[Aztlan] Itzamna, God N and Bakab

Tue Jan 8 13:00:14 CST 2008

The link from Justin has extra variables in it and retrieves and error page. 
Please use this link:
http://research.famsi.org/portfolio_hires.php?search=5951&date_added=&image=5951&display=8&rowstart=0

Thanks,
Sandy Mielke
www.famsi.org

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Kerr" <mayavase at verizon.net>
To: "'Mike Geubel'" <mike.geubel at gmail.com>
Cc: <Aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Itzamna, God N and Bakab

> The Copan Doorway referred to in Mike's note can be found at
> http://research.famsi.org/portfolio_hires.php?search=5951
> <http://research.famsi.org/portfolio_hires.php?search=5951&date_added=&image
> =5951&display=8&rowstart=0> &date_added=&image=5951&display=8&rowstart=0.
>
> Justin
>
>
>
>  _____
>
> From: Mike Geubel [mailto:mike.geubel at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 6:22 AM
> To: Justin Kerr
> Cc: Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Itzamna, God N and Bakab
>
>
>
> Dear Justin,
>
> I have done some research and found some examples of Bakabs and Chaks
> holding the sky from the Classic period:
> - The door of temple 22 in Copan contains two Bakabs holding the Milkyway.
> - The roof of the temple of the Sun in Palenque contains four figures
> holding a skyband. These figures have the same crocodile-like-face as the
> Chaks and wear the same neckless as the Bakabs in Copan; they also hold an
> ax.
>
> So, from these two examples it seams that these Bakabs and Chaks all up 
> the
> sky.
>
> Also it is said that Itzamna and Chak Chel (or Ix Chel) created the
> skybearers, so they can be seen as their parents. But looking from another
> perspective it is also true that the skybearers are manifestations of
> Itzamna and Chak Chel, the creator grandparents. Maybe two skybearers are
> male and the other two female: air and fire are male elements, the
> directions for north and east, and water and earth are female elements, 
> the
> directions for south and west.
>
> Kind regards,
> Mike Geubel
>
>
>
> 2007/12/27, Justin Kerr <mayavase at verizon.net>:
>
> Dear Mike and Friends,
>
> This question, and I would like to add, a good one, should unleash a very
> long series of answers.
>
> I would like to mention an incident of many years ago. I was sitting next 
> to
> Linda Schele at a dance performance in Israel. We were told that the next
> dance would represent a Hasidic (very orthodox) wedding; I grinned and 
> told
> Linda that the 4 bacabs would come out and hold up the sky. Linda, in her
> usual way told me, in language I won't repeat, that was a bit of nonsense.
> However when 4 men come on stage and held up a canopy on 4 poles, Linda 
> was
> quite taken aback.
>
> I am certainly not trying to make a case for cross cultural connections; I
> merely wish to suggest that it is necessary to define which deities we are
> discussing and how those deities are defined by the people who made them.
> I think it is important to realize that the very late document, The 
> Dresden
> Codex, (from which the alphabet deities derive) does not generally match 
> the
>
> images that appear on the Classic period ceramics. There are similarities 
> to
> be sure, but I do not believe that anyone can show an image of the bacabs 
> on
> any Classic ceramics. If Chak or God N are bacabs, their behavior on
> ceramics does not match any action of holding up the sky. If we look at 
> the
> behavior of the ax bearing Chak, then we see, rather than supporting the
> temple, he is breaking the temple down (see for example K2068 and K2772).
> I believe that we still have a long way to go in understanding all or even
> part of the deity's functions in the Classic period.
>
> How for example do we interpret the image on K3124 where we seem to have 
> an
> image of God N and a juvenile version of the same? Why for example is it
> that God N is the deity (in the Highlands) who is humiliated after the
> defeat of the Lords of the Otherworld and it is God L in the lowlands? 
> (K578
>
> and K2847 [Highlands], K1560 [lowlands].
> This is certainly not the last word.
>
> Justin Kerr
>
> --Original Message-----
> From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org 
> [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]
> On Behalf Of Mike Geubel
> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:34 PM
> To: Aztlan at lists.famsi.org  <mailto:Aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Subject: [Aztlan] Itzamna, God N and Bakab
>
> Hello,
>
> This is my first post on the Aztlan mailing list. I have a question about
> God N:
> Linda Schele says that the four God N deties are equal to the four Bacabs.
>
> Karin Bassie also wrote in her document 'Maya Creator Gods' on page 30: 
> "God
> N was a Bakab, but as David Stuart has noted neither T1014 nor T64 ever
> substitutes with any of the numerous examples of the pa signs." Later in
> this document Karrin Bassie says that God N and God D are the same deity:
> Itzamna.
>
> Because of this I conclude that the four Bakabs are manifestations of
> Itzamna, and because of that also the four Chaaks are manifestations of 
> him.
>
> Somewhere (I don't know the source anymore) I have red that the Bakabs or
> Chaaks are Itzamna's sons, so they don't match up.
>
> And are the Chaaks, Bakabs and Pawahtun the same?
>
> Can somebody help me with this please?
>
> Kind regards,
> Mike Geubel
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> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
>
> Mike Geubel
>
> Mijn reizen: http://geubel.blogspot.com
> Mijn blog:   http://mikegeubel.blogspot.com
>
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