[Aztlan] Aztlan Digest, Vol 38, Issue 10
Benjamin Carter
spondylus.princeps at gmail.com
Mon Jan 12 17:10:30 CST 2009
Race is simply ethinicity with a supposed biological basis.
Anthropologists talk about population, not races (anymore). What you are
talking about is ethnicity. Was there a presumed biological difference
in the minds of the Maya? Perhaps, but that is not something that we can
know archaeologically (or even ethnohistorically, in my opinion). We
can, however, distinguish clear differences between archaeological
populations in Honduras, in their material culture, architecture, etc..
The Maya, at least the elite, were very clearly concerned ancestry, but
the 'Lenca' probably were as well and may have considered their own
culture better than the Maya, much as many people around the world today
believe that their own cultures, though perhaps not as technologically
complex, are better than those in the Western world.
I would suggest that recognition of "race" is a "preoccupation" with
"race". The scientific recognition of biological differences between
populations is however an important scientific endeavor. Race is an
extremely slippery concept, but which populations have which skeletal
traits can be identified relatively easily. Note that these populations
rarely line up with our popular conceptions of "race".
Race can very easily change. The same person can be Black or African
American in the US, but brunette in Brazil.
Ben
Janice Van Cleve wrote:
> There is a difference between "recognition" of race and "preoccupation" with
> race. Both racists and politically correct anti-racists seem to me to allow
> their ideologies to trump unbiased scientific work. The Maya in the area of
> the world I am working on - Copan in Honduras - appear to have been very
> aware of the fact that they were racially different from the Lenca peoples
> who inhabited the lands east of them. They did trade with each other,
> however, and it appears some Lenca families lived in Copan and mingled with
> the Maya there. I don't see evidence of racially motivated activities -
> like slavery, choosing one race or another to be guests of honor at the next
> sacrifice, or even economic discrimination. Many cultural factors - like
> local government organizations, architecture, agriculture, ceramic patterns,
> etc. - appear to have been shared or not between Maya and Lenca in complete
> disregard for race. I do not know enough about Lenca language patterns or
> religious practices to understand differences or similarities there. The
> Maya were very conscious about bloodlines, especially among the elite
> classes, and this was one of the primary factors in my biography of Eighteen
> Rabbit.
>
> Janice Van Cleve, MA
> Author of "Eighteen Rabbit: The Intimate Life and Tragic Death of a Maya
> God-King." available through Xlibris.com or Amazon.com. 2006
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org
> [mailto:aztlan-bounces at lists.famsi.org]On Behalf Of
> aztlan-request at lists.famsi.org
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:00 AM
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Subject: Aztlan Digest, Vol 38, Issue 10
>
>
> Send Aztlan mailing list submissions to
> aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> aztlan-request at lists.famsi.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> aztlan-owner at lists.famsi.org
>
> When replying, please change the Subject line of your email to match
> the exact topic being discussed, and delete all but the most important
> text from previous messages.
>
>
> When replying, please remove all topics not related to your reply.
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. race and ethnicity in the past (Michael Smith)
> 2. Perspectivism (Sam Edgerton)
> 3. Michael Coe's library on eBay ... (EJ Albright)
> 4. Ancient village found on Mexico border (michael ruggeri)
> 5. Re: race and ethnicity in the past (D. Mylne)
> 6. Re: race and ethnicity in the past (D. M. Urquidi)
> 7. Re: race and ethnicity in the past (Ryan Kashanipour)
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:26:31 -0700
> From: Michael Smith <Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu>
> Subject: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past
> To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID:
> <F97F402E6CF9B54EAEDC7F2AB1D719C403EC9961 at EX05.asurite.ad.asu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I always find it puzzling why people get so worked up about racial and
> ethnic origins and affiliations in the past. Is this what is most
> important about past peoples? My perspective has always been that it is
> the achievements of ancient peoples-their actions and the consequences
> of their actions-that deserves our attention and respect. Does it really
> matter whether the Kennewick guy looked like Jean-Luc Piccard or not?
