[Aztlan] Mayas desaparecieron por cambio en clima de ciudades Aztlan Digest, Vol 28, Issue 17
Hube Smith
husmith at charter.net
Thu Mar 20 12:09:42 CDT 2008
I would counsel caution regarding tradition among the Yucatec Maya. For one
thing, they certainly DO hold beliefs
and engage in practices which are traditional. Also, they conserve the
Yucatec Maya language within an immense
pool of persons, perhaps a million of them. This makes them an astoundingly
significant intact language group in
the Americas.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Saude Pavón" <pavonsaude at hotmail.com>
To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Mayas desaparecieron por cambio en clima de ciudades
Aztlan Digest, Vol 28, Issue 17
Hola a Todos!!
Me gustaría decir que a pesar de los pueblos indígenas existentes hoy en
día, podríamos decir que ninguno de ellos conservan las tradiciones
ancestrales. LAs trdiciones que vemos celebran hoy en día, son el resultado
de los años de colonialismo impuesto. Sincretismo?... No.. personalmente,
opino que, al menos en el mundo maya no existió tal fenómeno inventado por
occidente. Acaso los mayas entendieron el significado de Alma?, o
Infierno?... En el cristianismo estos términos son muy diferentes y están
muy alejados de lo que es en la mitología maya.
Desgraciadamente, todos los gobiernos después de la Colonia hasta la
actualidad han hecho ver que el ser indígena, o hablar las lenguas
(distintas al castellano) sea mal visto. Las clases altas de estos países
sueñan con parecerse a los blancos del norte... Lo que crea un gran abismo
entre la misma población de un mismo país... Hablemos de México, Guatemala,
El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, etc... Es muy penoso ver como estamos
destruyendo una gran cultura como la Maya.
> From: aztlan-request at lists.famsi.org> Subject: Aztlan Digest, Vol 28,
> Issue 17> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008
> 12:00:02 -0500> > Send Aztlan mailing list submissions to>
> aztlan at lists.famsi.org> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide
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> send a message with subject or body 'help' to>
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> Subject line of your email to match> the exact topic being discussed, and
> delete all but the most important> text from previous messages.> > > When
> replying, please remove all topics not related to your reply.> > Today's
> Topics:> > 1. ARCHAEOLOGY CHANNEL NEW VIDEO ON THE MAYA AND THE MIRADOR>
> BASIN (michael ruggeri)> 2. UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE (michael ruggeri)>
> 3. Mayas desaparecieron (Nick Hopkins)> 4. Re: Mayas desaparecieron por
> cambio en clima de!
ciudades> ( Diego V?squez Monterroso )> 5. ANCIENT PACIFIC COAST TRADE
REPLICATED (michael ruggeri)> 6. Re: UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE (Doug
Weller)> 7. Re: Mayas desaparecieron por cambio en clima de ciudades> (Henry
Avila)> 8. Re: UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE (Collins, Lori)> 9. Re: ANCIENT
PACIFIC COAST TRADE REPLICATED (Benjamin Carter)> >
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**>
> Message: 1> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:29:10 -0500> From: michael ruggeri
<michaelruggeri at mac.com>> Subject: [Aztlan] ARCHAEOLOGY CHANNEL NEW VIDEO ON
THE MAYA AND THE> MIRADOR BASIN> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Message-ID:
<B00FC852-910A-4058-9FE4-F148CDB3D232 at mac.com>> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=-ASCII; format=owed> > > Listeros,> > A New free!
video on the Maya and the Mirador Basin> > http://www.archaeologychan
nel.org/> > Mike Ruggeri> > > > > > Mike Ruggeri's Maya World>
http://tinyurl.com/ypkq2v> > Mike Ruggeri's Maya Archaeology News and Links>
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIkeRuggerisMaya/index.html> > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**>
> Message: 2> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0500> From: michael ruggeri
<michaelruggeri at mac.com>> Subject: [Aztlan] UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE> To:
aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Message-ID:
<E5D8BCE9-7A56-4D40-89F8-E5FF0504E0F3 at mac.com>> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=-ASCII; delsp=s; format=owed> > > Listeros,> > The important
archaeological site known as the Miami Circle was saved > from developers by
the state of Florida in 2000 and a cultural museum > will go up on the site.
