[Aztlan] zero does not mean "shell"

Mon Jul 21 23:53:15 CDT 2008

Lloyd,
Well we could go around in linguistic circles on this one forever. I
don't think the English word "shell" carries a *connotation* that the
Maya pictograph that we agree resembles a shell should be called a
shell; rather, I believe the correct characterization is that the
English word shell *denotes* what the picture is. In other words, it is
bereft of interpretive bias, unless you want to debate the resemblance
of the shell glyph to a shell. A sign is not a symbol. In comparison to
this unambiguous "denotation" your use of the term "connotation" implies
that an interpretive ambiguity has been injected into the meaning. If we
want to reduce the possibility of ambiguity in terms of how we name or
designation the date 0.0.0.0.0, then we should winnow out any secondary
interpretations of the meaning ascribed to a picture of a shall,
including the interpretation that it means "zero." (As long as we're
dissecting the atomic structure of our grammatical assumptions, perhaps
we should revisit the shell=zero equation and provide citations to the
origin of this interpretation). The most objective stance is to call
what was formerly, and possibly mistakenly, designated 0.0.0.0.0
"shell.shell.shell.shell.shell."  I personally think that's rather
silly, but that would be the safe scientific position.  

If a future culture encountered our mathematical symbol of "0" or the
string 0.0.0.0.0 it would be completely logical for them to identify
this as "circle.circle.circle.circle.circle" until further evidence
proved otherwise. 

If, as your subject line states, "zero does not equal shell", is that to
say that the shell glyph has not been translated to mean "zero"?
Somebody should go set Wikipedia straight:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_numerals. Perhaps your assertion rests
upon the true meaning of "equals" or what we mean by "is". Or something.
I'm fairly mystified as to what point you're trying to make.   

The evidence that you may cite for a 20-Baktun cycle will, I am sure,
come completely from Palenque, and specifically in the context of a date
used as a political power play by Pacal some seven centuries after the
Long Count system was inaugurated.   

You wrote: "Back to the "13" in the Baktun's position --- The "13"
actually appears in the Dresden, though not much elsewhere." [Emphasis
added] Ahem ... Coba, Copan, Vase of the Seven Lords, Vase of the 13
Lords, Quirigua, Palenque, Tortuguero - all utilize Long Count
13.0.0.0.0. These monuments also have the important and, in the context
of our discussion, meaningful distinction of containing hieroglyphic
texts that have been identified (contra nobody) as "Creation" texts. The
20-Baktun cycle-ending designator, at Palenque, has the sad distinction
of serving Pacal's wish to cast himself into the story of Creation. Our
love affair with Pacal has placed undue relevance on the fantasies of
one Maya king committing political power plays seven centuries after the
structure of the Long Count was established.

JMJ

-----Original Message-----
From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org
[mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of ECOLING at aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:29 PM
Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Subject: [Aztlan] zero does not mean "shell"

JMJ is wrong about "shell" because his "translation" is assuming that it
is 
taken
as representing the object which is used as a symbol.   That is what
using 
the
English word "shell" carries as connotation, and cannot be correct here.

Rather, it is a symbol which (via emptiness perhaps, or a hole, or
something
like that) represents the mathematical concept of "none", or close to
zero.
Since the Mayan is using a place notation system, that brings it still
closer 
to
our zero, though surely the connotations are not exactly the same.
I really doubt that there is any better translation than "zero".

So we should *not* refer to Mayan "0.0.0.0.0" as 
"shell.shell.shell.shell.shell" 
That would be a gross misrepresentation of its meaning.
Just as would be "circle.circle.circle.circle.circle" in English,
even though the digit <0> does have the shape of a circle.
The *form* of a symbol, once it has become a symbol,
is normally almost completely irrelevant to its meaning in actual usage,
and often even irrelevant to its connotations.

***

As to the date in 3114 BC,   it could also be called the "starting
point"
of the current 5-place long count.   

That is probably better than calling it the "completion point" of the 
preceding cycle, 
since (contra JMJ) there is evidence in calculations for both 
<13.0.0.0.0> and [20].0.0.0.0 as the mathematical value at those
completions. 

The Maya did show an appreciation of the edge-like nature of the end of
one month and the beginning of the next month, an ambiguity at the
margin,
in some of the rarer glyphs they used for this edge transition.

Back to the "13" in the Baktun's position --
The "13" actually appears in the Dresden, though not much elsewhere 
(and why this difference in context?)
in what look like ordinary dates or calculations. 
Long strings of "13"s are singularly *not* like ordinary dates.
As I pointed out in an earlier message, that makes it singularly
irregular 
to claim that one Pictun equals 13 Baktuns, 
since that should normally be written 1.0.0.0.0.0
with the 1 in the next place of the place-notation system,
and occasionally we do have such notations.   
Those occur in the normal contexts and forms for dates.
It is the ones with the "13" which are anomalous.
We do not yet know how to interpret this,
or whether the "13" is symbolic of something else,
like "completed long ago" without an exact mathematical value.

Best wishes,
Lloyd Anderson
Ecological Linguistics
PO Box 15156
Washington DC 20003
ecoling at aol.com
202-547-7683

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