[Aztlan] RE : Aztlan Digest, Vol 29, Issue 2

Thu Apr 3 04:28:40 CDT 2008

Hi all,

  About the 2155-1936 BCE gold and turquoise. This seems to be a "Western discussion" again, if I may say so. Looking at the gold... and NOT at the turquoise...

  Pure gold is to be found in Bolivia and Peru, but turquoise isn't. That's one reason why I find the turquoise much more interesting than the gold. According to http://www.mindat.org/index.php ("the largest mineral database and mineralogical reference website on the internet") the only turquoise mine in the region is the Chilean Chuquicamata mine (Antofagasta region). Chalcosiderite (closely related to turquoise) however is present in Bolivia. 

  My question would be: is this turquoise, really turquoise (or some other greenstone)?

  But it is even more interesting if we look at other archaeological findings. For example the well known Mochica items of turquoise and Lapis Lazuli. Again, these materials could only have come from Chile because that's the only place in South America (apart from Brasil) were these minerals are to be found. 

  A few years ago a news item about an archaeological site in southern Ecuador reached the public (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-05/idrp-hsa051204.php). It appears that these people living here (the site is about 4000 years old according to the investigators) also got their hands on the turquoise mineral. Again: did it come from Chile? Is it really turquoise or another greenstone?

  We all know of the turquoise route from the American Southwest to Mexico. It seems however that there is a (much older) (but how old?) Southamerican equivalent of this. And this again brings me at the Andean-Mexico contacts... The first turquoise in Mexico appears in Oaxaca, Guerrero, Jalisco, etc (Weigand, Mountjoy, and others), centuries before the people in Arizona/New Mexico started mining. 

  Does this mean (see Marcos) that South Americans brought the first turquoise to Mexico and that Mesoamericans later found mines closer to home?

  What do you all think of this?

  Does anyone know if the reported turquoises really are turquoise and not some other (local)greenstone? If they're all indeed real turquoises, is there another option besides the "introduction from far away"-one?

  Please let me know!

  best greetings,

  Lennert van Oorschot

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS FOUND
INPERU (Hoopes, John W)
2. Re: OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS FOUND
INPERU (Henry Avila)
3. Re: the age of metals (Diehl, Richard)
4. Re: OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS FOUND
INPERU (Marcelo Donadello)
5. OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS FOUND IN PERU
(Benjamin Carter)
6. Re: OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS
FOUNDINPERU (Henry Avila)
7. Smuggled Artifacts Returned (Elaine Day Schele)
8. ERIK BOOT'S REPORT ON TEOTIHUACAN/OAXACA TIES (michael ruggeri)

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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:11:10 -0500
From: "Hoopes, John W" 
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS
FOUND INPERU
To: "michael ruggeri" ,

Message-ID:
<1E3ABD54B1C7AC4692BDD6D7C880533D0457B2E3 at MAILBOXTHREE.home.ku.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Here's a link to the story in National Geographic News (with a comment
from yours truly):

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/03/080331-oldest-gold.html

John Hoopes

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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:41:31 -0600
From: "Henry Avila" 
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS
FOUND INPERU
To: 
Message-ID: <200804011741.m31HfZ6b022692 at www.famsi.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I wonder how is possible to determine the age of metals and minerals because
their composition is always older than the age when they had been used by
the people.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de michael ruggeri
Enviado el: Lunes, 31 de Marzo de 2008 06:16 p.m.
Para: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Aztlan] OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS FOUND INPERU

Listeros,

A necklace of gold and turquoise beads has been found at an ancient 
hunter-gatherer site in the Andes and are the oldest crafted gold 
jewelry ever found in the Americas. The burial site near Lake 
Titicaca dates between 2155-1936 BCE. A more secure economic base and 
complex culture was always the basis for jewelry making of this kind 
so this discovery of gold and turquoise jewelry changes the dynamic 
in this situation.

