[Aztlan] Aztlan Digest, Vol 45, Issue 27
Saude Pavón
pavonsaude at hotmail.com
Mon Aug 31 08:32:24 CDT 2009
I wish ask if somebody know some epigraphic evidence about the word for 'pain' between the ancients mayas?
Saude
> From: aztlan-request en lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Aztlan Digest, Vol 45, Issue 27
> To: aztlan en lists.famsi.org
> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 12:00:02 -0500
>
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Southeastern US/Mesoamerican language contacts (Robert Hall)
> 2. southeast /mesoamerican contacts (james adams)
> 3. SE/MESO retransmit (Robert Hall)
> 4. Re: Southeastern US/Mesoamerican language contacts
> (Mark Van Stone)
> 5. cherokee & contacts (Lennert van Oorschot)
> 6. Re: CAution: southeast /mesoamerican contacts
> (Karrie Porter Brace)
> 7. Re: SE/MESO retransmit (Robert Hall)
> 8. Re: "Robert Re: SE/MESO retransmit (Robert Hall)
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:24:30 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Robert Hall <robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Southeastern US/Mesoamerican language contacts
> To: Nick Hopkins <nickhopkins en live.com>, michael ruggeri
> <michaelruggeri en mac.com>
> Cc: Aztlan <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <434118.62316.qm en web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick and Mike,
> ???? I agree that precautions are necessary. Quite a few years back I was working in a fairly isolated former Indian mission town in Venezuela. One of the residents knew that I was making a special note of distinctive local usages of words and expressions. He began bringing me some real puzzlers, words that seemed to be in an archaic Spanish. The excitement waned when I discovered that he was picking words from a Latin Bible that he recognized as being cognate with Spanish words he knew.
> ???? One of the genuine, I feel, substrates of mythic themes in the New World relate to the constellation Orion, which widely turns up in connection with stories about individuals who have lost a body part. For Greek Orion it was an eye. For?Egyptian Osiris it was his penis. For the Navajo it was a scalp.?For the Crow and Hidatsa it was a hand. In South America it was a leg. Though I know of no explicit connection with Orion, I would add to this list Tezcatlipoca. Tezcatliopoca lost his foot to the crocodilian Cipactli, who in turn lost his lower jaw, just as one of a set of South American twins lost his leg to a crocodilian, who in turn lost his lower jaw. The leg became Orion, the jaw the Hyades. Bob Hall
>
> --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Nick Hopkins <nickhopkins en live.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Nick Hopkins <nickhopkins en live.com>
> Subject: RE: [Aztlan] Southeastern US/Mesoamerican language contacts
> To: michaelruggeri en mac.com, "Robert Hall" <robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: "Aztlan" <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 2:51 PM
>
>
>
>
> #yiv1751566474 #yiv987806380 #yiv1392094159 #yiv482368003 #yiv806434275 .hmmessage P
> {
> margin:0px;padding:0px;}
> #yiv1751566474 #yiv987806380 #yiv1392094159 #yiv482368003 #yiv806434275 {
> font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
>
> Good stories do get around. ?In the 1960s I recorded a version of Oedipus told by a monolingual speaker of Chuj?(a Mayan language in NW Guatemala), and it matched the original right down to the riddle that had to be solved to win the bride (What walks on four legs in the morning...). ?And incorporated into the Coyote-Rabbit trickster tales were the episodes that we know of as the Br'er Rabbit stories, originally African tales (like Tar Baby). ?(BTW I don't think these go back to an ancient common origin.) ? ? ? ??
>
>
> Nick Hopkins
>
> > From: michaelruggeri en mac.com
> > To: robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net
> > Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:36:19 -0500
> > CC: aztlan en lists.famsi.org
> > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Southeastern US/Mesoamerican language contacts
> >
> > Robert,
> >
> > I agree that much of this mythology has its roots far back into the
> > hunting/gathering past in the Americas. The stories are very ancient
> > and traveled through the Americas at a very early time. I believe that
> > some of these mythologies were brought by hunting/gathering shaman all
> > the way from Asia and the myths were then fleshed out by later peoples
> > already familiar with the main concepts behind the ancient myths. That
> > would explain a lot of the strange similarities between tales told
> > north of the Rio Grande and those in Mesoamerica.
