[Aztlan] Aztlan Digest, Vol 38, Issue 10
Janice Van Cleve
janicevc at seanet.com
Mon Jan 12 12:52:19 CST 2009
There is a difference between "recognition" of race and "preoccupation" with
race. Both racists and politically correct anti-racists seem to me to allow
their ideologies to trump unbiased scientific work. The Maya in the area of
the world I am working on - Copan in Honduras - appear to have been very
aware of the fact that they were racially different from the Lenca peoples
who inhabited the lands east of them. They did trade with each other,
however, and it appears some Lenca families lived in Copan and mingled with
the Maya there. I don't see evidence of racially motivated activities -
like slavery, choosing one race or another to be guests of honor at the next
sacrifice, or even economic discrimination. Many cultural factors - like
local government organizations, architecture, agriculture, ceramic patterns,
etc. - appear to have been shared or not between Maya and Lenca in complete
disregard for race. I do not know enough about Lenca language patterns or
religious practices to understand differences or similarities there. The
Maya were very conscious about bloodlines, especially among the elite
classes, and this was one of the primary factors in my biography of Eighteen
Rabbit.
Janice Van Cleve, MA
Author of "Eighteen Rabbit: The Intimate Life and Tragic Death of a Maya
God-King." available through Xlibris.com or Amazon.com. 2006
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Today's Topics:
1. race and ethnicity in the past (Michael Smith)
2. Perspectivism (Sam Edgerton)
3. Michael Coe's library on eBay ... (EJ Albright)
4. Ancient village found on Mexico border (michael ruggeri)
5. Re: race and ethnicity in the past (D. Mylne)
6. Re: race and ethnicity in the past (D. M. Urquidi)
7. Re: race and ethnicity in the past (Ryan Kashanipour)
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:26:31 -0700
From: Michael Smith <Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu>
Subject: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past
To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID:
<F97F402E6CF9B54EAEDC7F2AB1D719C403EC9961 at EX05.asurite.ad.asu.edu>
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I always find it puzzling why people get so worked up about racial and
ethnic origins and affiliations in the past. Is this what is most
important about past peoples? My perspective has always been that it is
the achievements of ancient peoples-their actions and the consequences
of their actions-that deserves our attention and respect. Does it really
matter whether the Kennewick guy looked like Jean-Luc Piccard or not?
Can we use the politically un-correct term Caucasion in talking about
the ancient New world? Yes, it is good to be able to trace origins and
movements historically, but the amount of public attention to such
issues seems to dwarf consideration for more mundane issues about what
people actually did in the past.
On several occasions, when discussing Mesoamerica with nonspecialists, I
have found that people get very frustrated when I refuse to pin an
ethnic identifier onto the people of Teotihuacan. But were they Aztecs,
or Mayas, or Zapotecs, or what, they ask? When I say that they were the
people of Teotihuacan and we don't know what language they spoke or
whether they were genetic ancestors of known Postclassic ethnic groups,
people are not satisfied. They want an ethnic label.
I don't care very much what language the Teotihuacanos spoke
(personally, as a linguistically-challenged archaeologist, I kind of
like the Kaufman and Justeson model for a Mixe-Zoque language at Teo). I
am interested in the people of Teo for the way they built their city,
for how they farmed, for the kinds of rituals or craft activities they
participated in, for how they traveled to other areas and how they
interpreted information from other areas, for the ways they constructed
and lived with class differences, for the type of government they forged
(or, the type of government they put up with, or perhaps overturned),
etc. etc.
Ethnic affiliations and origins may or may not have been important in
the lives of the ancient peoples, and we may or may not be able to
reconstruct this kind of information for past populations. But there is
an awful lot that we CAN learn about ancient peoples that has little to
do with ethnic or racial categories. I find it odd that so many modern
people get so worked up over what seem to me minor characteristics that
generally are difficult to impossible to reconstruct. Perhaps it is our
modern obsession with race and ethnicity and identity in the modern
world that makes us obsessed with research about these issues in the
ancient past.
