[Aztlan] Mayas desaparecieron por cambio en clima de ciudades Aztlan Digest, Vol 28, Issue 17

Thu Mar 20 11:07:25 CDT 2008

Hola a Todos!!
   Me gustaría decir que a pesar de los pueblos indígenas existentes hoy en día, podríamos decir que ninguno de ellos conservan las tradiciones ancestrales. LAs trdiciones que vemos celebran hoy en día, son el resultado de los años de colonialismo impuesto. Sincretismo?... No.. personalmente, opino que, al menos en el mundo maya no existió tal fenómeno inventado por occidente. Acaso los mayas entendieron el significado de Alma?, o Infierno?... En el cristianismo estos términos son muy diferentes y están muy alejados de lo que es en la mitología maya.
  Desgraciadamente, todos los gobiernos después de la Colonia hasta la actualidad han hecho ver que el ser indígena, o hablar las lenguas (distintas al castellano) sea mal visto. Las clases altas de estos países sueñan con parecerse a los blancos del norte... Lo que crea un gran abismo entre la misma población de un mismo país... Hablemos de México, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, etc... Es muy penoso ver como estamos destruyendo una gran cultura como la Maya.

> From: aztlan-request en lists.famsi.org> Subject: Aztlan Digest, Vol 28, Issue 17> To: aztlan en lists.famsi.org> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:00:02 -0500> > Send Aztlan mailing list submissions to> aztlan en lists.famsi.org> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> aztlan-request en lists.famsi.org> > You can reach the person managing the list at> aztlan-owner en lists.famsi.org> > When replying, please change the Subject line of your email to match> the exact topic being discussed, and delete all but the most important> text from previous messages.> > > When replying, please remove all topics not related to your reply.> > Today's Topics:> > 1. ARCHAEOLOGY CHANNEL NEW VIDEO ON THE MAYA AND THE MIRADOR> BASIN (michael ruggeri)> 2. UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE (michael ruggeri)> 3. Mayas desaparecieron (Nick Hopkins)> 4. Re: Mayas desaparecieron por cambio en clima de ciudades> ( Diego V?squez Monterroso )> 5. ANCIENT PACIFIC COAST TRADE REPLICATED (michael ruggeri)> 6. Re: UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE (Doug Weller)> 7. Re: Mayas desaparecieron por cambio en clima de ciudades> (Henry Avila)> 8. Re: UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE (Collins, Lori)> 9. Re: ANCIENT PACIFIC COAST TRADE REPLICATED (Benjamin Carter)> > > --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**> > Message: 1> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:29:10 -0500> From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri en mac.com>> Subject: [Aztlan] ARCHAEOLOGY CHANNEL NEW VIDEO ON THE MAYA AND THE> MIRADOR BASIN> To: aztlan en lists.famsi.org> Message-ID: <B00FC852-910A-4058-9FE4-F148CDB3D232 en mac.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed> > > Listeros,> > A New free video on the Maya and the Mirador Basin> > http://www.archaeologychannel.org/> > Mike Ruggeri> > > > > > Mike Ruggeri's Maya World> http://tinyurl.com/ypkq2v> > Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links> http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**> > Message: 2> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0500> From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri en mac.com>> Subject: [Aztlan] UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE> To: aztlan en lists.famsi.org> Message-ID: <E5D8BCE9-7A56-4D40-89F8-E5FF0504E0F3 en mac.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed> > > Listeros,> > The important archaeological site known as the Miami Circle was saved > from developers by the state of Florida in 2000 and a cultural museum > will go up on the site. It is probably the work of the nomadic > Tequesta culture. The radio-carbin dates place this site at 2000 > years old. Among the items excavated are shell tools, stone axe > heads, human teeth, a shark skeleton, dolphin skull and a sea turtle.> Two galena artifacts were found and galena comes from Missouri, the > Mississippi Valley, Illinois and Kentucky and was used for white > pigment and to make beads and pendants. The exact source of the Miami > Circle galena is Central Missouri.> Tools have been found made from deer feet and shark teeth and a > decorated bone artifact with engraved circles.