[Aztlan] Aztlan Digest, Vol 24, Issue 28 Maya measurements
rod44 at comcast.net
rod44 at comcast.net
Thu Nov 29 17:21:41 CST 2007
Being an engineer, I looked into this years ago. I wrote a short article on it for the IMS Newsletter of July 2004 called Maya Measurements. As far as I know, at least for northern Yucatan, the common unit was the zapal (about 5 ft.) or the distance between outstreched hands of a short man (similar in concept to the British fathom) this was divided into 16 kabs of about 3.75 in each (about the width oh a hand closed) and this into 9 zools of about 1 cm (or a finger width).
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Classic Maya Unit of Length (Lawrence Lo)
> 2. Re: Classic Maya Unit of Length (David Hixson)
> 3. Re: Classic Maya Unit of Length (D. M. Urquidi)
> 4. MA. A Maya Puzzle (paul schoenmakers)
> 5. Re: Classic Maya Unit of Length (Jules Siegel)
> 6. Re: Classic Maya Unit of Length (Bob Patten)
> 7. Re: Classic Maya Unit of Length (David Hixson)
> 8. Re: Classic Maya Unit of Length (Amapohuani at aol.com)
> 9. Re: Classic Maya Unit of Length (David Hixson)
> 10. Re: Classic Maya Unit of Length (Hube Smith)
> 11. Re: Classic Maya Unit of Length (David Hixson)
>
>
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> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:21:22 -0800
> From: "Lawrence Lo" <lorentz at cs.stanford.edu>
> Subject: [Aztlan] Classic Maya Unit of Length
> To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <200711281721.lASHLNss030983 at www.famsi.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Estimados listeros,
>
> I have a question. Does anybody know of what units of measuring length the
> Classic Maya employed? And if so, do we know the conversion to modern
> units?
>
> Thank you!
>
> Larry
> ______________________________
> Lawrence Lo
> www.ancientscripts.com <http://www.ancientscripts.com/>
> Ancient Scripts of the World
>
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:33:53 -0800 (PST)
> From: David Hixson <aztlandave at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Classic Maya Unit of Length
> To: Lawrence Lo <lorentz at cs.stanford.edu>, aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Message-ID: <939012.57924.qm at web37005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> This is an excellent question. I have read documents from the early colonial
> period, written in Maya, that measure land in units of "Mecates" (such as wills
> and land deeds). This unit is still used today for measuring land area, and is
> translated as a 20 x 20 meter unit of space. However, I do not know whether
> this is a truly Maya unit of measurement, or if it is something devised during
> the conquest to mitigate between the Old World and New World systems of
> measurement.
>
> -Dave
>
> Lawrence Lo <lorentz at cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> Estimados listeros,
>
> I have a question. Does anybody know of what units of measuring length the
> Classic Maya employed? And if so, do we know the conversion to modern
> units?
>
> Thank you!
>
> Larry
> ______________________________
> Lawrence Lo
> www.ancientscripts.com
> Ancient Scripts of the World
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php
>
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:05:13 -0800 (PST)
> From: "D. M. Urquidi" <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Classic Maya Unit of Length
> To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <285845.24392.qm at web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Estimados listeros,
>
> > I have a question. Does anybody know of what units
> > of measuring length the
> > Classic Maya employed?
>
> Thor Anderson in his Thesis called Kruston; A Study of
> House and Home in a Maya Village (1975)
> learned the Maya methods of measuring and building a
> house.
>
> >From "four inch worm-like strides by the thumb to
> index finger" they were able to measure post holes.
> Translated it was 60 centifmeters (of a man's hand).
> Three fingers shorter for a beam was equal to six
> centimeters. To "square" the roof beams, they stepped
> out a length of rope then folded it in half, cutting
> it and then used each piece to measure the diagonals
> in the Z'am te" the tie beam in the center..
>
> The houses were rarely larger than seven meters to a
> side.
>
> So much for measurements. These are just basics for
> housebuilding a long time agol. Now, it is probably
> all metric or feet.
>
> dea
>
>
> D. M. Urquidi
> P. O. Box 49485
> Austin, Texas 78765
> http://www.mayalords.org
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> ____
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> with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
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> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:51:55 +0100
> From: "paul schoenmakers" <pljschoenmakers at casema.nl>
> Subject: [Aztlan] MA. A Maya Puzzle
> To: <Aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <001a01c83200$83065c00$3f2c5653 at FUJI>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hello all,
>
> Although still a (very interested) amateur I was fascinated by Justin Kerr's
> "puzzle" of the Dark Pond or Otherworld Sea on Maya vase 8948. As an
> experienced illustrator I saw it as an challenge in trying to touch up this
> rollout. Perhaps the 'swimming creatures' are better to identify this way.