> Can we use the politically un-correct term Caucasion in talking about
> the ancient New world? Yes, it is good to be able to trace origins and
> movements historically, but the amount of public attention to such
> issues seems to dwarf consideration for more mundane issues about what
> people actually did in the past.
>
> On several occasions, when discussing Mesoamerica with nonspecialists, I
> have found that people get very frustrated when I refuse to pin an
> ethnic identifier onto the people of Teotihuacan. But were they Aztecs,
> or Mayas, or Zapotecs, or what, they ask? When I say that they were the
> people of Teotihuacan and we don't know what language they spoke or
> whether they were genetic ancestors of known Postclassic ethnic groups,
> people are not satisfied. They want an ethnic label.
>
> I don't care very much what language the Teotihuacanos spoke
> (personally, as a linguistically-challenged archaeologist, I kind of
> like the Kaufman and Justeson model for a Mixe-Zoque language at Teo). I
> am interested in the people of Teo for the way they built their city,
> for how they farmed, for the kinds of rituals or craft activities they
> participated in, for how they traveled to other areas and how they
> interpreted information from other areas, for the ways they constructed
> and lived with class differences, for the type of government they forged
> (or, the type of government they put up with, or perhaps overturned),
> etc. etc.
>
> Ethnic affiliations and origins may or may not have been important in
> the lives of the ancient peoples, and we may or may not be able to
> reconstruct this kind of information for past populations. But there is
> an awful lot that we CAN learn about ancient peoples that has little to
> do with ethnic or racial categories. I find it odd that so many modern
> people get so worked up over what seem to me minor characteristics that
> generally are difficult to impossible to reconstruct. Perhaps it is our
> modern obsession with race and ethnicity and identity in the modern
> world that makes us obsessed with research about these issues in the
> ancient past.
>
> Mike
>
> Michael E. Smith, Professor
> School of Human Evolution & Social Change
> Arizona State University
> www.public.asu.edu/~mesmith9
> http://publishingarchaeology.blogspot.com
> http://calixtlahuaca.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:45:10 -0500
> From: Sam Edgerton <Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu>
> Subject: [Aztlan] Perspectivism
> To: mailto:
> Message-ID:
> <5.2.1.1.2.20090109103218.039c3360 at facstaffmail.williams.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Listeros:
> As some of you know, I am an art historian also specializing in
> the Italian Renaissance, with particular interest in the advent of
> geometric linear perspective. Recently, while preparing a new book on that
> subject (now in press) I googled up the word "perspectivism" thinking it
> had something to do with my topic. To my surprise, the term had no
> relation to art at all, but rather identified a wholly different
> "perspective" discipline that immediately aroused my curiosity. I've just
> now learned that the term was invented long ago by Friedrich Nietzsche to
> explain how (I'm quoting here from the Wikipedia definition) "all
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation>ideations take place from particular
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_%28cognitive%29>perspectives...[th
> at
> is from] many possible
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_scheme>conceptual schemes...which
> determine any possible judgment of
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth>truth or value that we may
> make...[which] implies that no way of seeing the world can be taken as
> definitively "true"...."
> Such a definition, it occurred to me, seems to embrace exactly
> what we AZTLAN listeros love to argue about. Perspectivism might even offer
> a clearer prism through which to "view" our subject since it also purports
> to avoid the usual politicized mantras of cultural relativism.
> Anyway, I've already introduced perspectivism to the AZTLAN list
> in response to a recent assertion that Aztec eagle warriors might actually
> have been able to fly. I was especially intrigued because this idea,
> however outlandish it may sound at first, links to a longer thread that has
> quite frequently provoked AZTLAN discussions, namely that ancient Native
> Americans did possess secret capabilities which we moderns today assume
> were only the later benefits of Western science. Before pursuing this
> further, let me unequivocally state that there is no scientific possibility
> that any heavier-than-air Aztec, Maya or anyone else in the world (not even
> Leonardo da Vinci) could physically fly like a winged bird - that is
> before the Wright brothers discovered the aerodynamic principles that
> finally made it possible..
> Nonetheless I have no doubt that the native cultural
> contemporaries of those Aztec and Maya eagle knights sincerely believed
> their heroes had such supernatural powers. This was not a foolish delusion.