> > News from Indian Country has this update with photos on the site and > its circular posts;> http://indiancountrynews.net/index.php? > option=com_content&task=view&id=2812&Itemid=116> > Here is a tiny URL;> http://tinyurl.com/2yl9pl> > > Mike Ruggeri's Mississippians and Mound Builders including the Adena > and Hopewell> http://tinyurl.com/276d8z> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**> > Message: 3> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:30:24 -0500> From: Nick Hopkins <nhopkins en mailer.fsu.edu>> Subject: [Aztlan] Mayas desaparecieron> To: Henry Avila <hwavila en tutopia.com>> Cc: Aztlan <Aztlan en lists.famsi.org>> Message-ID: <6DCB54C3-12E9-43BE-836F-FCB88C1BE8EC en mailer.fsu.edu>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed> > Al contrario, Henry. Claro que no es lo mismo despu?s de tantos > siglos, pero hay muchos aspectos de la(s) cultura(s) maya(s) actual > (es) que reflejan de manera tajante la cultura cl?sica. En mi campo > de especializaci?n, es notable que la estructura de una narraci?n, > sobre todo si se trata de un mito sagrado, demuestra muchos elementos > que se ven tambi?n en los textos cl?sicos. A prop?sito, fue por > conocer los textos modernos que pudimos entender la importancia de > varios elementos ret?ricos en los textos cl?sicos, tales como la > sint?xis anormal que acompa?a el evento principal de una narraci?n. > Es s?lo un ejemplo, hay miles m?s. No olvide que la lengua misma une > a los mayas modernos con sus ancestros.> > Nicol?s Hopkins> > On Mar 18, 2008, at 11:08 AM, Henry Avila wrote:> > > talvez lo ?nico que una a los mayas del cl?sico con los mayas > > contempor?neos> > son los genes por lo dem?s son absolutamente distintos.> > > > --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**> > Message: 4> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:02:19 -0600> From: " Diego V?squez Monterroso " <cinco.eb en gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Mayas desaparecieron por cambio en clima de> ciudades> To: "Henry Avila" <hwavila en tutopia.com>> Cc: LISTA AZTLAN <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>> Message-ID:> <532cdec80803181902o2ccfe39aked49cd6028abdb45 en mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1> > Henry:> > El argumento de los genes es el que se ha usado como sustituto para la> desaparici?n cultural de los mayas. Dicen "no desaparecieron, pero solo sus> genes heredaron". Eso es lamentable, porque impl?citamente asumen que son> un tipo de "raza degenerada" argumento que estuvo muy de moda en Guatemala a> finales del siglo XIX e inicios del XX, con ide?logos del nacionalismo local> como Batres J?uregui y, lamentablemente, Miguel ?ngel Asturias. Ese tipo de> argumentos coincidieron con la creaci?n de la naci?n guatemalteca, y> perduran hasta la actualidad. As? que documentales e "investigaciones" como> esas solo refuerzan impl?citamente esa idea.> > Por cierto, a Nick Hopkins muchas gracias por la evidencia ling??stica,> quiz? la prueba m?s conocida y difundida (pero no la ?nica) de la> continuidad cultural de los mayas. Lo quieran o no, ah? est?n las pruebas> en la propia cotidianidad de los pueblos.> > Saludos cordiales,> > > --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**> > Message: 5> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:24:58 -0500> From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri en mac.com>> Subject: [Aztlan] ANCIENT PACIFIC COAST TRADE REPLICATED> To: aztlan en lists.famsi.org> Message-ID: <E067DC60-D443-473D-AC17-49D52B86345E en mac.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed> > > Listeros,> > > Researchers and students at MIT built a replica of a raft that could > engage in trading voyages along the Pacific coast of the Americas and > tested it to stability and seaworthiness and cargo capacity made of > the same materials as found in Ecuador. They found that shipworms > were the biggest problem and they live along the Pacific coast and > devour the balsa wood rafts quickly. The researchers found that they > could make two round trip voyages between Peru and Western Mexico > before the raft needed replacing. The rafts cannot be left in harbor > long since this is where the shipworms enter.> > They found the voyages would take 6 to 8 weeks and could only be > taken when trade winds were favorable and as a result traders would > have to stay at their destinations for 6 months to a year each trip. > This would have allowed for a transfer of knowledge between widely > separated groups. The rafts had a capacity of 10 to 30 tons, the same > capacity as the barges that once plied the Erie Canal.