[Aztlan] 2012 show featuring someone you know

Hubert Smith husmith at clearwire.net
Tue Jul 7 14:09:30 CDT 2009 

Of course, one must take in to account Sullivan's and Burns' works.

Contemporary prophecy exists.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Pérez de Lara" <jorgepl at estudioelias.com>
To: "John Major Jenkins" <kahib at ix.netcom.com>
Cc: <tokovin at fas.harvard.edu>; <sharonzeugin at yahoo.com>; 
<Aztlan at lists.famsi.org>; <lorengar at idecnet.com>; 
<brenda.berman at talk21.com>; <christine.c.brouwer at abc.com>; 
<eliza at letterist.com>; <Lizdell at cox.net>; <nancyculmone at plateautel.net>; 
<susaneking at earthlink.net>; <fiorenza at centrofiorenza.com>; 
<tobias at scripps.edu>; <Cliveden at cliveden.com>; <taj1 at suddenlink.net>; 
<rdavison6 at cox.net>; "Vallo Riberto" <vriberto at swccd.edu>; 
<wukyabnal at hotmail.com>; <topherwesttoo at aol.com>; 
<sbourget at mail.utexas.edu>; <gerezenwit at planet.nl>; <fr04 at txstate.edu>; 
<kathimccord at cox.net>; <jaimeawe at yahoo.com>; <davidstuart at mail.utexas.edu>; 
<babblonia at aol.com>; <P.Mathews at latrobe.edu.au>; <achase at mail.ucf.edu>; 
<nirmala7 at yahoo.com>; <justeson at gmail.com>; <c.ridler at thameshudson.co.uk>; 
<lizrodriguez at hotmail.com>; <pwutzib at yahoo.com>; <CheyenneS at aol.com>; 
"Patricia Flores-Charter" <pflores at swccd.edu>; <saturno at bu.edu>; 
<alphaannie at worldnet.att.net>; <stuart84 at tds.net>; <jblocher at mac.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] 2012 show featuring someone you know


> John, Mark and friends,
>
> Inasmuch as "apocalypse" is a Judeo-Christian (Muslim?) notion, I
> agree that it has no place in Classic Maya contexts. I suspect,
> however, that "apocalypse" (less the capitalized "A") is being used
> here as a generic reference to a cataclysmic event.
>
> In this regard, I am not aware of any evidence that the Maya thought
> that the coming 13.0.0.0.0 would bring forth any such cataclysmic
> event. (Or "an age change", for that matter.)
>
> I don't think either the Maya considered that particular period ending
> merely as the resetting of an odometer. I think there is ample
> evidence that period endings were important to them and that they had
> a number of ceremonies and rites to celebrate/mark them. I think it is
> reasonable that a baktun ending would probably be even more meaningful
> to them than a k'atun ending, if for no other reason than its relative
> rarity.
>
> Do I think there is evidence that they thought that 13.0.0.0.0 was
> more meaningful than other such rare baktun endings (i.e., 10.0.0.0.0,
> 11.0.0.0.0 or 12.0.0.0.0)? No, I don't and I am not saying that they
> didn't, just that no evidence has been found to assert such a thing.
>
> Easy or not, I think you should welcome your "hero" role, Mark, as a
> chance to dispell some of the fallacies regarding Maya culture that
> the mass media love to foster among the general public.
>
> My two cents.
>
> Jorge
>
>
> On Jul 7, 2009, at 9:06 AM, John Major Jenkins wrote:
>
>> Hi Mark,
>> Congratulations on your prime-time appearance! Personally, I avoided
>> Penn & Teller like the plague, but since you were selected for the
>> "hero" role, your job is easy. All you have to say is "the Maya
>> never predicted apocalypse in 2012." It's kind of ironic that I've
>> been saying the same thing for some twenty years. It's true: the
>> conflation of apocalypse with 2012 is a humongous piece of
>> disinformation foisted upon the public by a stupidity-reinforcing
>> mass media and an exploitative marketplace. However, a second layer
>> of disinformation exists in this discusion, one that Penn and Teller
>> don't care at all about, one  that most Maya scholars have proven
>> unwilling or unable to address. This is the unwarranted subsequent
>> assumption that "the ancient Maya had no concept at all about 2012."
>> As Penn & Teller would say: "bullshit!" This viewpoint assumes that
>> we, as modern thinkers, cannot possibly reconstruct or encounter any
>> evidence in the inscriptions or other Maya traditions th!