> Unfortunately I could not much touch up the Primary Standard Sequence (PSS)
> but maybe it is for some of the experts enough to decipher it. Please let us
> know what you can make of it.
>
> The result is available at:
>
> http://research.famsi.org/aztlan/uploads/K8948-LINE-SMALL.jpg
>
> For those who are interested in the way I have done this 'touching up':
>
> Step 1 - For the first step I used the graphics software package Adobe
> Photoshop CS2. First I did resize the picture (vase 8948 from Justin Kerr)
> by increasing it with 300%. Then with the tool adjustments and in there
> 'Brightness/Contrast' and 'Replace Color' I brightened up de colors and made
> the contrast between light en dark stronger. Some of the unwanted and
> disturbing colors I have replaced by a neutral yellow color. The picture
> become now more uniform in color (in this case yellowish) and the lines
> darker, sharper and therefore more visible (the latter also through the
> contrast adjustment).
>
> Step 2 - From the in step 1 adjusted picture I made een A3-colorprint on a
> A3-printer HP Deskjet 1280. This bigger format is very useful because the
> lines are better distinguished from each other and therefore more easy to
> work with im the third step.
>
> Step 3 - This third step takes een lot of time and a steady hand. First I
> redraw the (as good as) visible lines with a very thin pencil (0,3 mm).
> After this it becomes more clear were lines are disappeared or unclear. The
> trick now is these disappeared/unclear lines to fill in. A combination of
> knowing and feeling.
>
> Step 4 - In this step I have the picture with de greyisch pencil lines
> carefully redrawed with a very thin inkpen (0,18 mm Rotring Rapidograph).
> After I like the result of this I make the thin lines thicker and good
> visible with a thin black fineliner (0,3 mm).
>
> Step 5 - Now the picture must become again digital. With a flatbed color
> scanner (A4) I have made two scans on 500 dpi (left and right side).
>
> Step 6 - For this final step I return to Photoshop and import and place the
> two digital scans together in one empty (white) image, merge them and save
> it as one image. Then I open this image (still very large) en decrease it
> with 75% and save it again.
>
> If anyone needs help with the making of this kind of images please let me
> know, I'm glad to help you. I love this kind of creative work.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Paul Schoenmakers
>
> Zoetermeer, Netherlands, pljschoenmakers at casema.nl
>
>
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> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:17:54 -0600
> From: Jules Siegel <jules at cafecancun.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Classic Maya Unit of Length
> To: David Hixson <aztlandave at yahoo.com>, aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Message-ID: <474E0532.8040007 at cafecancun.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> David Hixson wrote:
> > This is an excellent question. I have read documents from the early colonial
> period, written in Maya, that measure land in units of "Mecates" (such as wills
> and land deeds). This unit is still used today for measuring land area, and is
> translated as a 20 x 20 meter unit of space. However, I do not know whether
> this is a truly Maya unit of measurement, or if it is something devised during
> the conquest to mitigate between the Old World and New World systems of
> measurement.
> When I lived in Yelapa, Jalisco, mecate was a term used to measure area.
> A mecate is a length of rope. The term is still used in equestrian
> nomenclature.
>
> <http://www.uady.mx/sitios/editoria/biblioteca-virtual/miscelanea/m.html>
> BIBLIOTECA VIRTUAL DE LA YUCATANEIDAD
>
> 423. MECATE.
> Este nahuatlismo viene del n?huatl MECATL. Tal vez deriva de METL,
> maguey (o agave), y - CATL, una desinencia sustantivizante del verbo
> CA estar, aludiendo a que la fibra de la que se hacen los mecates
> est? en el maguey, es decir, "lo que est? en el maguey" (Leander,
> 133). ?C?mo vino a ser este t?rmino nombre de una medida de longitud
> y de superficie en la pen?nsula de Yucat?n? Probablemente los
> tlaxcaltecas, aztecas y/o chichimecas que vinieron con D. Francisco
> de Montejo "El Mozo" a la conquista de Yucat?n la traer?an; el
> MECATE (hilo de fibra de henequ?n, tambi?n ) es una medida de
> longitud de 20 metros; cuando se trata de medir superficies, el
> MECATE es un cuadrado de veinte por veinte metros, es decir 400
> metros cuadrados; desde entonces las milpas se midieron por MECATES,
> usando no precisamente un mecate de fibra de henequ?n, sino una vara
> de longitud invariable, la cual no pod?a cambiar mediante tensi?n o
> distensi?n como en el caso de una soga o mecate. ( Y.K'AAN).