> >
> > Mike Ruggeri
>
>
>
>
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> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 11:59:02 -0700 (PDT)
> From: james adams <teshunka en yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Aztlan] southeast /mesoamerican contacts
> To: aztlan en lists.famsi.org
> Message-ID: <660787.56741.qm en web53005.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hello listeros,
>
> A very interesting discussion, but I think some of the argument is a bit backward. Reference to Brer Rabbit, for instance. African scholars find very few parallels, but the tales clearly parallel Indian stories, as Mooney himself noted. For instance, the mosquito story, where Brer Rabbit has to show his worthiness as a suitor by enduring swarms of mosquitos. This is a Hopi legend, isn't it?
>
> Likewise, Iroquois parallels to mesoamerican would seem an obvious companion to spread of corn cultivation. Falling sky woman and hero twins ring any bells?
>
> South to north transmission in comparatively recent past is less mystical than circum-polar culture, but more plausible.
>
> Best,
>
> Jim Adams
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:24:33 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Robert Hall <robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: [Aztlan] SE/MESO retransmit
> To: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri en mac.com>, Nick Hopkins
> <nickhopkins en live.com>
> Cc: Aztlan <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <595690.98529.qm en web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>
> Nick and Mike,
> ???? I agree that precautions are necessary. Quite a few years back I was working in a fairly isolated former Indian mission town in Venezuela. One of the residents knew that I was making a special note of distinctive local usages of words and expressions. He began bringing me some real puzzlers, words that seemed to be in an archaic Spanish. The excitement waned when I discovered that he was picking words from a Latin Bible that he recognized as being cognate with Spanish words he knew.
> ???? One of the genuine, I feel, substrates of mythic themes in the New World relate to the constellation Orion, which widely turns up in connection with stories about individuals who have lost a body part. For Greek Orion it was an eye. For?Egyptian Osiris it was his penis. For the Navajo it was a scalp.?For the Crow and Hidatsa it was a hand. In South America it was a leg. Though I know of no explicit connection with Orion, I would add to this list Tezcatlipoca. Tezcatliopoca lost his foot to the crocodilian Cipactli, who in turn lost his lower jaw, just as one of a set of South American twins lost his leg to a crocodilian, who in turn lost his lower jaw. The leg became Orion, the jaw the Hyades. In the case of Tezcatlipoca there is an implicit connection to Orion, however. In his guise as Mixcoatl Tezcatlipoca drilled the first fire.?Orion is the firesticks constellation, of course. Bob Hall
>
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 23:53:29 -0700
> From: Mark Van Stone <mvanstone en swccd.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Southeastern US/Mesoamerican language contacts
> To: Paul Troemner <troemner en yahoo.com>,
> "robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net" <robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net>,
> Nick Hopkins <nickhopkins en live.com>
> Cc: Aztlan <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID:
> <86E51FC1D3906A418C205553DD45ADD201CE31CDBE84 en EXCHANGE2.sccd.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> Listeros,
> Thanks to Nick for his very reasoned objection to the pre-Sequoyah theory of the origin of the Cherokee syllabary.
> Please allow me to proffer my observations from a world-paleography point of view.
> Paul Troemner says "Serifs are not unique to English ?" This is true; almost every writing system eventually hits upon the design power of a kind of swelling-the-ends-of strokes to provide a kind of visual stop and unity of form, from wedgy Cuneiform (which inspired Hellenistic Greek after Alexander's conquest of Persia, which in turn inspired Roman capitals' more sober serifs) to the "bone stroke" of Chinese Li Shu (dated to the Ch'in dynasty, ca. 215 BCE), to "nail-headed" Gupta scripts in India which evolved into the *sirorekha* or "head line" familiar to us in modern Tibetan and Devanagari. However, the Cherokee serifs in question are peculiar to 19th century fonts, and more particularly to 19th century hand-printed writing as taught in American primary schools. The Cherokee serifs resemble these so closely as to have been very unlikely to have evolved in isolation. Indeed, Sequoyah is said (known?) to have possessed a German and an English book, though unable to !
