[Aztlan] Aztlan Digest, Vol 5, Issue 22
rod44 at comcast.net
rod44 at comcast.net
Wed Jun 18 11:13:17 CDT 2008
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Witz (rod44 at comcast.net)
2. Re: Re: Witz (David Stuart)
3. Re: Re: Witz (David Hixson)
4. Ancient dogs and humans in North America (michael ruggeri)
5. Re: Re: Witz (rod44 at comcast.net)
6. Maya Sites and Abbreviations (Nick Hopkins)
7. Re: Witz (Nick Hopkins)
8. The Witz Head (Justin Kerr)
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:24:15 +0000
From: rod44 at comcast.net
Subject: [Aztlan] Re: Witz
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID:
<042320061724.15303.444BB83F00084EFA00003BC72200735834CBCB0B019D at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain
I've been reading about recent research on Maya caves. Can anyone tell me what
(if any) is the difference between the Witz Monster and the Kawak.
JJR
*************************************
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 13:49:38 -0500
From: David Stuart <kawil at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Re: Witz
To: rod44 at comcast.net
Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <6FEDF5C6-410C-4CED-8E3D-D3EFD046F0A4 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
The "Witz Monster" (an unfortunate name) is a specific iconographic
motif that is one of several sub-sets of what used to be generically
called a "Cauac (or Kawak) Monster." It's a complex subject that has
not been properly explained in print, but there are a few essentials
to point out.
"Kawak" is simply the name of the 19th day (= "Rain" throughout
Mesoamerica), so it would be great to see us drop the term from any
iconographic discussions, as ingrained as it is in the literature.
When not a day sign, the simple glyph stands for "stone" (tuun) and
has an animate version as well. This animate version overlaps
slightly with portraits of the rain/lightning deity, although the
precise relationship between them remains to be explored fully. We
see the relationship linguistically too, since the Yucatec deity name
Chaak and the day name Kawak are distant cognates (Chaak < Ch'olan
Chahk < chahuk, "lightning").
The witz, "mountain," head is a part of this complex too, presumably
because of the intimate connection between mountains and rain
clouds. Witz heads incorporate the same stone markings as we see in
TUUN glyphs, but it has a distinctive set of features setting it
apart, such as:
* a stepped cleft atop the forehead, usually, or at least a curvy or
jagged outline.
* a missing or skeletal mandible
* large drooping eyelashes, which in early version show three wavy
lines emanating down over the eye itself.
* These generally are found as the basal images on stelae, or else
the heads might be stacked to show a stony, frame-like enclosure of a
cave.
Some good examples of Witz heads: Corner masks of Structure 22 at
Copan, Basal register of Bonampak Stela 1, Back of Copan, Stela B,
stucco facade of Balamku.
It's a bit hard to go over this without the visuals, of course, but
hope this helps.
- David Stuart
On Apr 23, 2006, at 12:24 PM, rod44 at comcast.net wrote:
> I've been reading about recent research on Maya caves. Can anyone
> tell me what (if any) is the difference between the Witz Monster
> and the Kawak.
> JJR
>
> *************************************
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:24:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Hixson <aztlandave at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Re: Witz
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Cc: rod44 at comcast.net
Message-ID: <20060423192445.71641.qmail at web37013.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Estimados Listeros,
As David Stuart mentioned that images would help this
discussion, may I suggest this image of the witz face
at the base of Bonampak stela 1 from my web site:
studentweb.tulane.edu/~dhixson/bonampak/stela1b.html
It contains most or all of the traits listed in
David's email (a portion is copied below).
A search of FAMSI's archives of Linda Schele's
drawings also came up with some excellent examples.
Simply type in the URL:
research.famsi.org/schele.html
Then type into the search engine either "witz" or the
following Schele numbers:
3519
185
2052
3522
3532
4084
Hope this helps,
-Dave
--- David Stuart <kawil at mac.com> wrote:
> The witz, "mountain," [snipped] has a distinctive
set of
> features setting it
> apart, such as:
>
> * a stepped cleft atop the forehead, usually, or at
> least a curvy or
> jagged outline.
> * a missing or skeletal mandible
> * large drooping eyelashes, which in early version
> show three wavy
> lines emanating down over the eye itself.
> * These generally are found as the basal images on
> stelae, or else
> the heads might be stacked to show a stony,
> frame-like enclosure of a
> cave.