It is probably the work of the nomadic > Tequesta culture. The radio-carbin
dates place this site at 2000 > years old. Among the items e!
xcavated are shell tools, stone axe > heads, human teeth, a shark skeleton,
dolphin skull and a sea turtle.> Two galena artifacts were found and galena
comes from Missouri, the > Mississippi Valley, Illinois and Kentucky and was
used for white > pigment and to make beads and pendants. The exact source of
the Miami > Circle galena is Central Missouri.> Tools have been found made
from deer feet and shark teeth and a > decorated bone artifact with engraved
circles.> > News from Indian Country has this update with photos on the site
and > its circular posts;> http://indiancountrynews.net/index.php? >
option=m_content&task=ew&id(12&Itemid6> > Here is a tiny URL;>
http://tinyurl.com/2yl9pl> > > Mike Ruggeri's Mississippians and Mound
Builders including the Adena > and Hopewell> http://tinyurl.com/276d8z> > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**>
> Message: 3> Date:!
Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:30:24 -0500> From: Nick Hopkins <nhopkins at mailer.
fsu.edu>> Subject: [Aztlan] Mayas desaparecieron> To: Henry Avila
<hwavila at tutopia.com>> Cc: Aztlan <Aztlan at lists.famsi.org>> Message-ID:
<6DCB54C3-12E9-43BE-836F-FCB88C1BE8EC at mailer.fsu.edu>> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=O-8859-1; delsp=s; format=owed> > Al contrario, Henry.
Claro que no es lo mismo despu?s de tantos > siglos, pero hay muchos
aspectos de la(s) cultura(s) maya(s) actual > (es) que reflejan de manera
tajante la cultura cl?sica. En mi campo > de especializaci?n, es notable que
la estructura de una narraci?n, > sobre todo si se trata de un mito sagrado,
demuestra muchos elementos > que se ven tambi?n en los textos cl?sicos. A
prop?sito, fue por > conocer los textos modernos que pudimos entender la
importancia de > varios elementos ret?ricos en los textos cl?sicos, tales
como la > sint?xis anormal que acompa?a el evento principal de una
narraci?n. > Es s?lo un ejemplo, hay miles m?s. No olvide que la lengua
misma une > a los mayas modernos con sus anc!
estros.> > Nicol?s Hopkins> > On Mar 18, 2008, at 11:08 AM, Henry Avila
wrote:> > > talvez lo ?nico que una a los mayas del cl?sico con los mayas >
> contempor?neos> > son los genes por lo dem?s son absolutamente distintos.>
> >
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**>
> Message: 4> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:02:19 -0600> From: " Diego V?squez
Monterroso " <cinco.eb at gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Mayas
desaparecieron por cambio en clima de> ciudades> To: "Henry Avila"
<hwavila at tutopia.com>> Cc: LISTA AZTLAN <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>>
Message-ID:> <532cdec80803181902o2ccfe39aked49cd6028abdb45 at mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=O-8859-1> > Henry:> > El argumento de los
genes es el que se ha usado como sustituto para la> desaparici?n cultural de
los mayas. Dicen "no desaparecieron, pero solo sus> genes heredaron". Eso es
lamentable, porque impl?citamente asumen que son> un tip!
o de "raza degenerada" argumento que estuvo muy de moda en Guatemala a
> finales del siglo XIX e inicios del XX, con ide?logos del nacionalismo
> local> como Batres J?uregui y, lamentablemente, Miguel ?ngel Asturias. Ese
> tipo de> argumentos coincidieron con la creaci?n de la naci?n
> guatemalteca, y> perduran hasta la actualidad. As? que documentales e
> "investigaciones" como> esas solo refuerzan impl?citamente esa idea.> >
> Por cierto, a Nick Hopkins muchas gracias por la evidencia ling??stica,>
> quiz? la prueba m?s conocida y difundida (pero no la ?nica) de la>
> continuidad cultural de los mayas. Lo quieran o no, ah? est?n las pruebas>
> en la propia cotidianidad de los pueblos.> > Saludos cordiales,> >
> > --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**>
> > Message: 5> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:24:58 -0500> From: michael ruggeri
> <michaelruggeri at mac.com>> Subject: [Aztlan] ANCIENT PACIFIC COAST TRADE
> REPLICATED> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Message-ID:
> <E067DC60-D443-473D-AC17-49D52B8!