> read them, and easily could have found inspiration for his syllaboforms therein. A caution though: He might have adopted some ancient syllabic forms and "modernized" them according to English and German letterforms that they accidentally resembled, just as we see Chinese and Thai packaging adorned with their native characters imitating Euro-American typefaces like Helvetica, Palatino, or Victorian/Spencerian/Copperplate (this last, especially if printed in pink, usually denotes romantic or pornographic content).
> Troemner then concludes, "?and as such are not proof that Sequoyah got any of the syllabary characters from copying English letters." That the Coptic and Russian Alphabets have much in common with the Greek alphabet is generally seen as proof that the last inspired the former two. (Less obviously, so do early Greek letters resemble Phoenician.) Of course, he would object that their similar letters carry similar values. But there are several examples of sign-lists being adopted while losing the connections to their sounds.
> The fact that some 30% of Mycenean Linear B signs resemble Cretan Linear A is conventionally regarded as proof of a connection, even if the signs in question don't have the same values. Likewise with Sabaean vs. Ethiopic. Likewise with Maya and Isthmian/Epi-Olmec glyphs. Likewise with the Japanese syllabaries, which clearly ape Chinese characters (and often, but not always, have related values). The relationship between Egyptian and early Canaanite consonantal signs is vaguer, prompting Diringer to coin the term "idea-diffusion," but I think the link is clear. (I happen to believe the idea of Writing also diffused in a similar way from Sumer to Egypt, though the jury is still out on that hot-button issue.) In fact, precisely the kind of highly-unlikely-to-have-been-accidental overlap we see between the sign-lists of Cherokee and early-19th-century handwritten capital letters, is the kind of evidence we epigraphers rely on for many of our decipherments.
> Also, let's drop the red-herring word "denigrating" in this context, please. Paul's point is well-taken, but I think his indignant answer misses Nick's point.
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Van Stone
> ________________ ________________________
> From: aztlan-bounces en lists.famsi.org [aztlan-bounces en lists.famsi.org] On Behalf Of Paul Troemner [troemner en yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 12:28 PM
> To: robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net; Nick Hopkins
> Cc: Aztlan
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Southeastern US/Mesoamerican language contacts
>
> Nick,
>
> Whether Sequoyah invented a new system or standardized an existing system of the syllabary, then prepared it for typesetting and taught it to the Cherokee, it will remain as one of the greatest intellectual achievements in recent history. When viewing the historical and political conditions of the time, and the accounts of maiming and "witchcraft" accusations for those who were literate prior to the public reception of the syllabary, it is amazing he was able to get the system accepted.
>
> "This is the kind of denigration of Indian achievements that was popular in the 19th century."
>
> Is it more denigrating to have gotten the writing system from other Indians than it is to have gotten it by copying the way the Anglos did things?
>
> The claim for the southwest origins comes from a full-blood eastern Cherokee who had access to old handwritten manuscripts in syllabary. The book is "Tell Them They Lie, The Sequoyah Myth" by Traveller Bird, published by Westernlore Publishers, Los Angeles, 1971.
>
> Serifs are not unique to English and as such are not proof that Sequoyah got any of the syllabary characters from copying English letters. Similarities in appearance also are not proof.
>
> Paul
>
> --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Nick Hopkins <nickhopkins en live.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Nick Hopkins <nickhopkins en live.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Aztlan] Southeastern US/Mesoamerican language contacts
> > To: troemner en yahoo.com, robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net
> > Cc: "Aztlan" <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>
> > Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 12:55 PM
> >
> > The sources that argue for a precolumbian Southwestern origin for the Cherokee syllabary fail to account for the obvious fact that many of Sequoya's characters are English letters, used of course with distinct values, but identical to printed letters right down to the serifs...
> How in the world could those have been known to precontact Southwesterners? And don't try to tell me they are an independent invention, or that they somehow derive from Mexican scripts. I don't know the sources cited, but it strikes me that this is the kind of denigration of Indian achievements that was popular in the 19th century. IMHO, Sequoya's invention of a unique writing system is one of the greatest intellectual achievements in recent history.
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>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 01:32:51 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Lennert van Oorschot <lenschot en yahoo.fr>
> Subject: [Aztlan] cherokee & contacts
> To: aztlan en lists.famsi.org
> Message-ID: <134143.78005.qm en web26708.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Hi!
