[Aztlan] Plaster & Echoe

[Paul Troemner]

Sid,
I've tried three times to get my response to come through AZTLAN without being garbled, so I am not cutting and pasting from my word processor, just using my e-mail editor this time.  Hopefully it will come through.

--- On Tue, 9/2/08, Sid Hollander <sid.hollander at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Sid Hollander <sid.hollander at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Plaster & Echoe
> To: "AZATLAN" <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 2:45 PM
> I feel obliged to reply now that some of my off-list
> comments were brought
> on list.

Please accept my heartfelt apologies, but I thought you wanted me to respond to the questions on AZTLAN, particularly regarding the units.

> 
> It appears that of the three points that you brought to the
> list that none
> were really answered. IE.
> 
> #1.  Unit of measure. I asked for one and did not get one. 
> Instead I got
> that in ONE building there seems to be a
> "measurement" that is a common to
> some measurements used it THAT construction.  To me, a unit
> of measure is
> wide spread.  It is not OK to say that a measured room etc.
> of l,w and h
> there is a common multiple of 7.5 inches in each dimension
> therefore the
> Maya had a standard unit of measurement equivalent to 7.5
> of our inches.
> 

Let me repeat a sentence from my earlier post:
This [Tompkins'] book has a lot of archaeological history and dimensions for the Pyramid of the Sun, including maps of the seven-pronged cave or tunnel (entrance, two side "petals," and four end "petals"), showing units in "hunabs" and meters.

The "hunabs" shown on a diagram on page 336 indicate it is slightly longer than a meter, with about 90 hunabs to about 96 meters, and indicates the diagram is "as drawn by Harleston."  Falken Forshaw mentioned Harleston in his last posting.

> #2 when I commented on, "and appeared to have specific
> shape requirements"
> instead of getting those requirements I was presented with
> the argument that
> 'they must have'.  And I agree, the Maya didn't
> just haphazardly toss shaped
> stones about.  They planned and I agree that they planned. 
> But this only
> give support that they planned not that they planned with
> acoustic design
> principals in mind.  It appears that the argument for
> acoustical design is
> proceeding along the lines of proving the existence of
> Acoustic Design  by
> the theory of Intelligent Design.  I don't buy either.
> 

My point was not deliberation in acoustic design, but deliberation in building when using layout tools, even if there are no "to scale" drawings or inscriptions.

> #3. "I do believe there is a strong possibility the
> Quetzal-chirping design
> was intended."  Sid:  What leads you to believing
> that? And in the cases
> where there are other sounds (i.e. non Quetzal sounding) do
> you believe the
> non-case was intended?  You didn't address the
> question.  Instead you
> mentioned, "The inefficiency of use of materials in
> building a stepped
> pyramid such as the Castillo or Pyramid of Kulkulcan in
> Chichen Itza is one
> indicator." (On one hand you argue for intelligent
> acoustical design
> considerations and now "inefficiency of use of
> materials in building" the
> same structure.  I don't get the point.  You mention
> and are critical of the
> non-vertical risers, why when, by your own admission, they
> have nothing to
> do with the proposed acoustical phenomena are you critical
> of the
> particular?  The reasoning you use ie. If the Maya only
> intended (this too
> is not resolved) to make a equinox shadow show they
> didn't need to inlude
> acoustic .....  Too much assumption here and the reasoning
> is flawed because
> it is circular.
> 
> At the end you said,
>                 "I'm not saying other structures
> had acoustic design, but
> this one may.
>                  Note I used the  words, "do
> believe," and not "am sure."
> 

Play the sound clip at http://www.ocasa.org/sounds/qqcaca.mp3 (which was linked on David Lubman's site I had linked from my earlier post).  The first two chirps are from a Quetzal.  The third and fourth chirps are clap responses from the Pyramid of Kulkulcan (Mayan Kulkul = Quetzal, Can = Serpent, which the Aztecs called Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent).  The structure is known to have been dedicated to Kulkulcan because of the artifacts, stone artwork, and so forth at the structure.  It would be very fitting to have a king, chief, or medicine man walk to a certain point in front of the structure, clap a pair of knuckledusters, and get the structure to "speak back" in a Quetzal chirp.  Note the length of all chirps are roughly 1/2 second, and the fade out rate is very similar.  The chance of this extremely close similarity being an anomolous coincidence is far less than the likelihood that it was designed into the building.  For accoustic design, an
 additional tool they would need would be a stop watch, perhaps as simple as a clay water vessel with a small hole in the bottom that one covers with a finger to "stop" and removes the finger from the hole to "start," and walking with it as it drips, counting the water spots on the ground for the number of time intervals.  Figure the speed of sound by walking off say 1000 hunabs from an echo wall, have someone clap while you operate the stopwatch, and wait for the report or echo to come back.  The length of the chirp of a Quetzal would also have to be measured with the stopwatch.  The structure has 10-cycle echo walls built into it, with the top width being approximately 1/4 of the bottom width, which contributes to the fade out effect.

Here's additional proof:  I'd like to see someone take a very loud rattle to that clap spot in front of the Pyramid, and give the rattle one hard short shake.  A snake rattle will come back, if the short shake is of sufficient duration.  My guess is also that the "torch" motif we often saw with the knuckleduster motif (Olmec, not Mayan, but may have been passed down through the two cultures) may have been a rattle.

I am not an accoustic engineer, but a civil engineer.  All I am saying is they possibly had all the layout tools needed, they had the math, they had the intellect, and the chirp is far too similar to be accidental.


>  It is with these words that I am having trouble. I would
> not have trouble
> if you said this on the streets but under the circumstance
> you are a
> professional acoustical engineer posting on a scholarly
> board, give an
> opinion in your area of expertise without corresponding
> justification.
> 
> Since you are limiting the acoustical phenomena to one
> building perhaps it
> would be helpful to agree on a working hypothesis.  So far
> I "hear" you
> saying the following:
> 
>    - Because the echoed sound of well-directed hand
> clap(ping) off the steps
>    of the Castillo very closely approximates the chirped
> sound of a diving
>    Quetzal bird I propose that the Maya had and purposely
> used acoustic design
>    principals in the planning and construction of the
> Castillo stairs in order
>    to produce those echoes.
> 
> If you would modify the above and offer:
> 
>    1.  some of your reason(s) for same and
>    2.  how you are going to advance your hypothesis
>    3.  How professional and others on the list can advance
> the hypothesis
> 
> It would go a long way towards resolving the question in
> this particular
> structure.
> 
> Sid Hollander
> Merida, Yucatan

See my comments above.

Thanks, Sid.  I think we may have rediscovered some lost pagentry of the structure, perhaps this chirping could be done from the four directions since the structure is approximately square, similar to using the four directions as the Concheros do somewhere near Teotihuacan.  Does anyone know of any local indigenous pagentry associated with the Pyramid of Kulkulcan?

Paul Troemner, P.E.