6345E at mac.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=-ASCII; delsp=s;
format=owed> > > Listeros,> > > Researchers and students at MIT built a
replica of a raft that could > engage in trading voyages along the Pacific
coast of the Americas and > tested it to stability and seaworthiness and
cargo capacity made of > the same materials as found in Ecuador. They found
that shipworms > were the biggest problem and they live along the Pacific
coast and > devour the balsa wood rafts quickly. The researchers found that
they > could make two round trip voyages between Peru and Western Mexico >
before the raft needed replacing. The rafts cannot be left in harbor > long
since this is where the shipworms enter.> > They found the voyages would
take 6 to 8 weeks and could only be > taken when trade winds were favorable
and as a result traders would > have to stay at their destinations for 6
months to a year each trip. > This would have allowed for a transfer of
knowledge between widely!
> separated groups. The rafts had a capacity of 10 to 30 tons, the sa
me > capacity as the barges that once plied the Erie Canal.> > This is the
first analysis to use modern engineering techniques to > determine design
parameters and constraints of ancient watercraft to > prove the feasibility
of this kind of trade.> > > Innovations Report has the story here;>
http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/verkehr_logistik/ >
bericht-105942.html> > I have made a tiny URL;> http://tinyurl.com/32awn9> >
Mike Ruggeri> > > > > Mike Ruggeri's Ancient West Mexico from the
Pre-Classic to the Tarascans> http://tinyurl.com/32uo5m> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**>
> Message: 6> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:25:46 +0000> From: Doug Weller
<dweller at ramtops.co.uk>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE>
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Message-ID:
<337967415.20080319152546 at ramtops.co.uk>> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=o-8859-1> >!
Hi all> I don't know if people have seen this site:>
http://www.bwpowell.com/archeology/miamimajor/miamimajor.html> maintained by
someone who worked on the Miami Circle.> (I was born and raised not far from
it but long before it was> discovered).> > Doug> > -- > -- > Doug Weller
Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated> Director and Moderator The Hall of
Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com> Doug's Skeptical Archaeology Site:
http://www.ramtops.co.uk> > > >
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**>
> Message: 7> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:26:03 -0600> From: "Henry Avila"
<hwavila at tutopia.com>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Mayas desaparecieron por cambio
en clima de> ciudades> Cc: "'LISTA AZTLAN'" <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>>
Message-ID: <200803191626.m2JGQHES008198 at www.famsi.org>> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=so-8859-1"> > > > > > Diego:> > > > Lo que a m? me
parece lamentable es que la comunidad maya act!
ual est?> avergonzada de su identidad y quieran ocultarla. En la ciuda
d preguntarle a> una persona si es maya es un insulto. Yo mismo tengo
vecinos que hablan> Cackchiquel, tienen caracter?sticas mayas, pero lo
niegan rotundamente.> > > > Ese es el sentimiento que percibo en las
personas que veo tanto en la ciudad> como en los pueblos del interior de
Guatemala, los Mayas quieren dejar de> ser Mayas y pasar a ser cristianos.
Por eso yo pienso que la cultura maya> antigua (del precl?sico al
poscl?sico) son una cultura aparte a la cultura> maya contempor?nea (o sea
la que vive actualmente).> > > > Saludos cordiales,> > > > > > > > > > > >
_____ > > De: Diego V?squez Monterroso [mailto:cinco.eb at gmail.com] > Enviado
el: Martes, 18 de Marzo de 2008 08:02 p.m.> Para: Henry Avila> CC: LISTA
AZTLAN> Asunto: Re: [Aztlan] Mayas desaparecieron por cambio en clima de
ciudades> > > > Henry:> > El argumento de los genes es el que se ha usado
como sustituto para la> desaparici?n cultural de los mayas. Dicen "no
desaparecieron, pero solo sus> genes heredaron".!