>
> Some good examples of Witz heads: Corner masks of
> Structure 22 at
> Copan, Basal register of Bonampak Stela 1, Back of
> Copan, Stela B,
> stucco facade of Balamku.
>
> It's a bit hard to go over this without the visuals,
> of course, but
> hope this helps.
>
> - David Stuart
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 16:54:51 -0500
From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] Ancient dogs and humans in North America
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <DD301F3D-6C0D-4D31-9A92-52CF0EB89D1B at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
-------------- next part --------------
Posted on Sun, Apr. 23, 2006
-------------- next part --------------
A dog's life long ago
Broke backs pleasing their Indian masters
BY GEORGE PAWLACZYK
News-Democrat
BROOKLYN - In ancient Illinois, small dogs were made to carry or pull
sacks of firewood until the tips of their vertebrae broke.
Sometimes their heads were lopped off with stone axes during
sacrificial ceremonies. Most often, they were buried with the trash.
No wonder canines kept by Indians in the Midwest were described in
early European explorers' journals as nasty tempered and prone to
bite. They were also believed to be unable to bark but still served
as watch dogs, perhaps by nibbling on a sleeping Indian's toes.
Nevertheless, an evolving archaeological record in the metro-east
shows that these small 25- to 35-pound primitive animals became as
ingrained in ancient human existence as today's pampered canine pets.
In Southern Illinois a thousand years ago, it was truly a dog's life,
according to 60 complete or partial dog skeletons recovered from the
remarkably well-preserved, buried remains of a village from an era
archaeologists refer to as "Terminal Woodland." The site is just
outside Brooklyn and is well clear of a nearby modern cemetery.
This fishing village was primarily occupied until about 950 A.D., or
just before the explosion of mound building that marked the more well-
known Mississippian Culture, whose members built the raised earthen
complex at the Cahokia Mounds Interpretive Center a few miles away.
The skeleton total from the Brooklyn site, first excavated in 2003,
is probably a North American record for the recovery of prehistoric
dog remains, said Joe Galloy, a Harvard-trained archaeologist.
Galloy's specialties include interpreting the relationship between
dogs and the earliest Americans.
"If there is something that really pulls on the muscles, this bone,
the spinous process will fracture and reheal, and this is an example
of one," said Galloy, holding up a delicate, deformed vertebra on
which the shark-fin like bone tip that anchors back muscles was bent.
"You see this in modern sled dogs," he said, "This comes from being
used as pack animals, probably hauling firewood."
On a large sheet of white paper spread on a table in front of Galloy
at the offices of the Illinois Transportation Archaeological Research
Program in Belleville, was the nearly complete skeleton of a young,
female dog recovered from the excavation site.
Galloy said this creature is descended from wolves that probably
prowled human camps and dumps 15,000 or so years ago in Europe and
Asia and gradually changed in appearance to resemble today's dogs.
Galloy said the wolves, in return for scavenging, became the eyes and
ears of the humans and eventually became their hunting partners.
At another archeological site -- the Koster Site along the Illinois
River in Calhoun County -- one of the earliest North American dog
burials was uncovered in the 1970s. Radiocarbon dating showed it is
about 8,500 years old.
This animal, however, was probably a revered hunting dog and was
interred separate from a trash pit and had been reverently laid on
its side, just like rare human burials from this much earlier time.
But the dogs found by excavating teams at the Brooklyn dig headed by
Galloy and site supervisor Brad Koldehoff were not hunting partners.
By the time of this particular village, fishing and growing corn had
replaced nomadic hunting.
The Brooklyn site, which has gained a national reputation, is
officially known as "Janey B. Goode." The nickname derives from the
old Chuck Berry song and is a tribute to the location's
archaeological riches.
"In contrast to earlier times, when the men went out hunting and the
dogs went with them and were very highly valued, at this time people
settled in one spot and the dogs became women's' helpers," he said.
Another use, albeit a grisly one, was as sacrifices, probably to
dispel sickness in humans.
Six of the dogs, all males, were found buried and headless. Two dogs
were found with their heads still intact, but with their skeletons
bound back to back with the skulls facing east and west.
Dog remains found from a time a few hundred years later at Cahokia
Mounds were burned and had cut marks indicating the creatures had
been used as food, said Koldehoff, the excavation director. Koldehoff
pointed out that within a span of maybe 500 to 600 years, early dogs
went from hunting partners, to pack animals to dinner fare.
