[Aztlan] Agreements re 13.0.0.0.0

[John Major Jenkins]

Do we have direct evidence that Paleolithic humans were having sex? No,
we don't. We have secondary evidence - progeny that led to us. But no,
we don't have primary, direct evidence. It would therefore be an
unwarranted  assumption - such are the pitfalls of logic.  

Iconography can convey just as much or more information as hieroglyphic
writing. Whether you want to call them "iconographic documents",
"texts", or "statements", it doesn't really matter. My point was that
the alleged dearth of "statements" on 2012 disregards contextual
iconographic records that were used during the pre-hieroglyphic era in
which the Long Count was invented.

I intentionally emphasized THE to draw attention once again to the many
monuments dated 13.0.0.0.0. This period-ending, and thus the 13-baktun
cycle, is used repeatedly in the context of a Creation event /
narrative. We can easily draw the analogy to how World Ages were
conceived in, for example, the Popol Vuh and other Mesoamerican World
Age doctrines. A repeating sequence of 13-baktuns is attested by
Tortuguero Monument 6. This can be branded an anomaly, or it can be
called evidence.

In the end, no amount of evidence ever makes a breakthrough. Consensus
does. A greater number of people in agreement can make a consensus with
very little evidence. No amount of evidence presented and agreed upon by
one or two people will ever make a consensus.   

John Major Jenkins


-----Original Message-----
From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org
[mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of ECOLING at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 12:15 AM
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Subject: [Aztlan] Agreements re 13.0.0.0.0

There are several places where I will agree with John Major Jenkins.

I agree mostly with the short paragraph which 
he writes about the text on the 
Temple of Inscriptions at Palenque.

<<As for the 20-baktun date at Palenque, this is a future marker used
for
political reasons by Pacal. As an indication of what baktun interval was
considered to be THE World Age creation interval, it is much less
compelling than the many, many, 13-baktun cycle-ending Creation Texts
mentioned above. In fact, as an indicator of the World Age period, it is
irrelevant. It's use was politically motivated.>>

In fact, one of the two points I was making was exactly that.

The second point I was making was that the fact that a date occurs
in a text does not mean that date was on the narrative event line
(that it was regarded as an important event in a narrative),
because it *can* sometimes merely be a reference framework
to specify other dates.   This can be an argument against
a claimed certainty of *some* interpretations of dates 
notated as 13.0.0.0.0 as well as against dates notated 1.0.0.0.0.0.
(But it seems to me not a valid objection if the round date occurs
in isolation, not in relation to any other dates, 
so not used as a framework to hang the others on. 
Then presumably the date *was* the focus of the narrative 
in the text at that point, it was considered a significant event.)

A third point I will make here is that there is a *presupposition*
built into the paragraph quoted above from John Major Jenkins.
That is the one carried by the little word 'the" which he capitalizes
<<what baktun interval was considered to be THE World Age
creation interval>>   That little word "the" invokes an entire world
of assumptions and arguments.
I don't think that 20 Baktuns was considered
THE World Age creation interval.   (There may in fact have been
*no* "world age creation interval", though I'm not arguing that
either, it has to be argued pro and con separately for the Maya,
without disregarding the other Central Mexican evidence.)
But I similarly don't see why the occurrence of 13.0.0.0.0
in a text shows us that 13 Baktuns was THE World Age 
creation interval.   Just as the occurence of 20 Baktuns in a text
did not show that was THE World Age creation interval.
Much more is needed to argue for that hypothesis.

There appears to be agreement among analysts that there is only
*a single* inscription so far known which uses 13.0.0.0.0 
and which refers to a 4 Ajaw 3 K'ank'in calendar round, 
thus the one in 2012 AD.   
It is on Torguguero Monument 6.   
Another correspondent has also said this is the only one.

Otherwise, 13.0.0.0.0 refers exclusively (?) to 4 Ajaw 8 Kumk'u,
which is 3114 BC.

***


It may well be that no baktun interval was considered to be 
"THE World Age creation interval",
in most texts and in most iconography, most of the time.
For each baktun interval we observe referenced, we need to
individually consider whether it was considered to be the
completion of any larger time span larger than a K'atun, 
let alone a World Age.

To show purely from calendric sequence that it was considered
the length of a world age, we would have to show that the next
K'atun after 13.0.0.0.0 was 0.1.0.0.0, 
rather than 13.1.0.0.0 on the way to 14.0.0.0.0,
or something similar to that.
That line of evidence is often not available to us, which does 
not disprove the hypothesis, because it would be unfair to
demand that such evidence always be present,
but it does show a weakness in our arguments, a possible vulnerability.

And don't be fooled by the translation 
"completion of the 12th K'atun" or "of 12 K'atuns"
to refer to 9.12.0.0.0, for example.   That does not mean that
12 K'atuns (12.0.0.0) was considered a World Age.
If we do not conclude that for such a small interval, 
then we must also argue it separately in each example 
for a large interval like 10 or 13 Baktuns or 1 Pictun.   
Why is 1 Pictun not considered a "World Age"?
Making such arguments is one part of the work John Major Jenkins
has been occupying himself with.   Whether he brings together
enough patterns to convince people of his several hypotheses
is not a question I am addressing at all.   That is for others to judge.

So yes, the verb used in a very common Mayan expression
for arriving at the end of a round time period is often
translated as "completion" of that time period.   
But it would sometimes better be translated as "arrived at the end" 
of that time period, or simultaneously at the end of several time
periods of varying sizes when not specified.
That is how we most often convey a similar meaning in English, 
to the extent that we have similar meanings.
That Mayan glyph therefore does not translate directly to the 
"completion of a World Age" in the sense many use it.   
That involves a considerable leap.
The "World Age" is an extra introduction by the analyst in
most such cases, and needs to be argued for separately
in each case.

***

I also agree with John Major Jenkins that one must use 
archaeology, astronomy, iconography, mythology, calendrics,
and explicit hieroglyphic texts which can involve all of these
subjects.   Larger sets of patterns derived from all of these fields
may support further conclusions.   I simply urge that people 
should best not read into records information which is not
in them.   

It is quite another operation to lay out patterns of factual data
(*not* imposing an interpretation so as to confuse facts with wishes), 
and then analyze the patterns to argue for novel 
interpretations and conclusions.   
But this argument from patterns is an argument on how
we should fill gaps when we *do not have* direct evidence,
and thus it is unusually important in such contexts to
keep the facts still visible, not hidden in
verbiage assuming the very conclusion which is being argued for.

I cannot agree that iconography should be referred to
as "texts".   That is only confusing.   Iconography contains valuable
information, but not all information comes in the form of text.
Texts are more explicit than iconography in some ways, 
and iconography is more explicit in other ways.

Astronomy is still greatly neglected, and there is as yet no
systematic survey of all Mayan texts to estimate which dates
are purely historical, vs. which dates are contrived to achieve
some reference to astronomy.   All contributions to this are
a good thing.   Eventually, we will be able to be more 
empirical about this.

It is very good to have many eyes and perspectives looking
at these things, and that includes John Major Jenkins and
anyone else.

Best wishes,
Lloyd

Lloyd Anderson
Ecological Linguistics
PO Box 15156
Washington DC 20003
ecoling at aol.com
202-547-7683



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