Live Science has the story with two photos here;

http://www.livescience.com/history/080331-old-gold.html

Mike Ruggeri

Mike Ruggeri's Ancient Andean World
http://tinyurl.com/2o79jy

Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ 
index.html

Andean and Amazonian Archaeology Discussion Group
http://tinyurl.com/2fnzpm

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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:10:52 -0500
From: "Diehl, Richard" 
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] the age of metals
To: 
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

There is no way to date the metal per se, only the object through its
association with other things of known date (C-14 samples, pottery,
specific layers, etc.). That is why it is so difficult to deal with
looted objects, the associations and contexts in which they were found
are never known or verifiable.

Dick Diehl

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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 21:24:37 -0300 (ART)
From: Marcelo Donadello 
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS
FOUND INPERU
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <876422.52359.qm at web55510.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Being the metallic objects in a tomb, I think it is possible that there are organic remains - wood, clothes, the same dead man - with which to date the set. This way, for example, there assume certain objects found in Tutankamon's tomb to his date of decease, etc. 

0,00001 cents. 
Forgive my english. 
Dona
www.myspace.com/123dona

Henry Avila escribi?:

I wonder how is possible to determine the age of metals and minerals because
their composition is always older than the age when they had been used by
the people.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de michael ruggeri
Enviado el: Lunes, 31 de Marzo de 2008 06:16 p.m.
Para: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Aztlan] OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS FOUND INPERU

Listeros,

A necklace of gold and turquoise beads has been found at an ancient 
hunter-gatherer site in the Andes and are the oldest crafted gold 
jewelry ever found in the Americas. The burial site near Lake 
Titicaca dates between 2155-1936 BCE. A more secure economic base and 
complex culture was always the basis for jewelry making of this kind 
so this discovery of gold and turquoise jewelry changes the dynamic 
in this situation.

Live Science has the story with two photos here;

http://www.livescience.com/history/080331-old-gold.html

Mike Ruggeri

Mike Ruggeri's Ancient Andean World
http://tinyurl.com/2o79jy

Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ 
index.html

Andean and Amazonian Archaeology Discussion Group
http://tinyurl.com/2fnzpm

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Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:11:44 -0400
From: Benjamin Carter 
Subject: [Aztlan] OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS FOUND
IN PERU
To: Aztlan , Andean and Amazonian Archaeology
Discussion Group

Message-ID: <47F38610.7080104 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

All,

The dates look good. The charcoal is from directly beneath the mandible 
associated around which the beads were found. The dates are: 
"3733 +/- 14C yrs B.P. (AA-36815) or 2155 to 1936 cal yrs B.C."

I have to agree with Hoopes comments on the National Geographic page. 
This is a really spectacular find, but associating this kind of gold 
working with social hierarchy is tentative at best. As discussed in the 
PNAS article, the technology is rather simple. People simply used pure 
gold (probably placer gold) and hammered it flat and then hammered it 
around a solid tube (a nice round stick would probably do). Let me be 
clear, I think this is an fascinating and important find, but more 
because it is associated with hunters and gatherers (Aldenderfer et al. 
use the term low-level food-producer, which is fairly cryptic) than as 
evidence of social hierarchy or status. In other words, this seems to be 
evidence of the ingenuity of hunters and gatherers experimenting with 
and utilizing resources from the environment in which they live. It is 
good evidence of the dynamic nature of hunters and gatherers, which 
contradicts the view that hunters and gatherers were not technologically 
innovative. Similarly, simply because an individual is buried with such 
artifacts does not necessarily indicate that they were of high status. 
This could be an indicator of differentiation rather than hierarchy. 
Perhaps there are other indications of high status with this individual 
that were not published.

The PNAS article does not have a lot of detail and the authors probably 
did not have the space to elaborate, so I look forward to further 
publications on this.

Ben Carter

Hoopes, John W wrote:
> Here's a link to the story in National Geographic News (with a comment
> from yours truly):
>
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/03/080331-oldest-gold.html
>
> John Hoopes
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php
>
>
>
> 

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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:30:59 -0600
From: "Henry Avila" 
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS
FOUNDINPERU
To: 
Message-ID: <200804021431.m32EV7oK016890 at www.famsi.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dona:

So in this case the age of the necklace was determined, dating other objects
in the place.

