[Aztlan] Aztlan Digest, Vol 39, Issue 4

Thu Feb 5 14:15:20 CST 2009

Dear Listeros - I have two items I would like to respond to in brief: 1) The long-accepted idea that the Ancient Americans did not utilize the wheel seems incredible in view of the now decades-known fact of the use of wheels on small animal figurines, which may have been toys or funerary offerings. They have been found in Tres Zapotes, Veracruz, Mex., in Cihuatan, San Salvador, and in Yaxchilan, Chiapas, Mex. In fact, it has been determined that the Mesoamericans knew five different ways to attach an axle, indicating skilled technical understanding of the concept. (See "Wheeled Toys in Mexico" by Gordon F. Ekholm in American Antiquity, 11. 1946. Also, "Salvadoran Varieties of Wheeled Figurines" by Stanley H. Boggs in Contributions to Mesoamerican Anthropology, Pub. No. 1, Miami: Institute of Maya Studies of the Museum of Science, 1973.) It is unlikely that the basic mechanical principle of the wheel was understood, but never used in larger applications. Rather, lack of the wheel seems to be one of those ideas that was purported to be true long ago and no one ever challenges. I think it is more likely that the wheel had religious significance, e.g. representing the Sun God, as in Egypt, and was not allowed to be used other than for building sacred edifices, and that same type of religious proscription applied to portraying the use of the wheel. They did build the sacbeob that could have been used for wheeled transport, and there are thousands of miles of similar highways in South America. Also, if their wheels were made of wood, they would have disintegrated along with other wooden implements over the centuries. I am thinking that with the end of pyramid building and the need to move huge building stones, the prohibitions remained in place even if just in the minds of the people, and the wheel was no longer used in the post-classic and later. There were also those gigantic stone wheels found in South America with square axle holes found in them. I know that many cultures today still use a simple forehead tumpline (mecapal) even though they have wheels being used all around, even on cars, etc., so that is no proof that they did not have the wheel, or that they needed draft animals to need or have the wheel.

2) The other thing I was wondering about is regarding the discussion of the jawbones. What does the glyph for the jawbone, as found on Izapa Stela No. 5, stand for? Is this somehow a clue as to the significance/importance of the jawbone?Thanks for your consideration,
Mark Cheney

 EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOODJoin meFrom: aztlan-request at lists.famsi.orgSubject: Aztlan Digest, Vol 39, Issue 4To: aztlan at lists.famsi.orgDate: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:00:02 -0600Send Aztlan mailing list submissions to	aztlan at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit	http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlanor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to	aztlan-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at	aztlan-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please change the Subject line of your email to matchthe exact topic being discussed, and delete all but the most importanttext from previous messages.                   --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: szoraster at szoraster.comSubject: [Aztlan] Maya siege towers?Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 15:49:57 -0600To: Aztlan at lists.famsi.org Reading Marisol Cortes Rincon's 2007 dissertation, "A Comparative Study of Fortification Developments Throughout The Maya Region ..." [1], I learned that in the Temple of the Jaguars at Chichen Itza there is a mural showing a Maya siege tower. Actually, two Maya siege towers. (page 217 and nearby text).  I associate siege towers with Assyrians, Romans and Crusaders. Expensive and requiring sophisticated engineering on the part of the attacking forces. Is there other evidence for Maya siege towers? If they were moveable, how is that practical without wheels? If not moveable, how did they get built inside the range of the defender's projectile weapons? Steven Zoraster [1] tinyurl.com/bkyh5e                              --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: michaelruggeri at mac.comSubject: [Aztlan] The Archaeology Channel's latest video on ChoquequiraoDate: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 00:34:39 -0600To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org Listeros, The Archaeology Channel's latest video is on the Inca fortress of  Choquequirao. Here is the URL;http://www.archaeologychannel.org Mike Ruggeri  Mike Ruggeri's The Ancient Americas Breaking Newshttp://web.mac.com/michaelruggeri            >>  -- http://gispalenque.blogspot.com/http://volunteermayameetings.blogspot.com/ --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: mayavase at verizon.netSubject: [Aztlan] A Speculation on a Sacrifice at TeotihuacánDate: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:20:05 -0500To: aztlan at lists.famsi.orgOn Sacrifice at Teotihuacán Some years ago when bodies were discovered in an ancient burial, atTeotihuacán with lower jaws as necklaces, I was fascinated with the ideathat when they (the ones doing the killing, whoever they were) had run outof real lower jaws, they created reproductions for those victims who did nothave them. The concept teased me, why lower jaws, what was the significanceof this particular body part? And now I enter the area of pure conjecture.  I have been accused for manyyears of applying the philosophies of the Popol Vuh, a Quiche tale, to themuch broader area of the Maya in general  and as well to many other areas ofMesoamerica. Where did this late classic or post-classic story come from?Did it spring up fully formed as Athena springing from the body of Zeus, orwere these legends built into the Mesoamerican system and if so for howlong? Over the years, many clues emerged that the legends of the Popol Vuh wentfar back in time and also that  many versions may have existed as well asmany tales that we have images of,  but no inscriptions to back them up orexplain them.  I admit to being a joiner; that is, seeing connections wherenone may readily be apparent.  So I throw out to this erudite group thepossibility that there is reason for not only this particular mass sacrificebut the jaw bones themselves. In preparing for the 2009 Maya Meeting in Austin; soon to be upon us, Istudied the scene on a well know vase K555. This vase has been publishedmany times and seems to make reference to a number of stories from the PopolVuh. (The members of the vase workshop will be asked to toy with this one.)One of the prominent scenes on this vase is some little creatures havingtheir lower jaws torn from their faces by none other than Chak. Why werethese little fellows being treated so harshly? Checking with AlanChristenson’s translation of the Popol Vuh, we find this passage;  The Lords of the Otherworld are speaking: Then therefore they summoned the guardians flowers:“What is the reason you gave our flowers to be stolen?These our flowers these you see, … They said therefore.Then also were split open their mouths. Their punishment (what) they guarded was stolen. {lines starting at 3970} Popol Vuh Volume II, Allen Christenson Back to Teotihuacán, my speculation is that these sacrificed soldiers withthe lower jaws hanging around their necks had somehow been negligent intheir duties or were part of a coup that didn’t pan out and had thesesymbols of betrayal put around their necks, before they were dispatched.Yes, I know it is a far cry from the Highland Maya to the plains ofTeotihuacán, but I wonder if we look very hard in the direction of the Olmecif we can find some evidence there as well.  For example, the figures K3015and K6145 in Portfolio; just two of a group of chinless beings. Justin Kerr                --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: mhopkins at fas.harvard.eduSubject: Re: [Aztlan] A Speculation on a Sacrifice at TeotihuacánCC: aztlan at lists.famsi.orgDate: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:11:00 -0500To: mayavase at verizon.netActually, many of the Feathered Serpent Pyramid burials were wearing necklaces of maxillae. On Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Justin Kerr wrote: > On Sacrifice at Teotihuacán>> Some years ago when bodies were discovered in an ancient burial, at> Teotihuacán with lower jaws as necklaces, I was fascinated with the idea> that when they (the ones doing the killing, whoever they were) had run out> of real lower jaws, they created reproductions for those victims who did not> have them. The concept teased me, why lower jaws, what was the significance> of this particular body part?>> And now I enter the area of pure conjecture.  I have been accused for many> years of applying the philosophies of the Popol Vuh, a Quiche tale, to the> much broader area of the Maya in general  and as well to many other areas of> Mesoamerica. Where did this late classic or post-classic story come from?> Did it spring up fully formed as Athena springing from the body of Zeus, or> were these legends built into the Mesoamerican system and if so for how> long?>> Over the years, many clues emerged that the legends of the Popol Vuh went> far back in time and also that  many versions may have existed as well as> many tales that we have images of,  but no inscriptions to back them up or> explain them.  I admit to being a joiner; that is, seeing connections where> none may readily be apparent.  So I throw out to this erudite group the> possibility that there is reason for not only this particular mass sacrifice> but the jaw bones themselves.>> In preparing for the 2009 Maya Meeting in Austin; soon to be upon us, I> studied the scene on a well know vase K555. This vase has been published> many times and seems to make reference to a number of stories from the Popol> Vuh. (The members of the vase workshop will be asked to toy with this one.)> One of the prominent scenes on this vase is some little creatures having> their lower jaws torn from their faces by none other than Chak. Why were> these little fellows being treated so harshly? Checking with Alan> Christenson?s translation of the Popol Vuh, we find this passage;>> The Lords of the Otherworld are speaking:>> Then therefore they summoned the guardians flowers:> ?What is the reason you gave our flowers to be stolen?> These our flowers these you see, ?>> They said therefore.> Then also were split open their mouths.>> Their punishment> (what) they guarded was stolen.>> {lines starting at 3970} Popol Vuh Volume II, Allen Christenson>> Back to Teotihuacán, my speculation is that these sacrificed soldiers with> the lower jaws hanging around their necks had somehow been negligent in> their duties or were part of a coup that didn?t pan out and had these> symbols of betrayal put around their necks, before they were dispatched.> Yes, I know it is a far cry from the Highland Maya to the plains of> Teotihuacán, but I wonder if we look very hard in the direction of the Olmec> if we can find some evidence there as well.  For example, the figures K3015> and K6145 in Portfolio; just two of a group of chinless beings.>> Justin Kerr>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________> Aztlan mailing list> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php>> 