>> at tells us anything about how the ancient Maya would have thought
>> about 2012. This identifies the unenviable place that I have held in
>> this discussion (for longer than there was even a discussion!), as
>> "a researcher who has found evidence that the Maya referenced 2012
>> (a.k.a., the end of the current 13-baktun cycle) in ways that were
>> meaningful to them."   I sincerely hope they don't make you seem
>> like a fool; luckily for you this is unlikely as you have been
>> selected to say the obvious and to correct the silliest and most
>> simplistic misconception that exists in the 2012 discussion. I've
>> been handing the same thing to the media repeatedly for years:
>> apocalypse is a concept from a linear time philosophy, and the
>> modern mind tries to jam it into a cyclic time philosophy (2012) ---
>> a place it doesn't belong. "Apocalypse in 2012"  is a projection of
>> our own culture's greatest fear onto the Maya's 2012 date, a
>> projection of a cataclysmic scenario onto a tradition that saw cycl!
>> e endings as times of transformation and renewal.  Of course, this way
>> of phrasing it probably strikes a little too close to home for the
>> media - it also uses too many polysyllabic words for the expected
>> low-grade demographic of their viewers or readers.
>>
>> So, I guess my question to you, Mark, is, do you currently believe
>> that 2012 had absolutely no meaning to the ancient Maya, to the
>> creators of the Long Count, and to the Classic Period Maya, such as
>> those who inscribed Tortuguero Monument 6?  My own view is that, at
>> the very least, the Maya would have thought about 2012, as they
>> thought about all cycle endings, big or small, as a time of
>> transformation and renewal that required sacrifices. In fact, a
>> modern ethnic Maya scholar, Victor Montejo, thinks of it in this
>> way. There are scholars who do suggest ways to think about 2012.
>> David Freidel, for example, encourages the public to think of 2012
>> as a vehicle's odometer resetting.  Perhaps we can have a vote from
>> the numerous people on this e-list: shall we subscribe to the Maya
>> concept of  transformation and renewal in 2012, or should we think
>> of it with the modern mechanical metaphor of a gas guzzler's gear-
>> clock resetting? I invite everyone to please return your responses, A!
>>  or B, directly to me. Maybe we can improve the integrity and
>> cogency of this discussion and move it forward a little:
>>
>> A: The ancient Maya thought of 2012 as a vehicle's odometer
>> resetting to zero.
>>
>> B: The ancient Maya thought of 2012 as a time of transformation and
>> renewal requiring sacrifices.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> John Major Jenkins
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mark Van Stone <mvanstone at swccd.edu>
>>>> Sent: Jul 7, 2009 1:45 AM
>>>> To: "quillproquo at yahoo.com" <quillproquo at yahoo.com>, Jeff Redford 
>>>> <jredford at adelphia.net
>>>> >, "jsiskind at ceo.lacounty.gov" <jsiskind at ceo.lacounty.gov>, me 
>>>> ><cjohnson at ceo.lacounty.gov
>>>> >, "ajchich at gmail.com" <ajchich at gmail.com>, "ahmiyatz at gmail.com" 
>>>> ><ahmiyatz at gmail.com
>>>> >, "bmacleod at austin.rr.com" <bmacleod at austin.rr.com>, 
>>>> >"bfash at fas.harvard.edu
>>>> " <bfash at fas.harvard.edu>, "castillo_jackie at yahoo.com" 
>>>> <castillo_jackie at yahoo.com
>>>> >, "coinsold at aol.com" <coinsold at aol.com>,
>>>> "daisylopez500 at hotmail.com" <daisylopez500 at hotmail.com>, Donna
>>>> Arnold <darnold at swccd.edu>, "Dsmevs at aol.com" <Dsmevs at aol.com>, 
>>>> "ed at mayaexploration.com
>>>> " <ed at mayaexploration.com>, "effie.malley at gmail.com" 
>>>> <effie.malley at gmail.com
>>>> >, "enewsome at ucsd.edu" <enewsome at ucsd.edu>,
>>>> "GrofeM at arc.losrios.edu" <GrofeM at arc.losrios.edu>, "gscroggs at gmail.com
>>>> " <gscroggs at gmail.com>, "gvaldana at yahoo.com" <gvaldana at yahoo.com>,
>>>> "hhavis at comcast.net" <hhavis at comcast.net>, "hiharin at earthlink.net"
>>>> <hiharin at earthlink.net>, "hoopes at ku.edu" <hoopes at ku.ed!
