[Aztlan] Aztlan Digest, Vol 38, Issue 10

Tue Jan 13 18:53:25 CST 2009

HI Mike, 

I really like  your take on the people of Teotihuacan.
I cannot speak for all people, but to maybe help you see why some people are "obsessed" with the ethnicity of the people of Teotihuacan can maybe stem from that fact that as Mexicans and Central Americans our Indigenous history has been institutionally diminished and belittled and as a people, we would like to know everything about our ancestors. 

It is obviously difficult to know exactly what role "race" played in the lives of my ancestors, since the term "race" as I understand it is a very western take on human differences and created to maintain to false notion of superiority, however as a Mexican , and student of Mesoamerican studies, the study of the culture of "these ethnic peoples" is very close to me since it is what makes my heritage.

For some Mesoamerican history may be a puzzle but to me it is the foundation of my identity. Much like the Mexica who wanted to model themselves from the Toltec, it is important to learn about the different connections and bloodlines that my ancient peoples had because it is a huge piece of the puzzle that has been missing in this Euro-centric approach to the explaining of my history.

Just thought I'd share with you, why I tend to ask those questions myself.

Citlalmina AnahuacFrom: aztlan-request at lists.famsi.orgSubject: Aztlan Digest, Vol 38, Issue 10To: aztlan at lists.famsi.orgDate: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:00:01 -0600Send Aztlan mailing list submissions to	aztlan at lists.famsi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit	http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlanor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to	aztlan-request at lists.famsi.org You can reach the person managing the list at	aztlan-owner at lists.famsi.org When replying, please change the Subject line of your email to matchthe exact topic being discussed, and delete all but the most importanttext from previous messages.--Forwarded Message Attachment--From: Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.eduSubject: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the pastDate: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:26:31 -0700To: aztlan at lists.famsi.orgI always find it puzzling why people get so worked up about racial andethnic origins and affiliations in the past. Is this what is mostimportant about past peoples? My perspective has always been that it isthe achievements of ancient peoples-their actions and the consequencesof their actions-that deserves our attention and respect. Does it reallymatter whether the Kennewick guy looked like Jean-Luc Piccard or not?Can we use the politically un-correct term Caucasion in talking aboutthe ancient New world? Yes, it is good to be able to trace origins andmovements historically, but the amount of public attention to suchissues seems to dwarf consideration for more mundane issues about whatpeople actually did in the past. On several occasions, when discussing Mesoamerica with nonspecialists, Ihave found that people get very frustrated when I refuse to pin anethnic identifier onto the people of Teotihuacan. But were they Aztecs,or Mayas, or Zapotecs, or what, they ask? When I say that they were thepeople of Teotihuacan and we don't know what language they spoke orwhether they were genetic ancestors of known Postclassic ethnic groups,people are not satisfied. They want an ethnic label. I don't care very much what language the Teotihuacanos spoke(personally, as a linguistically-challenged archaeologist, I kind oflike the Kaufman and Justeson model for a Mixe-Zoque language at Teo). Iam interested in the people of Teo for the way they built their city,for how they farmed, for the kinds of rituals or craft activities theyparticipated in, for how they traveled to other areas and how theyinterpreted information from other areas, for the ways they constructedand lived with class differences, for the type of government they forged(or, the type of government they put up with, or perhaps overturned),etc. etc. Ethnic affiliations and origins may or may not have been important inthe lives of the ancient peoples, and we may or may not be able toreconstruct this kind of information for past populations. But there isan awful lot that we CAN learn about ancient peoples that has little todo with ethnic or racial categories. I find it odd that so many modernpeople get so worked up over what seem to me minor characteristics thatgenerally are difficult to impossible to reconstruct. Perhaps it is ourmodern obsession with race and ethnicity and identity in the modernworld that makes us obsessed with research about these issues in theancient past. Mike Michael E. Smith, ProfessorSchool of Human Evolution & Social ChangeArizona State Universitywww.public.asu.edu/~mesmith9http://publishingarchaeology.blogspot.comhttp://calixtlahuaca.blogspot.com   --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.eduSubject: [Aztlan] PerspectivismDate: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:45:10 -0500To: Listeros:         As some of you know, I am an art historian also specializing in the Italian Renaissance, with particular interest in the advent of geometric linear perspective.  Recently, while preparing a new book on that subject (now in press) I googled up the word "perspectivism" thinking it had something to do with my topic.  To my surprise, the term had no relation to art at all, but  rather identified a wholly different "perspective" discipline that immediately aroused my curiosity.  