Eso es lamentable, porque impl?citamente asumen que son> un tipo de "raza
degenerada" argumento que estuvo muy de moda en Guatemala a> finales del
siglo XIX e inicios del XX, con ide?logos del nacionalismo local> como
Batres J?uregui y, lamentablemente, Miguel ?ngel Asturias. Ese tipo de>
argumentos coincidieron con la creaci?n de la naci?n guatemalteca, y>
perduran hasta la actualidad. As? que documentales e "investigaciones" como>
esas solo refuerzan impl?citamente esa idea. > > Por cierto, a Nick Hopkins
muchas gracias por la evidencia ling??stica,> quiz? la prueba m?s conocida y
difundida (pero no la ?nica) de la> continuidad cultural de los mayas. Lo
quieran o no, ah? est?n las pruebas> en la propia cotidianidad de los
pueblos.> > Saludos cordiales,> > >
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**>
> Message: 8> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:26:17 -0400> From: "Collins, Lori"
<lcollins at cas.usf.!
edu>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] UPDATE ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE> To: <aztlan at li
sts.famsi.org>> Message-ID:>
<845C83C5F18D3D418333382DE34B8EFD08123C at MAILBOX2.cas.usf.edu>> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=so-8859-1"> > Greetings: > > For those interested,
myself and Travis Doering conducted three-dimensional scanning of the Miami
Circle and the 'Royal Palm Circle' sites located just across the river from
one another. I am attaching our article which was the cover feature story in
the Florida Anthropologist Miami Circle Special Edition. Also, you might
want to visit the State of Florida website with all the details and some
interactive functions at:
http://www.flheritage.com/archaeology/projects/miamicircle/ > > There are
many applications in Mesoamerica for this type of documentation.> > Best,>
Lori> > <mailto:lcollins at cas.usf.edu> > > Lori Collins, Ph.D.>
Instructor/Co-coordinator> Alliance for Integrated Spatial Technologies>
University of South Florida> Department of Anthropology> (813)974-0613
lcollins at cas.usf.edu <mailto:lcollins at cas.usf.edu> > !
> Web Site: http://AIST.cas.usf.edu <http://aist.cas.usf.edu/> > Flickr
Acct: http://www.flickr.com/photos/aist/sets/
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/aist/sets/>
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/aist/> > > ________________________________> >
From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org on behalf of Doug Weller> Sent: Wed
3/19/2008 11:25 AM> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] UPDATE
ON THE MIAMI CIRCLE> > > > Hi all> I don't know if people have seen this
site:> http://www.bwpowell.com/archeology/miamimajor/miamimajor.html>
maintained by someone who worked on the Miami Circle.> (I was born and
raised not far from it but long before it was> discovered).> > Doug>
> --> --> Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated> Director and
Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
<http://www.hallofmaat.com/> > Doug's Skeptical Archaeology Site:
http://www.ramtops.co.uk <http://www.ramtops.co.uk/> > > >
_______________________________________________> Aztlan mailing li!
st> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan> Click here to post a
message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Click to view Calendar of Events
http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php> > > > >
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**>
> Message: 9> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:26:29 -0400> From: Benjamin Carter
<spondylus.princeps at gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] ANCIENT PACIFIC COAST
TRADE REPLICATED> To:>
andean-and-amazonian-archaeology-discussion-group-owner at googlegroups.com> >
Cc: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>, Andean and Amazonian Archaeology>
Discussion Group>
<andean-and-amazonian-archaeology-discussion-group at googlegroups.com>>
Message-ID: <47E13EB5.7010506 at gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=O-8859-1; format=owed> > All,> > The question of whether or not
South Americans were able to travel to > Central America/Mexico is one of
great interest. However, it is quite > clear that the question of whether or
not something is possible is > different t!
han whether or not it happened. Other researchers have > already shown much
of what is concluded in this short article (I look > forward to reading the
scholarly article in the near future). I highly > suggest folks take a look
at the work of Cameron Smith, who built a > full-size model and sailed from
Salango, Ecuador up the coast (not a > miniature to float in the Charles- a
useful project for students, but > completely not scientifically valid).