> > This is the first analysis to use modern engineering techniques to > determine design parameters and constraints of ancient watercraft to > prove the feasibility of this kind of trade.> > > Innovations Report has the story here;> http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/verkehr_logistik/ > bericht-105942.html> > I have made a tiny URL;> http://tinyurl.com/32awn9> > Mike Ruggeri> > > > > Mike Ruggeri's Ancient West Mexico from the Pre-Classic to the Tarascans> http://tinyurl.com/32uo5m> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**> > Message: 6> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:25:46 +0000> From: Doug Weller <dweller en ramtops.co.uk>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE> To: aztlan en lists.famsi.org> Message-ID: <337967415.20080319152546 en ramtops.co.uk>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1> > Hi all> I don't know if people have seen this site:> http://www.bwpowell.com/archeology/miamimajor/miamimajor.html> maintained by someone who worked on the Miami Circle.> (I was born and raised not far from it but long before it was> discovered).> > Doug> > -- > -- > Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated> Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com> Doug's Skeptical Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk> > > > > --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**> > Message: 7> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:26:03 -0600> From: "Henry Avila" <hwavila en tutopia.com>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Mayas desaparecieron por cambio en clima de> ciudades> Cc: "'LISTA AZTLAN'" <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>> Message-ID: <200803191626.m2JGQHES008198 en www.famsi.org>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"> > > > > > Diego:> > > > Lo que a m? me parece lamentable es que la comunidad maya actual est?> avergonzada de su identidad y quieran ocultarla. En la ciudad preguntarle a> una persona si es maya es un insulto. Yo mismo tengo vecinos que hablan> Cackchiquel, tienen caracter?sticas mayas, pero lo niegan rotundamente.> > > > Ese es el sentimiento que percibo en las personas que veo tanto en la ciudad> como en los pueblos del interior de Guatemala, los Mayas quieren dejar de> ser Mayas y pasar a ser cristianos. Por eso yo pienso que la cultura maya> antigua (del precl?sico al poscl?sico) son una cultura aparte a la cultura> maya contempor?nea (o sea la que vive actualmente).> > > > Saludos cordiales,> > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > De: Diego V?squez Monterroso [mailto:cinco.eb en gmail.com] > Enviado el: Martes, 18 de Marzo de 2008 08:02 p.m.> Para: Henry Avila> CC: LISTA AZTLAN> Asunto: Re: [Aztlan] Mayas desaparecieron por cambio en clima de ciudades> > > > Henry:> > El argumento de los genes es el que se ha usado como sustituto para la> desaparici?n cultural de los mayas. Dicen "no desaparecieron, pero solo sus> genes heredaron". Eso es lamentable, porque impl?citamente asumen que son> un tipo de "raza degenerada" argumento que estuvo muy de moda en Guatemala a> finales del siglo XIX e inicios del XX, con ide?logos del nacionalismo local> como Batres J?uregui y, lamentablemente, Miguel ?ngel Asturias. Ese tipo de> argumentos coincidieron con la creaci?n de la naci?n guatemalteca, y> perduran hasta la actualidad. As? que documentales e "investigaciones" como> esas solo refuerzan impl?citamente esa idea. > > Por cierto, a Nick Hopkins muchas gracias por la evidencia ling??stica,> quiz? la prueba m?s conocida y difundida (pero no la ?nica) de la> continuidad cultural de los mayas. Lo quieran o no, ah? est?n las pruebas> en la propia cotidianidad de los pueblos.