>
> Since "contacts between the culture areas" is my subject of interest... :) But first a note on the Cherokee syllabary. The book mentioned, with in it the oiginal "characters" (pp. 288-290) is called "Beginning Cherokee" by Ruth Bradley Holmes & Betty Sharp Smith, Oklahoma Press, 1976
>
> I recently bought in a Boston bookstore. After "google-ing" on "original Cherokee syllabary", I found this online: http://intertribal.net/NAT/Cherokee/WebPgCC1/Original.htm
>
> As you can see, the original ones are indeed very different from the ones in use today. For example, the Cherokee "letter" D (the "a-sound"), which clearly comes from our Latin letter D, looked more like fs but also less like our letters f & s than Cherokee D lookes like Latin D.
>
> I also should note however that the book gives full credit to Sequoyah for inventing the script.
>
> all the best,
>
> Lennert van Oorschot
> MA Languages & Cultures of Indigenous America
> Amsterdam, Netherlands?
>
>
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 23:23:42 -0700
> From: Karrie Porter Brace <chacnikteilna en hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] CAution: southeast /mesoamerican contacts
> To: Aztlan Aztlan <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY104-W6AA370FABAB5D9774DEE3B1F30 en phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
>
> Comparison of stories in multiple cultures can yield some interesting information, but let's be cautious. If we follow the route of Mircea Eliade or Claude Levi Strauss we tend to "cherry pick" those characters, events or traits that seem to be similar and support our thesis/argument while glossing over the details or differences that really make these things unique in their own culture histories. We perceive these archetypal themes because they make sense to us, they are relevant in our culture. These may not have been so relevant when comparing these cultures in their own contexts in the past.
>
> There are some strong suggestive similarities among those things being duscussed. The data really require close examination to be determine what we're comparing are apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Time and contact change things too. It is difficult to determine the original meanings of components in stories and mythic themes from archaeological contexts or oral histories passed down through generations.
>
> Karrie Porter Brace, La Pelirroja Peligrosa
> While the rest of the species is descended from apes, redheads are descended from cats. --Mark Twain
> Redheads are children of the moon, thwarted by the sun and addicted to sex and sugar. --Tom Robbins
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 11:59:02 -0700
> > From: teshunka en yahoo.com
> > To: aztlan en lists.famsi.org
> > Subject: [Aztlan] southeast /mesoamerican contacts
> >
> > Hello listeros,
> >
> > A very interesting discussion, but I think some of the argument is a bit backward. Reference to Brer Rabbit, for instance. African scholars find very few parallels, but the tales clearly parallel Indian stories, as Mooney himself noted. For instance, the mosquito story, where Brer Rabbit has to show his worthiness as a suitor by enduring swarms of mosquitos. This is a Hopi legend, isn't it?
> >
> > Likewise, Iroquois parallels to mesoamerican would seem an obvious companion to spread of corn cultivation. Falling sky woman and hero twins ring any bells?
> >
> > South to north transmission in comparatively recent past is less mystical than circum-polar culture, but more plausible.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Jim Adams
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Aztlan mailing list
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
> > Click here to post a message Aztlan en lists.famsi.org
> > Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php
> >
> >
>
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> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 06:41:20 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Robert Hall <robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] SE/MESO retransmit
> To: deamayaspin en yahoo.com
> Cc: Aztlan <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <678365.22440.qm en web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>
>
>
> ?I base my identification of Orion with the firesticks constellation on multiple grounds:
> ???? (1) As Sahagun illustrated Mamalhuaztli, it clearly?represents the belt and sword of Orion seen as?a hearthboard and drill.
> ?????(2) Aztec warriors burned the image of the firesticks constellation onto their wrists; the three stars of the belt/hearthboard asterism in Orion formed the wrist of the Hand constellation on the North American Plains
> ???? (3) The image of the firesticks burned onto their wrists served a purpose in the Aztecs' afterlife; so also did certain scars burned onto the?arms of Sioux men and Shawnee men for that matter, suggesting a practice with deep roots on the continent.
> ???? (4) The hearthboard and drill components of a set of firesticks correspond to the sacred hearth and xocotl pole in the Aztec Feast of the Dead and to the hearth and world tree/spirit trail) in the Maya creation story as read from the inscriptions. This hearth was identified with Orion and with a turtle. Turtle hearths are not peculiar to the Mayas. The Sioux and Pawnee also have them.
