[Aztlan] Aztlan Digest, Vol 39, Issue 4
D. M. Urquidi
deamayaspin at yahoo.com
Thu Feb 5 16:26:26 CST 2009
Mark C.
THe upper jaw bone in Stela 5 of Izapa is probably referring to the "Maw of the Sky," just as the "Earth Maw" is the maw of the earth. Entrance to caves, buildings etc.
I can see no other jawbone locale on Stela 5 which is the main monument of Izapa and full with the Cosmic Tree and the beak faced human, another who had a rod or a gun, is piggy-backed on the back of another and water iconography under it all.
dea
> 2) The other thing I was wondering about is regarding the discussion of > the jawbones. What does the glyph for the jawbone, as found on Izapa
> Stela No. 5, stand for? Is this somehow a clue as to the
> significance/importance of the jawbone? Thanks for your consideration,
> Mark Cheney
D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765 http://www.mayalords.org http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
--- On Thu, 2/5/09, Mark C <dustmop at hotmail.com> wrote:
> From: Mark C <dustmop at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Aztlan Digest, Vol 39, Issue 4
> To: "Foundation for Adv. of Mesoamerican Studies" <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 2:15 PM
> Dear Listeros - I have two items I would like to respond to
> in brief: 1) The long-accepted idea that the Ancient
> Americans did not utilize the wheel seems incredible in view
> of the now decades-known fact of the use of wheels on small
> animal figurines, which may have been toys or funerary
> offerings. They have been found in Tres Zapotes, Veracruz,
> Mex., in Cihuatan, San Salvador, and in Yaxchilan, Chiapas,
> Mex. In fact, it has been determined that the Mesoamericans
> knew five different ways to attach an axle, indicating
> skilled technical understanding of the concept. (See
> "Wheeled Toys in Mexico" by Gordon F. Ekholm in
> American Antiquity, 11. 1946. Also, "Salvadoran
> Varieties of Wheeled Figurines" by Stanley H. Boggs in
> Contributions to Mesoamerican Anthropology, Pub. No. 1,
> Miami: Institute of Maya Studies of the Museum of Science,
> 1973.) It is unlikely that the basic mechanical principle of
> the wheel was understood, but never used in larger
> applications. Rather, lack of the w!
> heel seems to be one of those ideas that was purported to
> be true long ago and no one ever challenges. I think it is
> more likely that the wheel had religious significance, e.g.
> representing the Sun God, as in Egypt, and was not allowed
> to be used other than for building sacred edifices, and that
> same type of religious proscription applied to portraying
> the use of the wheel. They did build the sacbeob that could
> have been used for wheeled transport, and there are
> thousands of miles of similar highways in South America.
> Also, if their wheels were made of wood, they would have
> disintegrated along with other wooden implements over the
> centuries. I am thinking that with the end of pyramid
> building and the need to move huge building stones, the
> prohibitions remained in place even if just in the minds of
> the people, and the wheel was no longer used in the
> post-classic and later. There were also those gigantic stone
> wheels found in South America with square axle holes found
> in them!
> . I know that many cultures today still use a simple
> forehead tumpline
> (mecapal) even though they have wheels being used all
> around, even on cars, etc., so that is no proof that they
> did not have the wheel, or that they needed draft animals to
> need or have the wheel.
>
> 2) The other thing I was wondering about is regarding the
> discussion of the jawbones. What does the glyph for the
> jawbone, as found on Izapa Stela No. 5, stand for? Is this
> somehow a clue as to the significance/importance of the
> jawbone?Thanks for your consideration,
> Mark Cheney
>
>
>
> EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOODJoin meFrom:
> aztlan-request at lists.famsi.orgSubject: Aztlan Digest, Vol
> 39, Issue 4To: aztlan at lists.famsi.orgDate: Wed, 4 Feb 2009
> 12:00:02 -0600Send Aztlan mailing list submissions
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> --Forwarded Message Attachment--From:
> szoraster at szoraster.comSubject: [Aztlan] Maya siege
> towers?Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 15:49:57 -0600To:
> Aztlan at lists.famsi.org Reading Marisol Cortes Rincon's
> 2007 dissertation, "A Comparative Study of
> Fortification Developments Throughout The Maya Region
> ..." [1],!
> I learned that in the Temple of the Jaguars at Chichen
> Itza there is a mural showing a Maya siege tower. Actually,
> two Maya siege towers. (page 217 and nearby text). I
> associate siege towers with Assyrians, Romans and Crusaders.
> Expensive and requiring sophisticated engineering on the
> part of the attacking forces. Is there other evidence for
> Maya siege towers? If they were moveable, how is that
> practical without wheels? If not moveable, how did they get
> built inside the range of the defender's projectile
> weapons? Steven Zoraster [1] tinyurl.com/bkyh5e
> --Forwarded Message Attachment--From:
> michaelruggeri at mac.comSubject: [Aztlan] The Archaeology
> Channel's latest video on ChoquequiraoDate: Wed, 4 Feb
> 2009 00:34:39 -0600To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org Listeros, The
> Archaeology Channel's latest video is on the Inca
> fortress of Choquequirao. Here is the
> URL;http://www.archaeologychannel.org Mike Ruggeri Mike
> Ruggeri's The Ancient Americas Breaking News!
