and Remus, the mythical founder-twins of Rome. Apparently Augustus
fostered the belief that he was a descendent of the twins and was
"re-founding" the city in some great cycle of time. We can never know
whether Augustus and his contemporaries really accepted the R and R story as
myth or history but the Lupercal certainly suggests they appreciated its
value as a validating origin story (see Mary Beard's November 20 blog in the
on-line London Times for the opinion of an expert).
Now, just what does this have to do with Mesoamerica and the Aztecs? Well
no, I am not suggesting that sea-faring Romans crossed the Atlantic and
planted alien ideas in the head of clue-less Indians on the coast of
Veracruz. However Mesoamericans had their own well-developed beliefs about
the importance of caves in their history and religion. This leads me to
ponder the possibility that certain Aztec emperors created artificial caves
as replicas of their equally mythical Chicomost?c, birth-cave of their
ancestors, as places of worship. Perhaps not, but if they did, the
archaeologist in me naturally asks where they might be. In the Tenochtitl?n
palace complexes? At Teotihuacan? At Tula, where legend has it that the most
sacred of Aztec relics were buried immediately after the Spanish sacking of
Tenochtitlan? In some secluded natural cave on an inaccessible mountain top
overlooking the Basin of Mexico?
We may never know but probing re-readings of the 16th century Native and
Spanish accounts, along with some good old foot archaeology, might shed some
light on the topic. Any thoughts?
Saludos,
Dick Diehl
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 05:21:04 -0600
From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] A RESPONSE TO RICHARD DIEHL ON ARTIFICIAL CAVES
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <C4493A6B-79D5-4453-940F-373074D89B57 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
In response to Richard Diehl's pondering as to whether or not the Aztecs
ever created an artificial cave to represent the cave of Chicomoztoc, the
Aztec site at Malinalco is a perfect example of an artificial cave built by
the Aztecs right into a mountain with an inner chamber where they carved
jaguar and eagle seats out of the rock. Could this cave site have been in
some way a reference to the tale of Chicomoztoc?
The URL below from Antonio Rafael de la Cova's site has some good pictures
of Malinalco.
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/malinalco.htm
Mike Ruggeri
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:04:05 -0600
From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] IN FURTHER RESPONSE TO RICHARD DIEHL-ACATZINGO VIEJO
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <EB02BB43-E8C4-4057-B683-D7FC8844E910 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Richard and fellow listeros,
In further response to Richard Diehl's query, the site of Acatzingo Viejo
may have been a place where Nahua people venerated the origin story as 7
caves were found there with ritual objects within them.
This article from Science News Online mentions that site;
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20020518/bob9.asp
Manuel Aguilar et al wrote an article for a book called "In the Maw of the
Earth Monster" about the Acatzingo Viejo site. Here is the URL to that
article;
http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/maguila2/Publications/Acatzingo%
20Caves.pdf
If that page does not open for you then you can go to Manuel Aguilar's web
page and pick up the article there;
http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/maguila2/
So yes indeed, the Acatzingo Viejo site may very well be the Aztec
equivalent of the cave of Romulus and Remus in Rome.
Mike Ruggeri
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 05:47:58 -0800 (PST)
From: "D. M. Urquidi" <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] A RESPONSE TO RICHARD DIEHL ON ARTIFICIAL CAVES
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <685981.17056.qm at web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Folks:
The picture of the interior of the cave with its "seats" and one person
standing in the doorway. . . .
It seems that the person is dwarfed by the "seats" and the central stone
bird. How did rulers sit on the seats? cross-legged? I assume so since the
heads would not allow legs to hang over the edge very well.
It seems to me that the "seats" may have had a different purpose if they are
so huge. . . don't know.
Dea
D. M. Urquidi
P. O. Box 49485
Austin, Texas 78765
http://www.mayalords.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:05:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Wayne Van Kirk <wvk at swbell.net>
Subject: [Aztlan] A Quetzal on Turkey day
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <894335.6932.qm at web82214.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEn8MT7gX38&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUOzHlb6DSk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqEPeIgUIEk&eurl=http://acusticaweb.com/index
.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=89&Itemid=1
Wayne Van Kirk
http://www.ianlawton.com/pa1.htm
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:12:47 -0600
From: "Miguel Covarrubias" <migcov at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] A RESPONSE TO RICHARD DIEHL ON ARTIFICIAL CAVES
To: "michael ruggeri" <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Cc: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID:
<b3a976900711220712tafaa4b8p47c65093dc9d28a1 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
If not entirely artificial, there's a cave carved by Aztecs at Barranca
Moctezuma, in Cerro de la Estrella, Iztapalapa, Mexico City, consisting of
two chambers separated by a basalt wall with a sorrounding bench.
2007/11/22, michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>:
>
> In response to Richard Diehl's pondering as to whether or not the
> Aztecs ever created an artificial cave to represent the cave of
> Chicomoztoc, the Aztec site at Malinalco is a perfect example of an
> artificial cave built by the Aztecs right into a mountain with an
> inner chamber where they carved jaguar and eagle seats out of the
> rock. Could this cave site have been in some way a reference to the
> tale of Chicomoztoc?
>
> The URL below from Antonio Rafael de la Cova's site has some good
> pictures of Malinalco.
>
> http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/malinalco.htm
>
> Mike Ruggeri
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
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> Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php
>
>
>
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