Mike
Michael E. Smith, Professor
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Arizona State University
www.public.asu.edu/~mesmith9
http://publishingarchaeology.blogspot.com
http://calixtlahuaca.blogspot.com
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:45:10 -0500
From: Sam Edgerton <Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu>
Subject: [Aztlan] Perspectivism
To: mailto:
Message-ID:
<5.2.1.1.2.20090109103218.039c3360 at facstaffmail.williams.edu>
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Listeros:
As some of you know, I am an art historian also specializing in
the Italian Renaissance, with particular interest in the advent of
geometric linear perspective. Recently, while preparing a new book on that
subject (now in press) I googled up the word "perspectivism" thinking it
had something to do with my topic. To my surprise, the term had no
relation to art at all, but rather identified a wholly different
"perspective" discipline that immediately aroused my curiosity. I've just
now learned that the term was invented long ago by Friedrich Nietzsche to
explain how (I'm quoting here from the Wikipedia definition) "all
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation>ideations take place from particular
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_%28cognitive%29>perspectives...[th
at
is from] many possible
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_scheme>conceptual schemes...which
determine any possible judgment of
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth>truth or value that we may
make...[which] implies that no way of seeing the world can be taken as
definitively "true"...."
Such a definition, it occurred to me, seems to embrace exactly
what we AZTLAN listeros love to argue about. Perspectivism might even offer
a clearer prism through which to "view" our subject since it also purports
to avoid the usual politicized mantras of cultural relativism.
Anyway, I've already introduced perspectivism to the AZTLAN list
in response to a recent assertion that Aztec eagle warriors might actually
have been able to fly. I was especially intrigued because this idea,
however outlandish it may sound at first, links to a longer thread that has
quite frequently provoked AZTLAN discussions, namely that ancient Native
Americans did possess secret capabilities which we moderns today assume
were only the later benefits of Western science. Before pursuing this
further, let me unequivocally state that there is no scientific possibility
that any heavier-than-air Aztec, Maya or anyone else in the world (not even
Leonardo da Vinci) could physically fly like a winged bird - that is
before the Wright brothers discovered the aerodynamic principles that
finally made it possible..
Nonetheless I have no doubt that the native cultural
contemporaries of those Aztec and Maya eagle knights sincerely believed
their heroes had such supernatural powers. This was not a foolish delusion.
They were responding to their own traditional cultural perspective in the
same archetypal way as our own modern visionaries who claim as avidly to
have eye-witnessed flying saucers. Only today's archetypal myths are less
concerned with divine intermediacy and more with invading Martian
cosmonauts. Even though I'm just as skeptical of the latter as I am of
Aztec bird-men and think it's healthier within the perspective of our
modern science-nurtured paradigm, to "see" and then believe, I'm also
humbly aware that it's just as innately human to believe and then to "see."
Finally, here's another provocative "perspective" by the same
native chronicler of the Annals of Cakchiquel, continuing his description
of the war between the K'ich'e and the Spanish invaders. Just before the
confrontation between Tecum Uman and Alverado, the chronicler related how
other Indian captains also "flying as eagles" tried to kill the Spanish
leader, but were repulsed by a "very fair maiden.....As soon as [the
Indians] saw the maiden they fell to the earth and could not get up from
the ground, and then came many footless birds...[which] surrounded this
maiden, and the Indians wanted to kill the maiden and those footless birds
defended her and blinded them....[next] an exceedingly white dove [flew]
above all the Spaniards..." causing the native attackers again to be
"blinded and fall down."
From my art history-nurtured perspective, I "know" what the
K'ich'e "really" saw: the Spanish conquistadors frequently carried banners
into battle depicting the Virgin Mary and other Christian images including
the dove as symbol of the Holy Spirit. Such images would often be
surrounded by little flying cherubs, represented as disembodied baby heads
with wings. Now, as an advocate of perspectivism, I'm just as curious to
"know" what the K'ich'e "really saw" from their peculiar point of view.
How indeed, fellow listeros, can we "really" get behind the eyes
of peoples from other civilizations, and behold the world through the
million synapses of their own culture-nurtured brains - and then be able to
transfer their unique impressions into our own culture-nurtured mind's eye
- without patronizing prejudice or romantic sentiment?
Sam Edgerton
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 08:07:48 -0800 (PST)
From: EJ Albright <vanjayal at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] Michael Coe's library on eBay ...
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <491866.61751.qm at web54602.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dear Listeros,
While surfing eBay, I came across several books from Michael Coe's personal
library have been put up for sale, including several rare works related to
the study of Mesoamerica.
You can find a list of them here: http://tinyurl.com/7djnvb
Saludos!