Because it looks to me, too speculative to date an iron necklace with such
specific dates, like 2155-1936 BCE.

Regards!

-----Mensaje original-----
De: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de Marcelo Donadello
Enviado el: Martes, 01 de Abril de 2008 06:25 p.m.
Para: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: Re: [Aztlan] OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS
FOUNDINPERU

Being the metallic objects in a tomb, I think it is possible that there are
organic remains - wood, clothes, the same dead man - with which to date the
set. This way, for example, there assume certain objects found in
Tutankamon's tomb to his date of decease, etc. 

0,00001 cents. 
Forgive my english. 
Dona
www.myspace.com/123dona

Henry Avila escribi?:

I wonder how is possible to determine the age of metals and minerals because
their composition is always older than the age when they had been used by
the people.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
En nombre de michael ruggeri
Enviado el: Lunes, 31 de Marzo de 2008 06:16 p.m.
Para: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Asunto: [Aztlan] OLDEST GOLD JEWELRY EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS FOUND INPERU

Listeros,

A necklace of gold and turquoise beads has been found at an ancient 
hunter-gatherer site in the Andes and are the oldest crafted gold 
jewelry ever found in the Americas. The burial site near Lake 
Titicaca dates between 2155-1936 BCE. A more secure economic base and 
complex culture was always the basis for jewelry making of this kind 
so this discovery of gold and turquoise jewelry changes the dynamic 
in this situation.

Live Science has the story with two photos here;

http://www.livescience.com/history/080331-old-gold.html

Mike Ruggeri

Mike Ruggeri's Ancient Andean World
http://tinyurl.com/2o79jy

Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/ 
index.html

Andean and Amazonian Archaeology Discussion Group
http://tinyurl.com/2fnzpm

_______________________________________________
Aztlan mailing list
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php

_______________________________________________
Aztlan mailing list
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php

---------------------------------

Tarjeta de cr?dito Yahoo! de Banco Supervielle.Solicit? tu nueva Tarjeta de
cr?dito. De tu PC directo a tu casa. 
Visit? www.tuprimeratarjeta.com.ar
_______________________________________________
Aztlan mailing list
http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php

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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:52:19 -0500
From: "Elaine Day Schele" 
Subject: [Aztlan] Smuggled Artifacts Returned
To: "Aztlan" 
Message-ID: <001401c894d9$889947e0$99cbd7a0$@rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Smuggled artifacts stored in Dallas customs vaults returned to Mexico

08:32 AM CDT on Wednesday, April 2, 2008

By DIANNE SOL?S / The Dallas Morning News 

dsolis at dallasnews.com 

A treasure-trove of about 100 artifacts, believed to be pre-Columbian, is on
its way to Mexico, its presumed home, U.S. customs agents and Mexican
diplomats said Tuesday. Among the antiquities is a stone mask of a
broad-featured man, which is believed to come from the Olmec civilization,
the oldest in the Americas, and it dates as far back as 1000 BC, experts
said. Other items include figurines in jadeite, precious stones symbolically
linked to fertility for the people of ancient Mesoamerica and once valued
more than gold. 

"We're so very happy about the return of these pieces," said Eduardo Rea
Falc?n, the consul in charge for Mexico's diplomatic post in Dallas. "It is
unfortunate that through looting and robbing, these items fell into private
hands." Adolfo Ayuso, Mexican consul of cultural affairs in Dallas inspects
one of the pieces being shipped to Mexico. One of the most stunning pieces
is the mask, Mr. Rea said. 

But when the experts at Mexico's National Institute for Anthropology and
History unpack the goods, they may unravel far more significant mysteries,
as authentication deepens, he said. "They may find something of incalculable
value," Mr. Rea said. Equally mysterious is the trajectory of the smuggled
artifacts into the Dallas vaults of U.S. Customs and Border Protection. 