> > Saludos cordiales,> > > > --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**> > Message: 8> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:26:17 -0400> From: "Collins, Lori" <lcollins en cas.usf.edu>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE> To: <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>> Message-ID:> <845C83C5F18D3D418333382DE34B8EFD08123C en MAILBOX2.cas.usf.edu>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"> > Greetings: > > For those interested, myself and Travis Doering conducted three-dimensional scanning of the Miami Circle and the 'Royal Palm Circle' sites located just across the river from one another. I am attaching our article which was the cover feature story in the Florida Anthropologist Miami Circle Special Edition. Also, you might want to visit the State of Florida website with all the details and some interactive functions at: http://www.flheritage.com/archaeology/projects/miamicircle/ > > There are many applications in Mesoamerica for this type of documentation.> > Best,> Lori> > <mailto:lcollins en cas.usf.edu> > > Lori Collins, Ph.D.> Instructor/Co-coordinator> Alliance for Integrated Spatial Technologies> University of South Florida> Department of Anthropology> (813)974-0613 lcollins en cas.usf.edu <mailto:lcollins en cas.usf.edu> > > Web Site: http://AIST.cas.usf.edu <http://aist.cas.usf.edu/> > Flickr Acct: http://www.flickr.com/photos/aist/sets/ <http://www.flickr.com/photos/aist/sets/> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/aist/> > > ________________________________> > From: aztlan-bounces en lists.famsi.org on behalf of Doug Weller> Sent: Wed 3/19/2008 11:25 AM> To: aztlan en lists.famsi.org> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE> > > > Hi all> I don't know if people have seen this site:> http://www.bwpowell.com/archeology/miamimajor/miamimajor.html> maintained by someone who worked on the Miami Circle.> (I was born and raised not far from it but long before it was> discovered).> > Doug> > --> --> Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated> Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com <http://www.hallofmaat.com/> > Doug's Skeptical Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk <http://www.ramtops.co.uk/> > > > _______________________________________________> Aztlan mailing list> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan> Click here to post a message Aztlan en lists.famsi.org> Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php> > > > > > --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**> > Message: 9> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:26:29 -0400> From: Benjamin Carter <spondylus.princeps en gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] ANCIENT PACIFIC COAST TRADE REPLICATED> To:> andean-and-amazonian-archaeology-discussion-group-owner en googlegroups.com> > Cc: Aztlan <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>, Andean and Amazonian Archaeology> Discussion Group> <andean-and-amazonian-archaeology-discussion-group en googlegroups.com>> Message-ID: <47E13EB5.7010506 en gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed> > All,> > The question of whether or not South Americans were able to travel to > Central America/Mexico is one of great interest. However, it is quite > clear that the question of whether or not something is possible is > different than whether or not it happened. Other researchers have > already shown much of what is concluded in this short article (I look > forward to reading the scholarly article in the near future). I highly > suggest folks take a look at the work of Cameron Smith, who built a > full-size model and sailed from Salango, Ecuador up the coast (not a > miniature to float in the Charles- a useful project for students, but > completely not scientifically valid). Such vessels have been replicated > numerous times, the most famous being Thor Heyerdahl's Kon Tiki. Smith > is the one that determined that shipworms were a major issue (though > this was probably already known by local fisherman and sailors). He > determined that it was likely that, when in harbor, boats would have > been pulled up on the shore to dry out, which would have prevented > waterlogging and killed off the shipworms.Smith has published much of > this work online- I suggest a Google search to find out more.> > Similarly, the potential voyage has already been modeled by Richard > Callaghan (Antiquity 2003).> > A couple of notes of relevant information about this argument. The > vessels (if they did indeed contact Mesoamerica) need not have come from > what is now modern-day Ecuador. Clinton Edwards, in many articles and at > least one book, solidly established that such sailing rafts were also > present in Peru, though mainly from Sechura and north.