> ???? Bob Hall
>
> --- On Sun, 8/30/09, D. M. Urquidi <deamayaspin en yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: D. M. Urquidi <deamayaspin en yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] SE/MESO retransmit
> To: "Robert Hall" <robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net>
> Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 7:40 AM
>
>
> Bob:
>
> THe fire-sticks is not and never was Orion. The mirror of Tezcatlipoctli's foot is Sirius, the Dog Star.
> Sahagun gives an extremely good description of the Fire Sticks, near Gemini (Mastelejos = M (place of) astelejos = Gemini) near el signo del Toro NOT Taurus, which was a known constellation at that time.)
> D. M. Urquidi
> P. O. Box 49485
> Austin, Texas 78765
> http://www.mayalords.org
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
>
>
> --- On Sat, 8/29/09, Robert Hall <robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > From: Robert Hall <robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net>
> > Subject: [Aztlan] SE/MESO retransmit
> > To: "michael ruggeri" <michaelruggeri en mac.com>, "Nick Hopkins" <nickhopkins en live.com>
> > Cc: "Aztlan" <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>
> > Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 4:24 PM
> >
> >
> > Nick and Mike,
> > ???? I agree that precautions are necessary. Quite a
> > few years back I was working in a fairly isolated former
> > Indian mission town in Venezuela. One of the residents knew
> > that I was making a special note of distinctive local usages
> > of words and expressions. He began bringing me some real
> > puzzlers, words that seemed to be in an archaic Spanish. The
> > excitement waned when I discovered that he was picking words
> > from a Latin Bible that he recognized as being cognate with
> > Spanish words he knew.
> > ???? One of the genuine, I feel, substrates of mythic
> > themes in the New World relate to the constellation Orion,
> > which widely turns up in connection with stories about
> > individuals who have lost a body part. For Greek Orion it
> > was an eye. For?Egyptian Osiris it was his penis. For the
> > Navajo it was a scalp.?For the Crow and Hidatsa it was a
> > hand. In South America it was a leg. Though I know of no
> > explicit connection with Orion, I would add to this list
> > Tezcatlipoca. Tezcatliopoca lost his foot to the crocodilian
> > Cipactli, who in turn lost his lower jaw, just as one of a
> > set of South American twins lost his leg to a crocodilian,
> > who in turn lost his lower jaw. The leg became Orion, the
> > jaw the Hyades. In the case of Tezcatlipoca there is an
> > implicit connection to Orion, however. In his guise as
> > Mixcoatl Tezcatlipoca drilled the first fire.?Orion is the
> > firesticks constellation, of course. Bob Hall
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Aztlan mailing list
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
> > Click here to post a message Aztlan en lists.famsi.org
> > Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 07:23:18 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Robert Hall <robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] "Robert Re: SE/MESO retransmit
> To: d m urquidi <dreemwea en gmail.com>
> Cc: Aztlan <aztlan en lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <943783.54936.qm en web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>
> ???? I missed the arm of Hunahpu only in the posting you responded to. In an earlier posting to Aztlan I compared Hunahpu's lost arm and 7 Macaw's lost teeth to the missing foot of Tezcatlipoca and the missing mandible of Cipactli and to the twin's lost leg and cayman's lost mandible in the South American tale. This poses the additional problem of 7 Macaw being a bird and Cipactli being a crocodilian. This seeming contradiction I see as an evolution in divergent directions from the presence early?in Preclassic times of an avian-saurian deity.
> ???? The avian-saurian creature took the form of a crocodilian with bird head around 1000-800 BCE in the eastern US and in first millennium CE at Cocle in Panama. Some of the ceramic flutes from Veracruz also feature the same or similar composite creatures, one of them a feathered?iguana.
> ???? As for Osiris, when his body was reassembled the one part that could not be found was
> his penis, which had been eaten by?an Oxyrhynchus fish. Osiris was one of a set of twins, by the way.