Such vessels have been replicated > numerous times, the most famous being
Thor Heyerdahl's Kon Tiki. Smith > is the one that determined that shipworms
were a major issue (though > this was probably already known by local
fisherman and sailors). He > determined that it was likely that, when in
harbor, boats would have > been pulled up on the shore to dry out, which
would have prevented > waterlogging and killed off the shipworms.Smith has
published much of > this work online- I suggest a Google search to find out
more.> > Similarl!
y, the potential voyage has already been modeled by Richard > Callagha
n (Antiquity 2003).> > A couple of notes of relevant information about this
argument. The > vessels (if they did indeed contact Mesoamerica) need not
have come from > what is now modern-day Ecuador. Clinton Edwards, in many
articles and at > least one book, solidly established that such sailing
rafts were also > present in Peru, though mainly from Sechura and north.> >
Similarly, it is often indicated that balsas are only present in > Ecuador.
Unless there is something that I am missing, this does not > appear to be
true. Balsa would have been available on the flanks of the > Andes almost
down into Chile and certainly to the north into Colombia. > It is a fairly
widely distributed genus. In fact, the Chongon-Colonche > Hills, the
purported source of the balsas because this is the only > location near the
alleged ports of trade (the major example being > Salango/Puerto Lopez area)
where the trees grew, is not a great source > of balsa. Balsa trees do grow
in these hills and t!
hey were floated down > local rivers during the El Nino of 1998, but the
trees are much more > plentiful elsewhere. This does not mean they were not
available in > sufficient quantity nor that they were not used, only that we
shouldn't > limit ourselves to this area.> > Lastly, since Jorge Marcos
seminal article on Spondylus, it has been > assumed that it drove these
voyages to the north. The Ecuadorian > Spondylus were in such high demand
that they were overfished, forcing > trades to go ever further to the north.
First, Spondylus is also > available on the north coast of Peru, a fact that
has been known for a > long time, but repeatedly ignored (or glossed over).
Second, his > interpretations were based upon the difficulty of acquiring
Spondylus, > which supposedly lived at such depths so as to require
professional > divers and evidence of overfishing. In my own research, I
have found > that Spondylus (both S. princeps and S. calcifer) are actually
available > in relative!
ly shallow depths and may not have been difficult to harvest. > Simila
rly, in an exhaustive literature search as well as working in the > area for
10 years, I have identified no DEFINITIVE evidence for > overfishing
Spondylus on the coast of Ecuador throughout prehistory. Of > course, that
doesn't mean it didn't happen, only that we don't have the > necessary
evidence to support a hypothesis based upon overfishing.> > Could
Ecuadorians (or Peruvians) sail to Mexico? It appears that it was >
possible. However, did they actually do it? I think that remains to be >
proven. Yes, I am aware of a number of arguments about the similarity of >
textiles, dogs, shaft tombs, etc. between Ecuador and West Mexico, but I >
think these need to be reassessed. I won't say that I can argue with all >
of these arguments yet, but many of them appear to have conflated time >
such that connections appear to be similar, but in fact are not. Also, I >
think that they have severely ignored Middle America. I think many of > the
answers lie there.> > Ben Carter> > micha!
elruggeri at mac.com wrote:> > Listeros,> >> >> > Researchers and students at
MIT built a replica of a raft that could> > engage in trading voyages along
the Pacific coast of the Americas and> > tested it to stability and
seaworthiness and cargo capacity made of> > the same materials as found in
Ecuador. They found that shipworms were> > the biggest problem and they live
along the Pacific coast and devour> > the balsa wood rafts quickly. The
researchers found that they could> > make two round trip voyages between
Peru and Western Mexico before the> > raft needed replacing. The rafts
cannot be left in harbor long since> > this is where the shipworms enter.>
>> > They found the voyages would take 6 to 8 weeks and could only be taken>
> when trade winds were favorable and as a result traders would have to> >
stay at their destinations for 6 months to a year each trip. This> > would
have allowed for a transfer of knowledge between widely> > separated groups.
The rafts had a capaci!
ty of 10 to 30 tons, the same> > capacity as the barges that once plie
d the Erie Canal.> >> > This is the first analysis to use modern engineering
techniques to> > determine design parameters and constraints of ancient
watercraft to> > prove the feasibility of this kind of trade.> >> >> >
Innovations Report has the story here;> >
http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/verkehr_logistik/bericht-105942.html>
>> > I have made a tiny URL;> > http://tinyurl.com/32awn9> >> > Mike
Ruggeri> >> >> >> > > >
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**>
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