>> u>, "jamesvanstone at yahoo.com" <jamesvanstone at yahoo.com>, 
>> "jill at jillbell.com
>> " <jill at jillbell.com>, "joel at ojo.com" <joel at ojo.com>, "karl.taube at ucr.edu
>> " <karl.taube at ucr.edu>, "lebrun at ix.netcom.com"
>> <lebrun at ix.netcom.com>, "loudspeaker7 at aol.com"
>> <loudspeaker7 at aol.com>, "maguila2 at calstatela.edu" 
>> <maguila2 at calstatela.edu
>> >, "MAguila2 at exchange.calstatela.edu" <MAguila2 at exchange.calstatela.edu
>> >, Marcia Morrison <mmorrison101 at hotmail.com>, "'OlmecC at aol.com'" 
>> ><OlmecC at aol.com
>> >, "olsenvanstone at gmail.com" <olsenvanstone at gmail.com>, 
>> >"P.Mathews at latrobe.edu.au
>> " <P.Mathews at latrobe.edu.au>, "pancona at lacma.org"
>> <pancona at lacma.org>, "patrickbechdolt at yahoo.com" 
>> <patrickbechdolt at yahoo.com
>> >, "phoog at museumofman.org" <phoog at museumofman.org>, "p-john at att.net"
>> <p-john at att.net>, "Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu" 
>> <Samuel.Y.Edgerton at williams.edu
>> >, "sandra.e.noble at gmail.com" <sandra.e.noble at gmail.com>, 
>> >"SCross at cbmgmt.com
>> " <SCross at cbmgmt.com>, "sjvanstone at yahoo.com"
>> <sjvanstone at yahoo.com>, "smielke at famsi.or!
>> g" <smielke at famsi.org>, "tdrobner at yahoo.com" <tdrobner at yahoo.com>, "th
>> omas.leech at state.nm.us" <thomas.leech at state.nm.us>, 
>> "tomatofrench at yahoo.com
>> " <tomatofrench at yahoo.com>, "tompirazz at hotmail.com" 
>> <tompirazz at hotmail.com
>> >, Valerie Goodwin <vgoodwin at swccd.edu>, "vanrock70 at verizon.net" 
>> ><vanrock70 at verizon.net
>> >, "veemosqueda at yahoo.com" <veemosqueda at yahoo.com>,
>> "vfields at lacma.org" <vfields at lacma.org>, "waldrf at earthlink.net" 
>> <waldrf at earthlink.net
>> >, "wfash at fas.harvard.edu" <wfash at fas.harvard.edu>, "cattinsd at yahoo.com
>> " <cattinsd at yahoo.com>, "bjfrey at excite.com" <bjfrey at excite.com>, 
>> "Stephen_Houston at brown.edu
>> " <Stephen_Houston at brown.edu>, "river at maine.rr.com" <river at maine.rr.com
>> >, "marczender at comcast.net" <marczender at comcast.net>,
>> "meberl at gmx.net" <meberl at gmx.net>, "chelmke at hotmail.com" 
>> <chelmke at hotmail.com
>> >, "harri.kettunen at phnet.fi" <harri.kettunen at phnet.fi>, 
>> >"mdcarrasco at fuse.net
>> " <mdcarrasco at fuse.net>, "rrbarrois at yahoo.fr" <rrbarrois at yahoo.fr>, 
>> "maguila2 at calstatela.edu
>> " <maguila2 at calstatela.edu>, "aaveni at mail.colgate.edu" 
>> <aaveni at mail.colgate.edu
>> >, "A!
