[Aztlan] Itzamna, God N and Bakab

[David Hixson]

Dear Mike,

You are absolutely correct in identifying what appear
to be "sky bearers" in these monuments.  However, I
would politely disagree with your atribution of the
facial features of Chak as "crocodile-like".

There have been two major camps in this issue over the
last decade or so, one arguing for an ophidian
(serpent) origin for the characteristics of Chak, and
the other a mix of ophidian and avian (specifically
the "Principle Bird Diety" which combines both avian
and ophidian Maya artistic conventions).  Both are
Maya conventions for celestial entities, while the
crocodile is not.

I would be happy to be disproven, but so far I have
not seen any evidence to the contrary.  (See Kabah
Str. 1A1 and the north or south sides of structure IV
within the Adivino at Uxmal - where either "Chak" or
the "PBD" masks are given sinuous serpent bodies.)

These representations are clearly ophidian (possibly
with some avian characteristics), but not crocodilian.

-Dave


--- Mike Geubel <mike.geubel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Justin,
> 
> I have done some research and found some examples of
> Bakabs and Chaks
> holding the sky from the Classic period:
> - The door of temple 22 in Copan contains two Bakabs
> holding the Milkyway.
> - The roof of the temple of the Sun in Palenque
> contains four figures
> holding a skyband. These figures have the same
> crocodile-like-face as the
> Chaks and wear the same neckless as the Bakabs in
> Copan; they also hold an
> ax.
> 
> So, from these two examples it seams that these
> Bakabs and Chaks all up the
> sky.
> 
> Also it is said that Itzamna and Chak Chel (or Ix
> Chel) created the
> skybearers, so they can be seen as their parents.
> But looking from another
> perspective it is also true that the skybearers are
> manifestations of
> Itzamna and Chak Chel, the creator grandparents.
> Maybe two skybearers are
> male and the other two female: air and fire are male
> elements, the
> directions for north and east, and water and earth
> are female elements, the
> directions for south and west.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Mike Geubel
> 
> 
> 2007/12/27, Justin Kerr <mayavase at verizon.net>:
> >
> > Dear Mike and Friends,
> >
> > This question, and I would like to add, a good
> one, should unleash a very
> > long series of answers.
> >
> > I would like to mention an incident of many years
> ago. I was sitting next
> > to
> > Linda Schele at a dance performance in Israel. We
> were told that the next
> > dance would represent a Hasidic (very orthodox)
> wedding; I grinned and
> > told
> > Linda that the 4 bacabs would come out and hold up
> the sky. Linda, in her
> > usual way told me, in language I won't repeat,
> that was a bit of nonsense.
> > However when 4 men come on stage and held up a
> canopy on 4 poles, Linda
> > was
> > quite taken aback.
> >
> > I am certainly not trying to make a case for cross
> cultural connections; I
> > merely wish to suggest that it is necessary to
> define which deities we are
> > discussing and how those deities are defined by
> the people who made them.
> > I think it is important to realize that the very
> late document, The
> > Dresden
> > Codex, (from which the alphabet deities derive)
> does not generally match
> > the
> > images that appear on the Classic period ceramics.
> There are similarities
> > to
> > be sure, but I do not believe that anyone can show
> an image of the bacabs
> > on
> > any Classic ceramics. If Chak or God N are bacabs,
> their behavior on
> > ceramics does not match any action of holding up
> the sky. If we look at
> > the
> > behavior of the ax bearing Chak, then we see,
> rather than supporting the
> > temple, he is breaking the temple down (see for
> example K2068 and K2772).
> > I believe that we still have a long way to go in
> understanding all or even
> > part of the deity's functions in the Classic
> period.
> >
> > How for example do we interpret the image on K3124
> where we seem to have
> > an
> > image of God N and a juvenile version of the same?
> Why for example is it
> > that God N is the deity (in the Highlands) who is
> humiliated after the
> > defeat of the Lords of the Otherworld and it is
> God L in the lowlands?
> > (K578
> > and K2847 [Highlands], K1560 [lowlands].
> > This is certainly not the last word.
> >
> > Justin Kerr
> >
> > --Original Message-----
> > From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org [mailto:
> > aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
> > On Behalf Of Mike Geubel
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:34 PM
> > To: Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> > Subject: [Aztlan] Itzamna, God N and Bakab
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > This is my first post on the Aztlan mailing list.
> I have a question about
> > God N:
> > Linda Schele says that the four God N deties are
> equal to the four Bacabs.
> >
> > Karin Bassie also wrote in her document 'Maya
> Creator Gods' on page 30:
> > "God
> > N was a Bakab, but as David Stuart has noted
> neither T1014 nor T64 ever
> > substitutes with any of the numerous examples of
> the pa signs." Later in
> > this document Karrin Bassie says that God N and
> God D are the same deity:
> > Itzamna.
> >
> > Because of this I conclude that the four Bakabs
> are manifestations of
> > Itzamna, and because of that also the four Chaaks
> are manifestations of
> > him.
> > Somewhere (I don't know the source anymore) I have
> red that the Bakabs or
> > Chaaks are Itzamna's sons, so they don't match up.
> >
> > And are the Chaaks, Bakabs and Pawahtun the same?
> >
> > Can somebody help me with this please?
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Mike Geubel
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
> 
> Mike Geubel
> 
> Mijn reizen: http://geubel.blogspot.com
> Mijn blog:  http://mikegeubel.blogspot.com
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