>
> Briefly, this says that it is a nahuatlism derived from MECATL, which
> possibly derives from METL, maguey or agave, and CATL, from CA, to be.
> The item speculates that it was brought to the Yucatan Peninsula by
> tlaxcaltecas, aztecas and or chichimecas who came with Francisco de
> Montejo. Referring to area, a mecate is 20 x 20 meters, and it is today
> measured with a pole rather than a rope.
>
>
>
>
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>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:10:09 -0700
> From: "Bob Patten" <knapperbob at idcomm.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Classic Maya Unit of Length
> To: "Lawrence Lo" <lorentz at cs.stanford.edu>, <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <004c01c83214$03043040$069e3040 at bob>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> The Maya elite used 1.144 mm per unit to incorporate special values in
> sacred objects. Synodic cycles are frequently recorded by dimensions. At the
> site plan level, multiples of 360, 365, 584 and 949 are common. Body part
> equivalences were adopted for measures of convenience much as we use a pace
> to represent a yard.
>
> Bob Patten
> http://www.stonedagger.com
>
>
>
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> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:51:34 -0800 (PST)
> From: David Hixson <chunchucmil at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Classic Maya Unit of Length
> To: Jules Siegel <jules at cafecancun.com>, aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Message-ID: <337981.82288.qm at web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Thanks, Jules!!
>
> I had guessed that the Mecate was likely a Nahuatl
> loan word (since the "ate" endings are often
> hispanicized "atl" endings). But hadn't ever come
> across that reference. Thanks a bunch.
>
> The Mecate (as a 20 x 20 meter unit of area) is still
> being used by Maya farmers throughout the northern
> Maya lowlands. In fact, we adopted this unit of
> measurement for mapping the ancient Maya city of
> Chunchucmil. Much of the land around the ancient city
> had previously been measured by the henequen hacienda
> owners, and mojoneras (stone markers) were still erect
> at the corner of each mecate.
>
> As surveyors, all we needed to do was to re-erect
> those that had fallen and apply grid numbers to them,
> then map all ancient structures within each mecate.
> When a milpa did not have any mojoneras, I worked with
> Maya farmers to establish a mecate grid (occasionally
> using the pole technique you mentioned).
>
> Eventually the maps of each plantel were stitched
> together using high resolution GPS data and remote
> sensing image processing software in order to correct
> for variations of the grids.
>
> Thought you might get a kick out of the merging of
> centuries-old technology with the latest remote
> sensing technology to map over 9 km2 of ancient
> settlement.
>
> -Dave
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> ____
> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
> with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
>
>
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>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:32:46 EST
> From: Amapohuani at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Classic Maya Unit of Length
> To: chunchucmil at yahoo.com, jules at cafecancun.com,
> aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Message-ID: <d4a.1979466b.3480359e at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> Estimados Listeros:
>
> "Mecates": plural of hispanized mecate. From Nahuatl "Mecatl. cordel, o soga,
> o a?ote de cordeles" (fray Alonso de Molina, VOCABULARIO [etc.], 2004 edition
> of the 1571 edition, Editorial Porr?a, Mexico, from 55r on the
> Nahuatl-to-Spanish side. Other derivations from the same page: "Mecania. nino.
> ahorcarse"
> [literally, 'to apply a rope to oneself/to use a rope on onseelf'] and
> "Mecania. nite. ahorcar a otro" [literally, 'to apply a rope to someone; to use
> a
> rope on someone else']. It can be found elsewhere in the VOCAB as well.
>
> Ye ixquich.
> Barry
>
>
> In a message dated 11/29/07 7:18:58 AM, chunchucmil at yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> > Thanks, Jules!!
> >
> > I had guessed that the Mecate was likely a Nahuatl
> > loan word (since the "ate" endings are often
> > hispanicized "atl" endings).? But hadn't ever come
> > across that reference.? Thanks a bunch.
> >
> > The Mecate (as a 20 x 20 meter unit of area) is still
> > being used by Maya farmers throughout the northern
> > Maya lowlands.? In fact, we adopted this unit of
> > measurement for mapping the ancient Maya city of
> > Chunchucmil.? Much of the land around the ancient city
> > had previously been measured by the henequen hacienda
> > owners, and mojoneras (stone markers) were still erect
> > at the corner of each mecate.
> >
> > As surveyors, all we needed to do was to re-erect
> > those that had fallen and apply grid numbers to them,
> > then map all ancient structures within each mecate.
