[Aztlan] underground Maya Temple complex

Mon Nov 10 12:36:46 CST 2008

Malob Kin,

There are many other examples of maya constructions inside the peninsula
caves and cenotes, ranging from 19th century barricades, to much earlier
walls, ladders, rooms, altars and paths or walkways (not sacbeo'ob!), which
most haven't been published and can be interpreted in several manners.
The idea of a highland scribe refering to lowland cave systems is higly
unprobable. It's obvious that these natural formations were conceived as, or
related to, an underworld, probably connected to a common maya ideology
which afte centuries derived in the latter Popol Vuh. Actually, there are
many places in Yucatan where oral tradition refers to subterraneous roads
conecting with distant towns, specially with Mani. The concepts of a pyramid
temple built over a cave or a temple as an entrance to te underwolrd aren't
also  uncommon among the maya. Here, the lack of a systemathic registration
and classification project of these kind of underground constructions can
lead to fallacious assumptions, such as Guillermo de Anda's, who apparently
seeks "fame and fortune" with this "spectacular findings".

2008/11/10 Ryan Kashanipour <rykash at hotmail.com>

>
> Mark yetel tulakal:
>
> Skepticism does not seem misplaced here.  I've not seen the story in the
> World News Weekly--known just as The News by its many, many frightening
> readers--it is interesting to note the changes.  The original story from El
> Pais (url below) is notably different from The News and the AOL coverage.
>  No real surprise by the inconsistencies on any of this, but the historical
> sources used by de Alma are chronicles (most likely Landa's 1562 Relacion)
> not Inquisition cases.  The location of the caves is imprecise as well.  And
> to Mark's point, the prospect of a Quiche scribe referring to the Yucatec
> landscape (even if it was infused with symbolic meaning) is highly unlikely.
>  While there is certainly room for parallels between mythological systems,
> the Popul Vuh is too distant (in terms of both time and space) for direct
> correlations to be realistic.
>
>
> http://www.elpais.com/articulo/Revista/Verano/arqueologos/descubren/mitica/entrada/submundo/maya/elpepucul/20080815elprdv_4/Tes
>
> Cordially,
> Ryan
>
> > Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 12:09:45 -0800
> > From: mvanstone at swccd.edu
> > To: Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> > Subject: [Aztlan] underground Maya Temple complex
> >
> > Dear Ryan, y Listeros,
> >
> >    Thanks for your information about Dr. Chuchiak's work -- and your own.
> >    I read about this "Mayan underground temple complex" in one of those
> supermarket tabloids, The World News Weekly I think, and it contained the
> usual mix of wide-eyed credulosity, extravagant claims, and complete lack of
> reference matter.  I googled it and indeed found an AP story, that, while a
> bit --only a bit-- more sober in its presentation, was equally lacking in
> useful information about where, or whether, this place is.  The conjectures
> about possible natural origins for the Rooms of Knives and of Bats and of
> Cold and Heat are slightly interesting, but I find it highly unlikely that
> the Postclassic scribe in the highlands writing down the Popol Vuh would
> call upon the local myths referring to a Yucatecan cave-system...
> >    I also GoogleEarthed "Tzibichen" and "Dzibichen" and it returned only
> a "Do you mean *Dzibalchen*?" query.
> >
> >    I think AP's been hoaxed.
> >    Mark Van Stone
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org on behalf of Ryan Kashanipour
> > Sent: Fri 11/7/2008 4:06 PM
> > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Inquistion records yeild clues to Mayan cave
> network
> >
> >
> > Otra vez,
> > Let me clarify my inquiry.  I am presently working with 18th-century
> Inquisition records that deal with medicine, healing, and witchcraft. I know
> a bit about the local contexts of the insitution.  But, by far, the best
> work on Mayas in the Inquisition has been done by John Chuchiak.  Chuchiak
> has worked on caves and cenotes, but the level of specificity indicated in
> this earlier post is even beyond his work.  I am wondering about which
> Inquisition records, specifically, have yielded such direct information.
>  Further, correlating historical texts to archaeological sites is an
> interesting methodology, particularly since much of the work seems to be
> subterranean.
> > Best Wishes,
> > Ryan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: rykash at hotmail.com
> > > To: troycabo at yahoo.com; aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> > > Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 17:28:20 +0000
> > > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Inquistion records yeild clues to Mayan cave
> network
> > >
> > >
> > > Hola mayistas,
> > >
> > > This is a very curious and interesting post.  Anyone have more
> information on this?  Which Inquisition records?  From when?  Submerged
> altar?  Details would be greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Cordialmente,
> > > Ryan
> > >
> > > R.A. Kashanipour
> > > Ph.D. Candidate
> > > Department of History
> > > The University of Arizona
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 17:13:02 -0800
> > > > From: troycabo at yahoo.com
> > > > To: Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> > > > Subject: [Aztlan] Inquistion records yeild clues to Mayan cave
> network
> > > >
> > > > Tzibichen Cenote, Yucatan      Associated press, Nov. 5, 2008,
>                           Mexican Archaeologist Guillermo de Anda using long
> forgotten testimony from the Spanish Inquisition spent 5 years combing the
> 450 year old records of the Inquisition trials the Spaniards held against
> Indian "heretics" in Mexico. A network of underground chambers, roads and
> temples beneath farmland and jungle on the Yucatan peninsula suggests the
> Maya fashioned them to mimic the journey to the underworld, or Xibalba. de
> Anda introduced "an extremely important ingredient" by using historical
> records to locate and connect a series of sacred caves and link them with
> the concept of the Mayan road to the afterworld. Among de Anda's discoveries
> are a broad, perfectly paved, 100-yard underground road leading west the
> direction to the afterlife, a submerged temple, walled-off stone rooms, a
> collapsed and submerged altar with carvings
> > > >  indicating it was dedicated to the God of death and the passage to
> Xibalba.      Mario F. Malo
> >
> >
> >
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