I've just now learned  that  the term was invented long ago by Friedrich Nietzsche to explain how (I'm quoting here from the Wikipedia definition) "all <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation>ideations take place from particular <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_%28cognitive%29>perspectives...[that is from] many possible <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_scheme>conceptual schemes...which determine any possible judgment of <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth>truth or value that we may make...[which] implies that no way of seeing the world can be taken as definitively "true"...."         Such a definition, it occurred to me, seems to embrace exactly what we AZTLAN listeros love to argue about. Perspectivism might even offer a clearer prism through which to "view" our subject since it also purports to avoid the usual politicized mantras of  cultural relativism.         Anyway, I've already  introduced perspectivism to the AZTLAN list in response to a recent assertion that Aztec eagle warriors might actually have been able to fly.  I was especially intrigued because this idea, however outlandish it may sound at first, links to a longer thread that has quite frequently provoked AZTLAN discussions, namely that ancient Native Americans did possess secret capabilities which we moderns today assume were only the later benefits of Western science. Before pursuing this further, let me unequivocally state that there is no scientific possibility that any heavier-than-air Aztec, Maya or anyone else in the world (not even Leonardo da Vinci) could physically  fly like a winged bird - that is before the Wright brothers discovered the aerodynamic principles that finally made it possible..         Nonetheless I have no doubt that the native cultural contemporaries of those Aztec and Maya eagle knights sincerely believed their heroes had such supernatural powers. This was not a foolish delusion. They were responding to their own traditional cultural perspective in the same archetypal way as our own modern visionaries who claim as avidly to have eye-witnessed flying saucers.  Only today's archetypal myths are less concerned with divine intermediacy and more with invading Martian cosmonauts. Even though I'm just as skeptical of the latter as I am of Aztec bird-men and think it's healthier within the perspective of our modern science-nurtured paradigm,  to "see" and then believe, I'm also humbly aware that it's just as innately human to believe and then to "see."         Finally, here's another provocative "perspective" by the same native chronicler of the Annals of Cakchiquel, continuing his description of the war between the K'ich'e and the Spanish invaders. Just before the confrontation between Tecum Uman and Alverado, the chronicler related how other Indian captains also "flying as eagles" tried to kill the Spanish leader,  but were repulsed by a "very fair maiden.....As soon as [the Indians] saw the maiden they fell to the earth and could not get up from the ground, and then came many footless birds...[which] surrounded this maiden, and the Indians wanted to kill the maiden and those footless birds defended her and blinded them....[next] an exceedingly white dove [flew] above all the Spaniards..." causing the native attackers again to be "blinded and fall down."         From my art history-nurtured perspective, I "know" what the K'ich'e "really" saw:  the Spanish conquistadors frequently carried banners into battle depicting the Virgin Mary and other Christian images including the dove as symbol of the Holy Spirit. Such images would often be surrounded by little flying cherubs, represented as disembodied baby heads with wings.  Now, as an advocate of perspectivism,  I'm just as curious to "know" what the K'ich'e "really saw" from their peculiar point of view.         How indeed, fellow listeros,  can we "really" get behind the eyes of peoples from other civilizations, and behold the  world through the million synapses of their own culture-nurtured brains - and then be able to transfer their unique impressions into our own culture-nurtured mind's eye -  without patronizing prejudice or romantic sentiment?Sam Edgerton           --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: vanjayal at yahoo.comSubject: [Aztlan] Michael Coe's library on eBay ...Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 08:07:48 -0800To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org   Dear Listeros, While surfing eBay, I came across several books from Michael Coe's personal library have been put up for sale, including several rare works related to the study of Mesoamerica.  You can find a list of them here: http://tinyurl.com/7djnvb Saludos! E.J. Albright        --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: michaelruggeri at mac.comSubject: [Aztlan] Ancient village found on Mexico borderDate: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:13:58 -0600To: aztlan at lists.famsi.orgListeros, An ancient village dating between 700-1200 CE has been uncovered near  the Tucson Basin on the Mexico/US border. Ceramic analysis shows some  Hohokam characteristics but the mix of artifacts show the village to  be a frontier site peripheral to Mexico and the north. 23 pit houses,  97 thermal pits, 5 dog burials and 69 human burials have been found. A  "stone jaw bone" with a serrated edge probably used for scraping hides  was uncovered and a lot of deer bone. Mexican archaeologists are also interested in the site. The Sierra Vista Journal has the story here;http://www.svherald.com/articles/2009/01/09/news/doc4966f5869ba07167469550.prt A tiny URL;http://tinyurl.com/9tz87y Mike Ruggeri  Mike Ruggeri's The Casas Grandes World and the Turquoise Roadhttp://tinyurl.com/62wp8z  Ruggeri's The Ancient Southwesthttp://tinyurl.com/2j8whx--Forwarded Message Attachment--From: mylne21 at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the pastDate: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:01:01 -0700To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org When an ancient people saw another ancient people, they saw a group that was different in multiple ways - race, nation, language, diet, political organization, administrative procedure, military form and style, art and architecture; religious, philosophical, teleological perspective.   