> > When a milpa did not have any mojoneras, I worked with
> > Maya farmers to establish a mecate grid (occasionally
> > using the pole technique you mentioned).
> >
> > Eventually the maps of each plantel were stitched
> > together using high resolution GPS data and remote
> > sensing image processing software in order to correct
> > for variations of the grids.
> >
> > Thought you might get a kick out of the merging of
> > centuries-old technology with the latest remote
> > sensing technology to map over 9 km2 of ancient
> > settlement.
> >
> > -Dave
> >
> >
> > ? ? ?
> >
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> ____
> > Be a better sports nut!? Let your teams follow you
> > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.?
> > http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
> > _______________________________________________
> > Aztlan mailing list
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
> > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> > Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> **************************************
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> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:50:55 -0800 (PST)
> From: David Hixson <chunchucmil at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Classic Maya Unit of Length
> To: Amapohuani at aol.com, jules at cafecancun.com, aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Message-ID: <19151.16058.qm at web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I do find it interesting that the first widely shared
> unit of measuring area in Yucatan and elsewhere in
> Mesoamerica, the mecate, was vigesimal (20 x 20
> meters). It certainly is a logical merge of old world
> and new world systems for calculations, which may be
> one reason why it survives to the present day.
>
> -Dave
>
> __________________________________________________
> David Hixson
> Ph.D. Candidate
> Tulane Anthropology
> chunchucmil at yahoo.com
> www.mesoamerican-archives.com
>
> "Nothing more useless than a bored archaeologist."
> -Douglas Adams
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> ____
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:55:25 -0800
> From: "Hube Smith" <husmith at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Classic Maya Unit of Length
> To: "David Hixson" <aztlandave at yahoo.com>, "Lawrence Lo"
> <lorentz at cs.stanford.edu>, <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <003b01c832a0$41f090a0$6501a8c0 at Smithfamily>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Just as a side note: The Maya of today remain dedicated (and I do not use
> the term lightly) to measurement when
>
> it comes to their agricultural lands. Moreover, the mecate remains
> fundamental.
>
>
> We were amazed to find that a field (or milpa) was carefully mesaure WHILE
> THE LAND ITSELF WAS SCRUB
>
> JUNGLE. Thus, square mecates were measured and carefully marked with stone
> cairns by dragging mecate-length
>
> poles through dense underbrush. The work was, of course, arduous in the
> extreme. Only after these exacting measurements
>
> were complete was the jungle felled and burned.
>
>
> When we suggested that the measurement might be less laborious if the scrub
> was felled, burned, and subsequently
>
> measured, we were regarded with amused tolerance.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Hixson" <aztlandave at yahoo.com>
> To: "Lawrence Lo" <lorentz at cs.stanford.edu>; <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Classic Maya Unit of Length
>
>
> > This is an excellent question. I have read documents from the early
> > colonial period, written in Maya, that measure land in units of "Mecates"
> > (such as wills and land deeds). This unit is still used today for
> > measuring land area, and is translated as a 20 x 20 meter unit of space.
> > However, I do not know whether this is a truly Maya unit of measurement,
> > or if it is something devised during the conquest to mitigate between the
> > Old World and New World systems of measurement.
> >
> > -Dave
> >
> > Lawrence Lo <lorentz at cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > Estimados listeros,
> >
> > I have a question. Does anybody know of what units of measuring length the
> > Classic Maya employed? And if so, do we know the conversion to modern
> > units?
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> > Larry
> > ______________________________
> > Lawrence Lo
> > www.ancientscripts.com
> > Ancient Scripts of the World
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Aztlan mailing list
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
> > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> > Click to view Calendar of Events
> > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try
> > it now.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Aztlan mailing list
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
> > Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> > Click to view Calendar of Events
> > http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:20:25 -0800 (PST)
> From: David Hixson <aztlandave at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Classic Maya Unit of Length
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Message-ID: <955314.43593.qm at web37013.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Hube Smith sent this vignette about how land was measured and felled by mecate
> during his project documenting modern Maya practices for "Living Maya":
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Yes, that whole process is in our series, Living Maya. The act is called (as
> you know) the brecha and it is preceded by prayers and offerings to the various
> duenos of the land, the balames, and the Catholic pantheon. It is, according
> the the literature I know, an asking of permission to move the land from the the
> spiritual realm to man's use. When we first translated the prayers, we found
> them laced with references to various saints. Aha, we thought, rampant
> syncretism. But upon further questioning, we found the saints named were the
> names of surrounding ranchos. The prayers were to the duenos of those
> surrounding lands but there was no way of naming them without using their
> names--saints' names.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> End of Aztlan Digest, Vol 24, Issue 28
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