> > Similarly, it is often indicated that balsas are only present in > Ecuador. Unless there is something that I am missing, this does not > appear to be true. Balsa would have been available on the flanks of the > Andes almost down into Chile and certainly to the north into Colombia. > It is a fairly widely distributed genus. In fact, the Chongon-Colonche > Hills, the purported source of the balsas because this is the only > location near the alleged ports of trade (the major example being > Salango/Puerto Lopez area) where the trees grew, is not a great source > of balsa. Balsa trees do grow in these hills and they were floated down > local rivers during the El Nino of 1998, but the trees are much more > plentiful elsewhere. This does not mean they were not available in > sufficient quantity nor that they were not used, only that we shouldn't > limit ourselves to this area.> > Lastly, since Jorge Marcos seminal article on Spondylus, it has been > assumed that it drove these voyages to the north. The Ecuadorian > Spondylus were in such high demand that they were overfished, forcing > trades to go ever further to the north. First, Spondylus is also > available on the north coast of Peru, a fact that has been known for a > long time, but repeatedly ignored (or glossed over). Second, his > interpretations were based upon the difficulty of acquiring Spondylus, > which supposedly lived at such depths so as to require professional > divers and evidence of overfishing. In my own research, I have found > that Spondylus (both S. princeps and S. calcifer) are actually available > in relatively shallow depths and may not have been difficult to harvest. > Similarly, in an exhaustive literature search as well as working in the > area for 10 years, I have identified no DEFINITIVE evidence for > overfishing Spondylus on the coast of Ecuador throughout prehistory. Of > course, that doesn't mean it didn't happen, only that we don't have the > necessary evidence to support a hypothesis based upon overfishing.> > Could Ecuadorians (or Peruvians) sail to Mexico? It appears that it was > possible. However, did they actually do it? I think that remains to be > proven. Yes, I am aware of a number of arguments about the similarity of > textiles, dogs, shaft tombs, etc. between Ecuador and West Mexico, but I > think these need to be reassessed. I won't say that I can argue with all > of these arguments yet, but many of them appear to have conflated time > such that connections appear to be similar, but in fact are not. Also, I > think that they have severely ignored Middle America. I think many of > the answers lie there.> > Ben Carter> > michaelruggeri en mac.com wrote:> > Listeros,> >> >> > Researchers and students at MIT built a replica of a raft that could> > engage in trading voyages along the Pacific coast of the Americas and> > tested it to stability and seaworthiness and cargo capacity made of> > the same materials as found in Ecuador. They found that shipworms were> > the biggest problem and they live along the Pacific coast and devour> > the balsa wood rafts quickly. The researchers found that they could> > make two round trip voyages between Peru and Western Mexico before the> > raft needed replacing. The rafts cannot be left in harbor long since> > this is where the shipworms enter.> >> > They found the voyages would take 6 to 8 weeks and could only be taken> > when trade winds were favorable and as a result traders would have to> > stay at their destinations for 6 months to a year each trip. This> > would have allowed for a transfer of knowledge between widely> > separated groups. The rafts had a capacity of 10 to 30 tons, the same> > capacity as the barges that once plied the Erie Canal.> >> > This is the first analysis to use modern engineering techniques to> > determine design parameters and constraints of ancient watercraft to> > prove the feasibility of this kind of trade.> >> >> > Innovations Report has the story here;> > http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/verkehr_logistik/bericht-105942.html> >> > I have made a tiny URL;> > http://tinyurl.com/32awn9> >> > Mike Ruggeri> >> >> >> > > > > --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**> > _______________________________________________> Aztlan mailing list> Click here to send a message Aztlan en lists.famsi.org> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan> > > End of Aztlan Digest, Vol 28, Issue 17> **************************************
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