[Aztlan] Of 13s and shells

[John Major Jenkins]

Jorge,

Vases of 7 and 13 Lords - It is widely acknowledged that the CR designations on these vases, with its supporting textual references, relate to the so-called Creation date in 3114; thus to 0.0.0.0.0 (or 13.0.0.0.0, however you prefer to label it). Copan: Are you unaware of the Copan references? I think it sort of derails the discussion and the point I was making, which you haven't really addressed, to request citations. Pull Maya Cosmos off the shelf and look it up. Palenque: I was not referring to Pakal's politically motivated info on  the 20-Baktun date, but to other texts at Palenque that reference the CR position of 0.0.0.0.0 in 3114 BC. Therefore, your critique is misplaced. On Tortuguero you wrote: "this could very possibly be just a mention of the end of the 13th. baktun; in and of itself, it does not prove either a special significance of the date—beyond that of a period ending-or that there couldn't or wouldn't be a 14th." That's a fascinating and self-contradicting intepretation of Tortuguero Monument 6 - valid perhaps as a far-out speculation that we must entertain - but it ignores and contradicts the current consensus on the decipherment, meaning, and importance of that monument. It is important to provide an analogy or example for ones position - can you provide a precedent or example of your speculation? In support of my premise that 13.0.0.0.0 is the end of a cycle, and is not followed by 14.0.0.0.0 but is in practice analogous to 0.0.0.0.0, we can draw from the 13.0.0.0.0 references to 3114 BC. Because of the other Long Count's dates on record from the pre-Classic and Classic Periods, it is clear that 13.0.0.0.0 in 3114 BC was treated as being equivalent to 0.0.0.0.0. Bereft of any contradicting evidence, and any evidence for your speculation, that concept can also be applied as a working hypothesis to Tortuguero's reference to 13.0.0.0.0 in 2012. 

JMJ



-----Original Message-----
>From: Jorge Pérez de Lara Elías <jorgepl at estudioelias.com>
>Sent: Jul 22, 2008 12:12 AM
>To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
>Subject: [Aztlan] Of 13s and shells
>
>Commenting on JMJ's counter-examples to Lloyd's affirmation that "13
>actually appears in the Dresden, though not much elsewhere", he cites:
>
>- Cobá (here Stela 1 is notable PRECISELY because it is a rare example
>of a 13-based chain)
>- Copán (reference?)
>- Vase of the Seven Lords (sic) (there are no elements on this vase
>that belong to any Long Count and certainly no reference to magnitude
>13 of any periods, so this cannot be used as a counterargument to Lloyd)
>- Vase of the 13 Lords (sic) (again, no elements of a Long Count and
>no magnitudes of 13)
>- Quiriguá (Stela C's 4 Ajaw 8 Kumk'u is indeed linked to 13.0.0.0.0;
>this is only the second valid example in JMJ's counterexamples)
>- Palenque (in an argument, one can't have it both ways: if JMJ
>discounts the Palenque examples that do not support his argument as
>merely "political powerplays" by Pakal, he cannot bring them up to
>shore up his argument when it suits him)
>-Tortuguero (this could very possibly be just a mention of the end of
>the 13th. baktun; in and of itself, it does not prove either a special
>significance of the date—beyond that of a period ending— or that there
>couldn't or wouldn't be a 14th. baktun thereafter; even more damaging
>for JMJ's broader thesis: this is the only known mention of 2012 by
>the Classic Maya).
>
>Therefore, JMJ has yet to cite more than 2 valid examples that counter
>Lloyd's argument that "13 actually appears in the Dresden, though not
>much elsewhere". Not considering the Dresden, I'd say that 2 examples
>certainly qualifies for the statement "not much elsewhere".
>
>Jorge Perez de Lara
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