[Aztlan] Tezcatlipoca girador

Sun Aug 30 14:56:08 CDT 2009

Dea,
     Well, yes, I can see Tezcatlipoca spinning. If we accept Michael Coe's identification of Tezcatlipoca with the World Tree along with my comparison of the World Tree / Sacred Hearth and fire drill / hearthboard pairings, then Tezcatlipoca would have been a veritable whirling dervish. In his guise as Mixcoatl, Tezcatlipoca drilled the first fire, which could also be a personification of the action itself of fire drilling. It is also a sexual metaphor. In the Pawnee New Fire ceremony the fire drill and hearthboard represented intercourse between Morning Star and Evening Star. During the Pawnee Morning Star sacrifice Evening Star  was given an identity with the earth transferred from a sacred hearth, which provides the addtional equation of hearthboard and earth. 
     I can accept the logic of certain stars in Orion being viewed as a three-stone hearth of a triangular pattern, as in the Maya creation story of the inscriptions. This was part of a world-centering act, followed by the raising of the sky (read erecting of the World Tree). I have also read comparisons of the Three Stones of Creation with the three temples of Group E pattern, as at Uaxactun. These three temples are more in a row than in a triangle, as one might expect if they represented the hearthboard, aka belt in Orion. They are not exactly in a row, however, just as the three belt stars of Orion are not exactly in a straight line. In fact, the southernmost of the three temples is actually skewed in its orientation, as if to more faithfully represent the patterning of the stars in Orion's belt. This skewing is typically not shown in textbook diagramatics of Uaxactun's Group E, but it is illustrated by Ricketson.
     Three of the dated stelae of the Uaxactun Group bear Long Count Dates that correspond within a day or two of first nadir passage of the sun at the latitude of Uaxactun. This should remind us that the Chorti Maya Creation reenactment also appears to have been timed for first nadir passage of the sun at the latitude of the Chortis, February 8, mas o menos. 
     In choosing between interpretations of the identity of Orion, I would suggest that weight be given to those that have more explanatory power, i.e. that draw together more otherwise disparate facts. The same goes for Tezcatlipoca's prosthesis.
     Bob

--- On Sun, 8/30/09, D. M. Urquidi <deamayaspin at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: D. M. Urquidi <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] SE/MESO retransmit
To: "Robert Hall" <robertleonardhall at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: "Aztlan" <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 11:20 AM

B. Tedlock also based her decision about the Heathstones on information similar  to yours. But Shahagun is very clear about where it is located and referred to Chapter IV, Nbr IV as verification.

And Tezcatlipoca did not use a mirror to create, in the Popol Vuh and the Miexican Histories,  he spun on his foot (thereby wearing it down, thus losing it). The mirror only replaced the foot, and could later be used for divination via the stars, even as an enclosed lake could be used for more accurate (larger images) of the stars that had significant omens that season, day, month, etc.

Dea.

D. M. Urquidi
P. O. Box 49485
Austin, Texas 78765
http://www.mayalords.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/

--- On Sun, 8/30/09, Robert Hall <robertleonardhall at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> From: Robert Hall <robertleonardhall at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] SE/MESO retransmit
> To: deamayaspin at yahoo.com
> Cc: "Aztlan" <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 8:41 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  I base my identification of Orion with the
> firesticks constellation on multiple grounds: 
>      (1) As Sahagun illustrated
> Mamalhuaztli, it clearly represents the belt and sword
> of Orion seen as a hearthboard and drill.
>      (2) Aztec warriors
> burned the image of the firesticks constellation onto their
> wrists; the three stars of the belt/hearthboard asterism in
> Orion formed the wrist of the Hand constellation on the
> North American Plains
>      (3) The image of the
> firesticks burned onto their wrists served a purpose in the
> Aztecs' afterlife; so also did certain scars burned onto
> the arms of Sioux men and Shawnee men for that matter,
> suggesting a practice with deep roots on the continent.
> 
>      (4) The hearthboard and drill
> components of a set of firesticks correspond to the sacred
> hearth and xocotl pole in the Aztec Feast of the Dead and to
> the hearth and world tree/spirit trail) in the Maya creation
> story as read from the inscriptions. This hearth was
> identified with Orion and with a turtle. Turtle hearths are
> not peculiar to the Mayas. The Sioux and Pawnee also have
> them. 
>      Bob Hall
> 
> --- On Sun, 8/30/09, D. M. Urquidi
> <deamayaspin at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: D. M. Urquidi <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] SE/MESO retransmit
> To: "Robert Hall"
> <robertleonardhall at sbcglobal.net>
> Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 7:40 AM
> 
> 
> Bob:
> 
> THe fire-sticks is not and never was Orion. The mirror of
> Tezcatlipoctli's foot is Sirius, the Dog Star.
> Sahagun gives an extremely good description of the Fire
> Sticks, near Gemini (Mastelejos = M (place of) astelejos =
> Gemini) near el signo del Toro NOT Taurus, which was a known
> constellation at that time.)
> D. M. Urquidi
> P. O. Box 49485
> Austin, Texas 78765
> http://www.mayalords.org
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
> 
> 
> --- On Sat, 8/29/09, Robert Hall <robertleonardhall at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Robert Hall <robertleonardhall at sbcglobal.net>
> > Subject: [Aztlan] SE/MESO retransmit
> > To: "michael ruggeri" <michaelruggeri at mac.com>,
> "Nick Hopkins" <nickhopkins at live.com>
> > Cc: "Aztlan" <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> > Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 4:24 PM
> > 
> > 
> > Nick and Mike,
> >      I agree that precautions are
> necessary. Quite a
> > few years back I was working in a fairly isolated
> former
> > Indian mission town in Venezuela. One of the
>  residents knew
> > that I was making a special note of distinctive local
> usages
> > of words and expressions. He began bringing me some
> real
> > puzzlers, words that seemed to be in an archaic
> Spanish. The
> > excitement waned when I discovered that he was picking
> words
> > from a Latin Bible that he recognized as being cognate
> with
> > Spanish words he knew.
> >      One of the genuine, I feel,
> substrates of mythic
> > themes in the New World relate to the constellation
> Orion,
> > which widely turns up in connection with stories
> about
> > individuals who have lost a body part. For Greek Orion
> it
> > was an eye. For Egyptian Osiris it was his penis.
> For the
> > Navajo it was a scalp. For the Crow and Hidatsa
> it was a
> > hand. In South America it was a leg. Though I know of
> no
> > explicit connection with Orion, I would add to this
> list
> > Tezcatlipoca.
>  Tezcatliopoca lost his foot to the crocodilian
> > Cipactli, who in turn lost his lower jaw, just as one
> of a
> > set of South American twins lost his leg to a
> crocodilian,
> > who in turn lost his lower jaw. The leg became Orion,
> the
> > jaw the Hyades. In the case of Tezcatlipoca there is
> an
> > implicit connection to Orion, however. In his guise
> as
> > Mixcoatl Tezcatlipoca drilled the first
> fire. Orion is the
> > firesticks constellation, of course. Bob Hall
> > 
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