> ???? As for the mirror on Tezcatlipoca's foot being Sirius, I would call attention to the fact that Mirror that Smokes, Mirror that Steams, is the ritual term for the earth, as explained in Andrews and Hassig's commentary on Alarcon's Treatise on Heathen Superstitions. It was the earth monster, after all, that consumed Tezcatlipoca's foot. Tezcatlipoca was not himself the Smoking Mirror in the metaphoric sense but rather in the metonymic sense of He-of-the-Smoking-Mirror. The association of earth and mirror is found in the North American Plains as well. There was a practice of divination involving the blood of a badger as a mirror viewed by moonlight. If fresh, the blood would have steamed. The badger was an earth metaphor.
> ???? Bob Hall
> ?
>
> --- On Sun, 8/30/09, d m urquidi <dreemwea en gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: d m urquidi <dreemwea en gmail.com>
> Subject: "Robert Re: [Aztlan] SE/MESO retransmit
> To: robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net
> Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 6:24 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob:
>
>
> I took offense at the fact that you missed the arm of Hunahpu and the emasculation of Cronos. Osiris symbol is not a penis, but the spinal cord. Hence, it is one of the pillars of the world, The Milky Way. He also describes the Rose Tree (the other pillar) as the Great Star, not Venus in spite of the friars.
>
>
> Sahagun explained where the Fire Sticks Chapter III are located (contrary to B. Tedlock's version) and confirms it Chapter IV, nbr IV. And in the title of Chapter III, the MasteleJos that becomes
> M = place of; astillejos - Gemini AND MasteleRos.
>
>
> Phillips Jr., Henry (1883) History of the Mexicans as Told by Their Paintings Translated and edited by Henry Phillips Jr. Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society XXI:616-651, 1883. (edited? for FAMSI by Alec Christensen)
>
>
> It is also in my new book Turquoise Teeth: Jewel Eyes. Tried to send you a few chapters but even gl-mail will not carry both.
>
> What is so amazing to me, is that you all see the pieces, (if you all had not done that I would never have found what I see) but you all have no way to connect them. You see to be tied to the statues and stories of the gods instead of what they mean. Don't mean to rant, but GEE WHIZ!!!!!
> D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765 http://www.mayalords.org http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/ --- On Sat, 8/29/09, Robert Hall <robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net> wrote: > From: Robert Hall <robertleonardhall en sbcglobal.net> > Subject: [Aztlan] SE/MESO retransmit > To: "michael ruggeri" <michaelruggeri en mac.com>, "Nick Hopkins" <nickhopkins en live.com> > Cc: "Aztlan" <aztlan en lists.famsi.org> > Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 4:24 PM > > > Nick and Mike, > ???? I agree that precautions are necessary. Quite a > few years back I was working in a fairly isolated former > Indian mission town in Venezuela. One of the residents knew > that I was making a special note of distinctive local usages > of words and expressions. He began bringing me some real > puzzlers, words that seemed to be in an archaic Spanish. The > excitement waned when I discovered that he was picking words > from a Latin Bible that he recognized as being
> cognate with > Spanish words he knew. > ???? One of the genuine, I feel, substrates of mythic > themes in the New World relate to the constellation Orion, > which widely turns up in connection with stories about > individuals who have lost a body part. For Greek Orion it > was an eye. For?Egyptian Osiris it was his penis. For the > Navajo it was a scalp.?For the Crow and Hidatsa it was a > hand. In South America it was a leg. Though I know of no > explicit connection with Orion, I would add to this list > Tezcatlipoca. Tezcatliopoca lost his foot to the crocodilian > Cipactli, who in turn lost his lower jaw, just as one of a > set of South American twins lost his leg to a crocodilian, > who in turn lost his lower jaw. The leg became Orion, the > jaw the Hyades. In the case of Tezcatlipoca there is an > implicit connection to Orion, however. In his guise as > Mixcoatl Tezcatlipoca drilled the first fire.?Orion is the > firesticks constellation, of
> course. Bob Hall > > _______________________________________________ > Aztlan mailing list > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan > Click here to post a message Aztlan en lists.famsi.org > Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php > > >
>
> --
> D. M. Urquidi
> dmu Ink
> P. O. Box 49485
> Austin, Texas 78765
> http://www.mayalords. org
>
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
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>
> End of Aztlan Digest, Vol 45, Issue 27
> **************************************
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