> They were responding to their own traditional cultural perspective in the
> same archetypal way as our own modern visionaries who claim as avidly to
> have eye-witnessed flying saucers. Only today's archetypal myths are less
> concerned with divine intermediacy and more with invading Martian
> cosmonauts. Even though I'm just as skeptical of the latter as I am of
> Aztec bird-men and think it's healthier within the perspective of our
> modern science-nurtured paradigm, to "see" and then believe, I'm also
> humbly aware that it's just as innately human to believe and then to "see."
> Finally, here's another provocative "perspective" by the same
> native chronicler of the Annals of Cakchiquel, continuing his description
> of the war between the K'ich'e and the Spanish invaders. Just before the
> confrontation between Tecum Uman and Alverado, the chronicler related how
> other Indian captains also "flying as eagles" tried to kill the Spanish
> leader, but were repulsed by a "very fair maiden.....As soon as [the
> Indians] saw the maiden they fell to the earth and could not get up from
> the ground, and then came many footless birds...[which] surrounded this
> maiden, and the Indians wanted to kill the maiden and those footless birds
> defended her and blinded them....[next] an exceedingly white dove [flew]
> above all the Spaniards..." causing the native attackers again to be
> "blinded and fall down."
> From my art history-nurtured perspective, I "know" what the
> K'ich'e "really" saw: the Spanish conquistadors frequently carried banners
> into battle depicting the Virgin Mary and other Christian images including
> the dove as symbol of the Holy Spirit. Such images would often be
> surrounded by little flying cherubs, represented as disembodied baby heads
> with wings. Now, as an advocate of perspectivism, I'm just as curious to
> "know" what the K'ich'e "really saw" from their peculiar point of view.
> How indeed, fellow listeros, can we "really" get behind the eyes
> of peoples from other civilizations, and behold the world through the
> million synapses of their own culture-nurtured brains - and then be able to
> transfer their unique impressions into our own culture-nurtured mind's eye
> - without patronizing prejudice or romantic sentiment?
> Sam Edgerton
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 08:07:48 -0800 (PST)
> From: EJ Albright <vanjayal at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Aztlan] Michael Coe's library on eBay ...
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Message-ID: <491866.61751.qm at web54602.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
>
> Dear Listeros,
>
> While surfing eBay, I came across several books from Michael Coe's personal
> library have been put up for sale, including several rare works related to
> the study of Mesoamerica.
>
> You can find a list of them here: http://tinyurl.com/7djnvb
>
> Saludos!
>
> E.J. Albright
>
>
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:13:58 -0600
> From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
> Subject: [Aztlan] Ancient village found on Mexico border
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Message-ID: <56ED8D9A-E1C3-438B-BF30-BD0F8A6BC7E3 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Listeros,
>
> An ancient village dating between 700-1200 CE has been uncovered near
> the Tucson Basin on the Mexico/US border. Ceramic analysis shows some
> Hohokam characteristics but the mix of artifacts show the village to
> be a frontier site peripheral to Mexico and the north. 23 pit houses,
> 97 thermal pits, 5 dog burials and 69 human burials have been found. A
> "stone jaw bone" with a serrated edge probably used for scraping hides
> was uncovered and a lot of deer bone.
>
> Mexican archaeologists are also interested in the site.
>
> The Sierra Vista Journal has the story here;
> http://www.svherald.com/articles/2009/01/09/news/doc4966f5869ba07167469550.p
> rt
>
> A tiny URL;
> http://tinyurl.com/9tz87y
>
> Mike Ruggeri
>
>
> Mike Ruggeri's The Casas Grandes World and the Turquoise Road
> http://tinyurl.com/62wp8z
>
>
> Ruggeri's The Ancient Southwest
> http://tinyurl.com/2j8whx
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:01:01 -0700
> From: "D. Mylne" <mylne21 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past
> To: Aztlan <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY104-W51E37644D47F46C4496873BFDB0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
>
> When an ancient people saw another ancient people, they saw a group that was
> different in multiple ways - race, nation, language, diet, political
> organization, administrative procedure, military form and style, art and
> architecture; religious, philosophical, teleological perspective.