E.J. Albright
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:13:58 -0600
From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
Subject: [Aztlan] Ancient village found on Mexico border
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <56ED8D9A-E1C3-438B-BF30-BD0F8A6BC7E3 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Listeros,
An ancient village dating between 700-1200 CE has been uncovered near
the Tucson Basin on the Mexico/US border. Ceramic analysis shows some
Hohokam characteristics but the mix of artifacts show the village to
be a frontier site peripheral to Mexico and the north. 23 pit houses,
97 thermal pits, 5 dog burials and 69 human burials have been found. A
"stone jaw bone" with a serrated edge probably used for scraping hides
was uncovered and a lot of deer bone.
Mexican archaeologists are also interested in the site.
The Sierra Vista Journal has the story here;
http://www.svherald.com/articles/2009/01/09/news/doc4966f5869ba07167469550.p
rt
A tiny URL;
http://tinyurl.com/9tz87y
Mike Ruggeri
Mike Ruggeri's The Casas Grandes World and the Turquoise Road
http://tinyurl.com/62wp8z
Ruggeri's The Ancient Southwest
http://tinyurl.com/2j8whx
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:01:01 -0700
From: "D. Mylne" <mylne21 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past
To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <BAY104-W51E37644D47F46C4496873BFDB0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
When an ancient people saw another ancient people, they saw a group that was
different in multiple ways - race, nation, language, diet, political
organization, administrative procedure, military form and style, art and
architecture; religious, philosophical, teleological perspective.
If that is the case, then it is the overall supraethnic culture that ancient
peoples would identify as significant, rather than race or language or
religion alone.
So, I agree that it is their achievements that deserve our respect. Yet all
factors, including race and ethnicity do deserve our attention. Each is
part and parcel of the whole.
> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:26:31 -0700> From: Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu>
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Subject: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the
past> > I always find it puzzling why people get so worked up about racial
and> ethnic origins and affiliations in the past. Is this what is most>
important about past peoples? My perspective has always been that it is> the
achievements of ancient peoples-their actions and the consequences> of their
actions-that deserves our attention and respect.
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:32:47 -0800 (PST)
From: "D. M. Urquidi" <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past
To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
Message-ID: <290133.15579.qm at web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Michael Smith
The problem with ignoring language components is that without the
comparisons, huge gaps occur in knowledge. Not knowing that one glyph here
might be translated as something else some where else, i.e. Soda is a word
we all recognize, but 'pop' is one found in the morth, 'coke' is used by
another group of US citizens. . . . put all use the same iconography for the
concept of a aereated fruity or 'rooty' drink.
The various language bases tell a lot about their learning ability or where
they may have learned how to construct a building or a road. Without a broad
base with which to work, there is no connection between polities, so the
Inca had nothing to do with the Maya, or the Aztecs or North Americas, or
probably Brazilians at the mouth of the Amazon. Their icons are different,
their building blocks are different, but was there ever a connection that
could be traced by the language.
I believe there are those connections, and by ignoring them, big gaps exist
in our knowledge of a culture, any culture.
Dea
D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765
http://www.mayalords.org??
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Michael Smith <Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu>
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 03:30:02 +0000
From: Ryan Kashanipour <rykash at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past
To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <BAY109-W2697DD037035BE90E264CFD5D80 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Professor Smith,
I do believe that you have addressed the issue at its core:
"Perhaps it is our modern obsession with race and ethnicity and identity in
the modern
world that makes us obsessed with research about these issues in the ancient
past."
Presuming that we have objective knowledge--of "race" or language--ignores
the subjectivities of our perspectives.
And constructions of race and ethnicity should always be historically
delimited.
Cordially,
Ryan
R.A. Kashanipour
Department of History
The University of Arizona
> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:32:47 -0800
> From: deamayaspin at yahoo.com
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past
>
> Michael Smith
>
> The problem with ignoring language components is that without the
comparisons, huge gaps occur in knowledge. Not knowing that one glyph here
might be translated as something else some where else, i.e. Soda is a word
we all recognize, but 'pop' is one found in the morth, 'coke' is used by
another group of US citizens. . . . put all use the same iconography for the
concept of a aereated fruity or 'rooty' drink.
>
> The various language bases tell a lot about their learning ability or
where they may have learned how to construct a building or a road. Without a
broad base with which to work, there is no connection between polities, so
the Inca had nothing to do with the Maya, or the Aztecs or North Americas,
or probably Brazilians at the mouth of the Amazon. Their icons are
different, their building blocks are different, but was there ever a
connection that could be traced by the language.
>
> I believe there are those connections, and by ignoring them, big gaps
exist in our knowledge of a culture, any culture.
>
> Dea
>
> D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765
http://www.mayalords.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
>
>
> --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Michael Smith <Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu>
>
>
>
>
>
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