[Aztlan] Southeastern US/Mesoamerican language contacts

[Robert Hall]

Mike,
     While I feel that there is, and try to document, positive evidence of Southeastern US contacts with Mesoamerica and beyond beginning about 1000 BCE, I also temper that with knowledge that some of the commonalities or parallels are late reflexes of mythic themes that are far more ancient.
     Take the example in the Popol Vuh of Hunahpu and Xbalanque's blowgun attack on 7 Macaw's jaw and their subsequent impersonation of curers to remedy his ailing mouth, leading to his death, "open[ing] the way for the great rain that destroys the people for whom Seven macaw was the sun" (Tedlock 1985:360). To the far north this is paralleled in Chippewa myth when the culture hero Wenebojo (one of a set of brothers) shoots the king of the underwater powers with an arrow, then impersonates a curer, but rather than removing the arrow he pushes the arrow farther in and kills the king, leading to a great flood. The story of Wenebojo (aka Manabozho, Manapus, Michabo), his wolf brother, and the flood have parallels as remote as the Gilgamesh stories in Mesopotamia.
     As it relates to the 20 Mesoamerican day signs of the sacred year, I would suggest that the authors of that year would have been able to draw upon mythic themes and ideas pre-existing both in Mesoamerica and North America of the first millennium BCE. Take the example of Manik (deer) vs. Caban (earth). Moon was the patroness of Caban. According to a myth cited by Thompson the sexual organs of Moon were created by the cleft hoof of a deer. Much more widely spread is the association of deer hoof rattles with female puberty rites. According to Edmonson the Nahuatl word for deer entered the Quiche Maya vocabulary with the double meaning of "deer" and "female organs." 
     Getting to your question about the Iroquoisn Flint/Ice, I see a combination of shared background and later interaction. Iroquois Flint was one of a set of twins conceived when their mother slept beside two arrows provided by Turtle, who later became Morning Star. As materials for making rattles, Iroquois turtle shells compare with the tree gourds produced from the tree on which Hun Hunahpu's head was hung in the Popol Vuh. In a sense, then, Iroquois Turtle and Quiche Hun Hunahpu played corresponding roles in the conception of twins. This I put in the category of deep substratum of mythic theme. The correspondence of Tawiskala and Tlahuizcal-pantecutli remains more of a puzzle.
     Bob Hall
 

--- On Thu, 8/27/09, michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com> wrote:


From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Southeastern US/Mesoamerican language contacts
To: "Robert Hall" <robertleonardhall at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 11:22 AM


Hi Robert,

I hope you will complete your thoughts here and explain how these stories are related and where you think they sprang from. Were they first worked out as mythology in the north and carried southward in very early times or did these connections come from the Mesoamerican south?

I would like to hear your thoughts on this online. That would be interesting. It seems to me that northern Iroquoian tales related to Mesoamerica may show these stories moved north to south.

Mike Ruggeri

On Aug 27, 2009, at 10:44 AM, Robert Hall wrote:

> 
> 
>      The difficulty in assessing Southeastern-Mesoamerican contacts is that they are distributed over several thousand years. I see no reason to believe that Muskogean languages and their carriers originated outside of the eastern United States, despite traditions that may be interpreted to the contrary.
>      Selu and Tawiskala present different problems. Selu has an occurrence limited to Cherokee, i.e. Southern Iroquioian. Tawiskala has cognates in northern Iroquoian --- Five Nations Iroquois --- as well (Mooney 1982:453). Furthermore, Tawiskala 'Flint, Ice' is featured in myths where he is in constant conflict with Rabbit. This brings to mind the opposition of Flint and Rabbit in the Mesoamerican sacred 260-day year. These days are 10 days apart in the list of 20 day names and thus opposed in the manner of (sky associated) Rain and (earth associated) Water, or Death and Vulture (a carrion eater seeming immune to death). or Eagle and Snake, as in the Mexica origin story. Half-way through a 52 haab cycle any winal day associated with Rabbit, for instance, becomes associated with Flint instead. Half-way through a 1508 haab solar drift cycle any winal day associated with Rabbit becomes associated with Flint instead. Half-way through a 3276
> haab Tuxtla cycle any winal day associated with Rabbit becomes associated with Flint instead.
>       Bob Hall.
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