>
> If that is the case, then it is the overall supraethnic culture that ancient
> peoples would identify as significant, rather than race or language or
> religion alone.
> So, I agree that it is their achievements that deserve our respect. Yet all
> factors, including race and ethnicity do deserve our attention. Each is
> part and parcel of the whole.
>
>
>> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:26:31 -0700> From: Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu>
>>
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Subject: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the
> past> > I always find it puzzling why people get so worked up about racial
> and> ethnic origins and affiliations in the past. Is this what is most>
> important about past peoples? My perspective has always been that it is> the
> achievements of ancient peoples-their actions and the consequences> of their
> actions-that deserves our attention and respect.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:32:47 -0800 (PST)
> From: "D. M. Urquidi" <deamayaspin at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Message-ID: <290133.15579.qm at web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Michael Smith
>
> The problem with ignoring language components is that without the
> comparisons, huge gaps occur in knowledge. Not knowing that one glyph here
> might be translated as something else some where else, i.e. Soda is a word
> we all recognize, but 'pop' is one found in the morth, 'coke' is used by
> another group of US citizens. . . . put all use the same iconography for the
> concept of a aereated fruity or 'rooty' drink.
>
> The various language bases tell a lot about their learning ability or where
> they may have learned how to construct a building or a road. Without a broad
> base with which to work, there is no connection between polities, so the
> Inca had nothing to do with the Maya, or the Aztecs or North Americas, or
> probably Brazilians at the mouth of the Amazon. Their icons are different,
> their building blocks are different, but was there ever a connection that
> could be traced by the language.
>
> I believe there are those connections, and by ignoring them, big gaps exist
> in our knowledge of a culture, any culture.
>
> Dea
>
> D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765
> http://www.mayalords.org??
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
>
>
> --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Michael Smith <Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 03:30:02 +0000
> From: Ryan Kashanipour <rykash at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past
> To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY109-W2697DD037035BE90E264CFD5D80 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
>
> Professor Smith,
>
> I do believe that you have addressed the issue at its core:
>
> "Perhaps it is our modern obsession with race and ethnicity and identity in
> the modern
> world that makes us obsessed with research about these issues in the ancient
> past."
>
> Presuming that we have objective knowledge--of "race" or language--ignores
> the subjectivities of our perspectives.
> And constructions of race and ethnicity should always be historically
> delimited.
>
> Cordially,
> Ryan
>
> R.A. Kashanipour
> Department of History
> The University of Arizona
>
>
>
>> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:32:47 -0800
>> From: deamayaspin at yahoo.com
>> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past
>>
>> Michael Smith
>>
>> The problem with ignoring language components is that without the
>>
> comparisons, huge gaps occur in knowledge. Not knowing that one glyph here
> might be translated as something else some where else, i.e. Soda is a word
> we all recognize, but 'pop' is one found in the morth, 'coke' is used by
> another group of US citizens. . . . put all use the same iconography for the
> concept of a aereated fruity or 'rooty' drink.
>
>> The various language bases tell a lot about their learning ability or
>>
> where they may have learned how to construct a building or a road. Without a
> broad base with which to work, there is no connection between polities, so
> the Inca had nothing to do with the Maya, or the Aztecs or North Americas,
> or probably Brazilians at the mouth of the Amazon. Their icons are
> different, their building blocks are different, but was there ever a
> connection that could be traced by the language.
>
>> I believe there are those connections, and by ignoring them, big gaps
>>
> exist in our knowledge of a culture, any culture.
>
>> Dea
>>
>> D. M. Urquidi P. O. Box 49485 Austin, Texas 78765
>>
> http://www.mayalords.org
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/
>
>> --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Michael Smith <Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Aztlan mailing list
>> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>> Click to view Calendar of Events
>>
> http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php
>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009
>
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
> --**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**--**
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> Click here to send a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>
>
> End of Aztlan Digest, Vol 38, Issue 10
> **************************************
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.6/1888 - Release Date: 1/12/2009
> 7:04 AM
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php
>
>
>
More information about the Aztlan
mailing list