[Aztlan] Itzamna, God N and Bakab

Tue Jan 8 06:14:58 CST 2008

The Copan Doorway referred to in Mike's note can be found at
http://research.famsi.org/portfolio_hires.php?search=5951
<http://research.famsi.org/portfolio_hires.php?search=5951&date_added=&image
=5951&display=8&rowstart=0> &date_added=&image=5951&display=8&rowstart=0.

Justin

  _____  

From: Mike Geubel [mailto:mike.geubel at gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 6:22 AM
To: Justin Kerr
Cc: Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Itzamna, God N and Bakab

Dear Justin,

I have done some research and found some examples of Bakabs and Chaks
holding the sky from the Classic period:
- The door of temple 22 in Copan contains two Bakabs holding the Milkyway.
- The roof of the temple of the Sun in Palenque contains four figures
holding a skyband. These figures have the same crocodile-like-face as the
Chaks and wear the same neckless as the Bakabs in Copan; they also hold an
ax. 

So, from these two examples it seams that these Bakabs and Chaks all up the
sky.

Also it is said that Itzamna and Chak Chel (or Ix Chel) created the
skybearers, so they can be seen as their parents. But looking from another
perspective it is also true that the skybearers are manifestations of
Itzamna and Chak Chel, the creator grandparents. Maybe two skybearers are
male and the other two female: air and fire are male elements, the
directions for north and east, and water and earth are female elements, the
directions for south and west. 

Kind regards,
Mike Geubel

2007/12/27, Justin Kerr <mayavase at verizon.net>:

Dear Mike and Friends,

This question, and I would like to add, a good one, should unleash a very
long series of answers.

I would like to mention an incident of many years ago. I was sitting next to
Linda Schele at a dance performance in Israel. We were told that the next 
dance would represent a Hasidic (very orthodox) wedding; I grinned and told
Linda that the 4 bacabs would come out and hold up the sky. Linda, in her
usual way told me, in language I won't repeat, that was a bit of nonsense. 
However when 4 men come on stage and held up a canopy on 4 poles, Linda was
quite taken aback.

I am certainly not trying to make a case for cross cultural connections; I
merely wish to suggest that it is necessary to define which deities we are 
discussing and how those deities are defined by the people who made them.
I think it is important to realize that the very late document, The Dresden
Codex, (from which the alphabet deities derive) does not generally match the

images that appear on the Classic period ceramics. There are similarities to
be sure, but I do not believe that anyone can show an image of the bacabs on
any Classic ceramics. If Chak or God N are bacabs, their behavior on 
ceramics does not match any action of holding up the sky. If we look at the
behavior of the ax bearing Chak, then we see, rather than supporting the
temple, he is breaking the temple down (see for example K2068 and K2772). 
I believe that we still have a long way to go in understanding all or even
part of the deity's functions in the Classic period.

How for example do we interpret the image on K3124 where we seem to have an 
image of God N and a juvenile version of the same? Why for example is it
that God N is the deity (in the Highlands) who is humiliated after the
defeat of the Lords of the Otherworld and it is God L in the lowlands? (K578

and K2847 [Highlands], K1560 [lowlands].
This is certainly not the last word.

Justin Kerr

--Original Message-----
From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
On Behalf Of Mike Geubel
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:34 PM
To: Aztlan at lists.famsi.org  <mailto:Aztlan at lists.famsi.org> 
Subject: [Aztlan] Itzamna, God N and Bakab

Hello,

This is my first post on the Aztlan mailing list. I have a question about
God N:
Linda Schele says that the four God N deties are equal to the four Bacabs. 

Karin Bassie also wrote in her document 'Maya Creator Gods' on page 30: "God
N was a Bakab, but as David Stuart has noted neither T1014 nor T64 ever
substitutes with any of the numerous examples of the pa signs." Later in 
this document Karrin Bassie says that God N and God D are the same deity:
Itzamna.

Because of this I conclude that the four Bakabs are manifestations of
Itzamna, and because of that also the four Chaaks are manifestations of him.

Somewhere (I don't know the source anymore) I have red that the Bakabs or
Chaaks are Itzamna's sons, so they don't match up.

And are the Chaaks, Bakabs and Pawahtun the same?

Can somebody help me with this please? 

Kind regards,
Mike Geubel
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-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, 

Mike Geubel 

Mijn reizen: http://geubel.blogspot.com
Mijn blog:   http://mikegeubel.blogspot.com 