If that is the case, then it is the overall supraethnic culture that ancient peoples would identify as significant, rather than race or language or religion alone.So, I agree that it is their achievements that deserve our respect.  Yet all factors, including race and ethnicity do deserve our attention.  Each is part and parcel of the whole. > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:26:31 -0700> From: Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Subject: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past> > I always find it puzzling why people get so worked up about racial and> ethnic origins and affiliations in the past. Is this what is most> important about past peoples? My perspective has always been that it is> the achievements of ancient peoples-their actions and the consequences> of their actions-that deserves our attention and respect. _________________________________________________________________Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009--Forwarded Message Attachment--From: deamayaspin at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the pastDate: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:32:47 -0800To: aztlan at lists.famsi.orgMichael Smith  The problem with ignoring language components is that without the comparisons, huge gaps occur in knowledge. Not knowing that one glyph here  might be translated as something else some where else, i.e. Soda is a word we all recognize, but 'pop' is one found in the morth, 'coke' is used by another group of US citizens. . . . put all use the same iconography for the concept of a aereated fruity or 'rooty' drink. The various language bases tell a lot about their learning ability or where they may have learned how to construct a building or a road. Without a broad base with which to work, there is no connection between polities, so the Inca had nothing to do with the Maya, or the Aztecs or North Americas, or probably Brazilians at the mouth of the Amazon. Their icons are different, their building blocks are different, but was there ever a connection that could be traced by the language. I believe there are those connections, and by ignoring them, big gaps exist in our knowledge of a culture, any culture. Dea D. M. Urquidi  P. O. Box 49485  Austin, Texas 78765  http://www.mayalords.org    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/  --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Michael Smith <Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu>             --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: rykash at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the pastDate: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 03:30:02 +0000To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org Professor Smith, I do believe that you have addressed the issue at its core:  "Perhaps it is our modern obsession with race and ethnicity and identity in the modernworld that makes us obsessed with research about these issues in the ancient past." Presuming that we have objective knowledge--of "race" or language--ignores the subjectivities of our perspectives.   And constructions of race and ethnicity should always be historically delimited.    Cordially, Ryan  R.A. KashanipourDepartment of History The University of Arizona  > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:32:47 -0800> From: deamayaspin at yahoo.com> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] race and ethnicity in the past> > Michael Smith > > The problem with ignoring language components is that without the comparisons, huge gaps occur in knowledge. Not knowing that one glyph here  might be translated as something else some where else, i.e. Soda is a word we all recognize, but 'pop' is one found in the morth, 'coke' is used by another group of US citizens. . . . put all use the same iconography for the concept of a aereated fruity or 'rooty' drink.> > The various language bases tell a lot about their learning ability or where they may have learned how to construct a building or a road. Without a broad base with which to work, there is no connection between polities, so the Inca had nothing to do with the Maya, or the Aztecs or North Americas, or probably Brazilians at the mouth of the Amazon. Their icons are different, their building blocks are different, but was there ever a connection that could be traced by the language.> > I believe there are those connections, and by ignoring them, big gaps exist in our knowledge of a culture, any culture.> > Dea> > D. M. Urquidi  P. O. Box 49485  Austin, Texas 78765  http://www.mayalords.org    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientamericas/> > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Michael Smith <Michael.E.Smith.2 at asu.edu>  > > > >       > > _______________________________________________> Aztlan mailing list> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org> Click to view Calendar of Events http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php> >  _________________________________________________________________Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009
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