But weren't there some ancient people, children perhaps, who cuddled
primitive puppies and maybe even played with them?
Koldehoff said he thinks that had to have happened, but there is no
physical proof.
"There's certain things you can't dig up," he said. "You can't dig up
a dance. You can't dig up a song. And you can't dig up somebody
petting a dog."
Contact reporter George Pawlaczyk at gpawlaczyk at bnd.com and 239-2625.
? 2006 Belleville News-Democrat and wire service sources. All Rights
Reserved.
http://www.belleville.com
Mike Ruggeri's Alternate News
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERIS/index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America and Mesoamerica News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/
index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and
Lectures
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Mound
Builders and Ancient Southwest News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISMOUND/index.html
Mike Ruggeri's Andean Archaeology News and Links
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MikeRuggerisAndean/
index.html
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 01:04:17 +0000
From: rod44 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Re: Witz
To: David Hixson <aztlandave at yahoo.com>, aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID:
<042420060104.347.444C2411000BEE280000015B2205886442CBCB0B019D at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain
Thank you, both of you, for taking the time to answer. I am not sure I
completely undersatand the diference... but I'm much furthere on the way. I
will look at the images.
JJR
-------------- Original message --------------
From: David Hixson <aztlandave at yahoo.com>
> Estimados Listeros,
>
> As David Stuart mentioned that images would help this
> discussion, may I suggest this image of the witz face
> at the base of Bonampak stela 1 from my web site:
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 09:28:08 -0400
From: Nick Hopkins <nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu>
Subject: [Aztlan] Maya Sites and Abbreviations
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <4739804C-AA44-4D6C-8C89-2D8C8C51DDB4 at mailer.fsu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed
There is another updating of the abbreviations, by Berthold Riese,
posted on Wayeb Notes. Go to www.wayeb.org and look for "Abkürzungen
für Maya-Ruinenorte mit Inschriften" ((No. 8, 2004). Don't worry
about the German, the lists are easy to use.
Nick Hopkins
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 09:52:25 -0400
From: Nick Hopkins <nhopkins at mailer.fsu.edu>
Subject: [Aztlan] Re: Witz
To: Aztlan <Aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Cc: rod44 at comcast.net
Message-ID: <FF0D1AA7-E5CA-49DC-A88C-362E7D5BF2BA at mailer.fsu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
It's possible to back off from the details and look at this in a
wider perspective. All the elements mentioned (the mountain, rain,
lightning, stone, etc.) are related through the widespread
Mesoamerican deity often called Earth Owner (also Lord of the
Mountain, the Earth Lord, etc., depending on what language you are
looking at). He lives deep in the earth and can be called out to
caves to receive petitions and offerings. He owns all the earth's
material things--land, trees, animals, minerals, water, and so on,
and he must be asked for his permission in order to use these things
without sanction (see Vogt's books on Zinacantan, Chiapas, for more
details). He has many manifestations which are called by different
names and treated as distinct by cautious iconographers and
epigraphers, but they are all part of the same complex. He is
related to mountain (witz) and stone (tun) because of where he lives
(and he sometimes is the personified mountains), he sends out the
clouds and rain ("Rain" = 19th day name) and throws lightning (Cauac
or Kawak). In Chol folktales he interacts with people and appears
under the names Lak Mam (Our Grandfather) and Don Juan (related to
John the Baptist because of the water connection and because the
summer rains start around June 24, his feast day). Anyway, he
basically represents the natural world and Earth, which is why people
on monuments are standing on his widely varying images.
Nick Hopkins
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:01:23 -0400
From: "Justin Kerr" <mayavase at verizon.net>
Subject: [Aztlan] The Witz Head
To: "AZTLAN" <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <003e01c667a7$92c57010$6701a8c0 at justnew>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Just to add an image. The URL below will take you to The Witz Head on
Structure 52 at Copan, Honduras.
Justin
http://research.famsi.org/portfolio_hires.php?search=witz
<http://research.famsi.org/portfolio_hires.php?search=witz&image=7357p&displ
ay=8&rowstart=0> &image=7357p&display=8&rowstart=0
http://research.famsi.org/portfolio_hires.php?search=*witz*
<http://research.famsi.org/portfolio_hires.php?search=*witz*&image=7357q&dis
play=8&rowstart=0> &image=7357q&display=8&rowstart=0
------------------------------
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