The goods represent several seizures in Texas and New Mexico, including an
initial seizure in 2001, said Carlos Fontanez, a CBP spokesman in the
Houston office. But Mr. Fontanez gave few details to the whodunit tale. No
one has been charged with smuggling the goods into the U.S., he said, though
it is illegal to traffic in antiquities under U.S. law. Since 1827, Mexico
has prohibited the exportation of archaeological items. 

Some of the seizures were made by the Department of Homeland Security's
Immigration and Customs Enforcement. It has recently returned cultural
antiquities such as a 2,300 year-old vase from Italy seized at the Getty
Museum, and an entire 16th-century Mexican altar seized in Santa Fe, N.M.,
according to ICE news releases. 

Mexico has long been an archaeologists' paradise. But the sleuths of
civilizations past warn that Mexico is rife with those who make replicas of
items and attempt to pass them off as authentic. Looting inspires intense
condemnation. 

"As archaeologists, we strongly hold that looted artifacts should not be
allowed to be imported into the United States, and we celebrate the
interdiction of such artifacts by U.S. Customs," said David Freidel, a
professor in the Anthropology Department of Southern Methodist University.
"Mexico is very richly blessed with extraordinary pre-Columbian art...
highly coveted by private collectors who are ready to purchase from
unscrupulous dealers. It is a terrible problem." 

Shown slides provided by U.S. Customs, Dr. Freidel said he believed the mask
was probably Olmec, but he questioned whether some of the artifacts were
from Mexico, or Central America. A spokesman at Mexico's Institute of
Archaeology and History noted that no Mexican archaeologist has physically
seen the pieces and they still need to be verified. 

Robert Drolet, an archaeologist with the Corpus Christi Museum of Science
and History, said he surveyed about a dozen items in 2001, when the first
seizure was made. Only three were Mexican and all were memorable, he said.
They included the stone mask, which has etchings on the cheeks ? a sign of
an early Olmec writing system ? and he identified a crawling baby and a
cupped hand, rendered in jadeite. All came from the Olmec civilization,
whose territory is now largely Veracruz and Tabasco . 

"It is a remarkable collection," Dr. Drolet said. They are fantastic museum
pieces. It would have been nice to have some sort of information about how
the person it was seized from got it. ...Many of those Olmec artifacts must
have come from monumental art sites." 

Dr. Drolet said he was baffled by the delay in returning the objects to
Mexico, which he was told were seized in South Texas. Part of the delay in
the return of the items came from the authentication of the goods, said Mr.
Rea, the Mexican consul. And the diplomat estimated that the repatriation of
the cultural treasures was one of the largest ever for the Mexican
government. 

Mr. Fontanez acknowledged the delay in the return of the goods stemmed from
the authentication process. "When someone brings an artifact in, someone has
to determine that this is the original stuff," he said. Among the "original
stuff" are bows with arrows, sandals, textiles and funerary urns. 

"We don't doubt that there are pieces that are full of surprises," Mr. Rea
said. News assistant Javier Garc?a contributed to this article. 

Elaine Day Schele

Maya Meetings Volunteer Coordinator

PhD Student

University of Texas 

Latin American Studies

eschele at austin.rr.com

http://www.utmaya.org/

http://www.myspace.com/hixwitzutmayameeting

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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:40:48 -0500
From: michael ruggeri 
Subject: [Aztlan] ERIK BOOT'S REPORT ON TEOTIHUACAN/OAXACA TIES
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Listeros,

Erik Boot has posted this news item from INAH at his great news site 
that posts archaeological news from the Mexican and Central American 
press;

Ancient MesoAmerica News Updates 2008, No. 28: Teotihuacan, Mexico - 
INAH To Realize New Research at Teotihuacan
As was recently reported today, Friday March 28, 2008, by the 
Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, the archaeological 
project at Teotihuacan will realize new excavations in search of 
further evidence of Prehispanic contacts with the state of Oaxaca in 

=== message truncated ===

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  Lennert van Oorschot 
020-3201352 
06-27384289 
http://lenschot.blogspot.com/ 
http://lenschot.hyves.nl/ 

NCIV 
www.nciv.net

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