> http://web.mac.com/michaelruggeri >> --
> http://gispalenque
> .blogspot.com/http://volunteermayameetings.blogspot.com/
> --Forwarded Message Attachment--From:
> mayavase at verizon.netSubject: [Aztlan] A Speculation on a
> Sacrifice at TeotihuacánDate: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:20:05
> -0500To: aztlan at lists.famsi.orgOn Sacrifice at Teotihuacán
> Some years ago when bodies were discovered in an ancient
> burial, atTeotihuacán with lower jaws as necklaces, I was
> fascinated with the ideathat when they (the ones doing the
> killing, whoever they were) had run outof real lower jaws,
> they created reproductions for those victims who did nothave
> them. The concept teased me, why lower jaws, what was the
> significanceof this particular body part? And now I enter
> the area of pure conjecture. I have been accused for
> manyyears of applying the philosophies of the Popol Vuh, a
> Quiche tale, to themuch broader area of the Maya in general
> and as well to many other areas ofMesoamerica. Where did
> this late classic or post-classic story come from?Did it
> spring up fully formed as!
> Athena springing from the body of Zeus, orwere these
> legends built into the Mesoamerican system and if so for
> howlong? Over the years, many clues emerged that the legends
> of the Popol Vuh wentfar back in time and also that many
> versions may have existed as well asmany tales that we have
> images of, but no inscriptions to back them up orexplain
> them. I admit to being a joiner; that is, seeing
> connections wherenone may readily be apparent. So I throw
> out to this erudite group thepossibility that there is
> reason for not only this particular mass sacrificebut the
> jaw bones themselves. In preparing for the 2009 Maya Meeting
> in Austin; soon to be upon us, Istudied the scene on a well
> know vase K555. This vase has been publishedmany times and
> seems to make reference to a number of stories from the
> PopolVuh. (The members of the vase workshop will be asked to
> toy with this one.)One of the prominent scenes on this vase
> is some little creatures havingtheir lower jaws torn from
> the!
> ir faces by none other than Chak. Why werethese little
> fellows being t
> reated so harshly? Checking with AlanChristenson’s
> translation of the Popol Vuh, we find this passage; The
> Lords of the Otherworld are speaking: Then therefore they
> summoned the guardians flowers:“What is the reason you
> gave our flowers to be stolen?These our flowers these you
> see, … They said therefore.Then also were split open their
> mouths. Their punishment (what) they guarded was stolen.
> {lines starting at 3970} Popol Vuh Volume II, Allen
> Christenson Back to Teotihuacán, my speculation is that
> these sacrificed soldiers withthe lower jaws hanging around
> their necks had somehow been negligent intheir duties or
> were part of a coup that didn’t pan out and had
> thesesymbols of betrayal put around their necks, before they
> were dispatched.Yes, I know it is a far cry from the
> Highland Maya to the plains ofTeotihuacán, but I wonder if
> we look very hard in the direction of the Olmecif we can
> find some evidence there as well. For example, the figures
> K3015and K6145 in Portfolio; ju!
> st two of a group of chinless beings. Justin Kerr
> --Forwarded Message Attachment--From:
> mhopkins at fas.harvard.eduSubject: Re: [Aztlan] A Speculation
> on a Sacrifice at TeotihuacánCC:
> aztlan at lists.famsi.orgDate: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:11:00
> -0500To: mayavase at verizon.netActually, many of the Feathered
> Serpent Pyramid burials were wearing necklaces of maxillae.
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Justin Kerr wrote: > On Sacrifice at
> Teotihuacán>> Some years ago when bodies were
> discovered in an ancient burial, at> Teotihuacán with
> lower jaws as necklaces, I was fascinated with the idea>
> that when they (the ones doing the killing, whoever they
> were) had run out> of real lower jaws, they created
> reproductions for those victims who did not> have them.
> The concept teased me, why lower jaws, what was the
> significance> of this particular body part?>> And
> now I enter the area of pure conjecture. I have been
> accused for many> years of applying the philosophies of
> the Popol Vuh, a Quiche tal!
> e, to the> much broader area of the Maya in general
> and as well to ma
> ny other areas of> Mesoamerica. Where did this late
> classic or post-classic story come from?> Did it spring
> up fully formed as Athena springing from the body of Zeus,
> or> were these legends built into the Mesoamerican system
> and if so for how> long?>> Over the years, many
> clues emerged that the legends of the Popol Vuh went> far
> back in time and also that many versions may have existed
> as well as> many tales that we have images of, but no
> inscriptions to back them up or> explain them. I admit
> to being a joiner; that is, seeing connections where>
> none may readily be apparent. So I throw out to this
> erudite group the> possibility that there is reason for
> not only this particular mass sacrifice> but the jaw
> bones themselves.>> In preparing for the 2009 Maya
> Meeting in Austin; soon to be upon us, I> studied the
> scene on a well know vase K555. This vase has been
> published> many times and seems to make reference to a
> number of stories from the Popol> Vuh. (The members of
> the v!
> ase workshop will be asked to toy with this one.)> One
> of the prominent scenes on this vase is some little
> creatures having> their lower jaws torn from their faces
> by none other than Chak. Why were> these little fellows
> being treated so harshly? Checking with Alan>
> Christenson?s translation of the Popol Vuh, we find this
> passage;>> The Lords of the Otherworld are
> speaking:>> Then therefore they summoned the guardians
> flowers:> ?What is the reason you gave our flowers to be
> stolen?> These our flowers these you see, ?>> They
> said therefore.> Then also were split open their
> mouths.>> Their punishment> (what) they guarded was
> stolen.>> {lines starting at 3970} Popol Vuh Volume
> II, Allen Christenson>> Back to Teotihuacán, my
> speculation is that these sacrificed soldiers with> the
> lower jaws hanging around their necks had somehow been
> negligent in> their duties or were part of a coup that
> didn?t pan out and had these> symbols of betrayal put
> around their necks, before they were d!
> ispatched.> Yes, I know it is a far cry from the
> Highland Maya to the
> plains of> Teotihuacán, but I wonder if we look very
> hard in the direction of the Olmec> if we can find some
> evidence there as well. For example, the figures K3015>
> and K6145 in Portfolio; just two of a group of chinless
> beings.>> Justin Kerr>>>>>>>>
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