>> nnabeth.headrick at vanderbilt.edu" <Annabeth.headrick at vanderbilt.edu>,
>> "karl.taube at ucr.edu" <karl.taube at ucr.edu>, "mayavase at verizon.net" 
>> <mayavase at verizon.net
>> >, "donaldhales2000 at yahoo.com" <donaldhales2000 at yahoo.com>, 
>> >"SimonMartin3 at compuserve.com
>> " <SimonMartin3 at compuserve.com>, "juliaguernsey at mail.utexas.edu" 
>> <juliaguernsey at mail.utexas.edu
>> >, "sguenter at smu.edu" <sguenter at smu.edu>, "spguenter at yahoo.ca" 
>> ><spguenter at yahoo.ca
>> >, "amorales at catherwoodtravels.com"
>> <amorales at catherwoodtravels.com>, "mpohl at mailer.fsu.edu" 
>> <mpohl at mailer.fsu.edu
>> >, "kberrin at famsf.org" <kberrin at famsf.org>, "mlbrath at nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu
>> " <mlbrath at nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>, "dtedlock at buffalo.edu" 
>> <dtedlock at buffalo.edu
>> >, "MLooper at csuchico.edu" <MLooper at csuchico.edu>, "jblocher at mac.com"
>> <jblocher at mac.com>, "justeson at gmail.com" <justeson at gmail.com>, 
>> "wukyabnal at hotmail.com
>> " <wukyabnal at hotmail.com>, "christine.c.brouwer at abc.com" 
>> <christine.c.brouwer at abc.com
>> >, "kathimccord at cox.net" <kathimccord at cox.net>, "nancyculmone at pla!
>> teautel.net" <nancyculmone at plateautel.net>, "tobias at scripps.edu" <tobi
>> as at scripps.edu>, "fr04 at txstate.edu" <fr04 at txstate.edu>, 
>> "sbourget at mail.utexas.edu
>> " <sbourget at mail.utexas.edu>, "bstross at mail.utexas.edu" 
>> <bstross at mail.utexas.edu
>> >, "fiorenza at centrofiorenza.com" <fiorenza at centrofiorenza.com>,
>> Patricia Flores-Charter <pflores at swccd.edu>, Vallo Riberto 
>> <vriberto at swccd.edu
>> >, "susaneking at earthlink.net" <susaneking at earthlink.net>, 
>> >"rdavison6 at cox.net
>> " <rdavison6 at cox.net>, "tokovin at fas.harvard.edu" <tokovin at fas.harvard.edu
>> >, "lorengar at idecnet.com" <lorengar at idecnet.com>,
>> "achase at mail.ucf.edu" <achase at mail.ucf.edu>, "jaimeawe at yahoo.com" 
>> <jaimeawe at yahoo.com
>> >, "taj1 at suddenlink.net" <taj1 at suddenlink.net>, "CheyenneS at aol.com" 
>> ><CheyenneS at aol.com
>> >, "russblock at cox.net" <russblock at cox.net>, "topherwesttoo at aol.com" 
>> ><topherwesttoo at aol.com
>> >, "saturno at bu.edu" <saturno at bu.edu>, "nirmala7 at yahoo.com" 
>> ><nirmala7 at yahoo.com
>> >, "Lizdell at cox.net" <Lizdell at cox.net>,
>> "c.ridler at thameshudson.co.uk" <c.ridler at thameshudson.co.uk>, 
>> "gerezenwit at planet.nl
>> " <gerezenwit at planet.nl>, !
>> "lizrodriguez at hotmail.com" <lizrodriguez at hotmail.com>, 
>> "susaneking at earthlink.net
>> " <susaneking at earthlink.net>, "babblonia at aol.com"
>> <babblonia at aol.com>, "stuart84 at tds.net" <stuart84 at tds.net>, 
>> "davidstuart at mail.utexas.edu
>> " <davidstuart at mail.utexas.edu>, "Aztlan at lists.famsi.org" 
>> <Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>> >
>>>> Cc: "Cliveden at cliveden.com" <Cliveden at cliveden.com>, 
>>>> "brenda.berman at talk21.com
>>>> " <brenda.berman at talk21.com>, "alphaannie at worldnet.att.net" 
>>>> <alphaannie at worldnet.att.net
>>>> >, "pwutzib at yahoo.com" <pwutzib at yahoo.com>, "eliza at letterist.com" 
>>>> ><eliza at letterist.com
>>>> >, "sharonzeugin at yahoo.com" <sharonzeugin at yahoo.com>, 
>>>> >"P.Mathews at latrobe.edu.au
>>>> " <P.Mathews at latrobe.edu.au>, "Leon at reinhartfoundation.com" 
>>>> <Leon at reinhartfoundation.com
>>>> >, William Alexander <walexander at swccd.edu>, Marisol Rendon 
>>>> ><mrendon at swccd.edu
>>>> >, "ecoling at aol.com" <ecoling at aol.com>, Linda Hensley 
>>>> ><lhensley at swccd.edu
>>>> >, "louiseiremedio at yahoo.com" <louiseiremedio at yahoo.com>, 
>>>> >"sbean718 at SBCGlobal.net
>>>> " <sbean718 at sbcglobal.net>, "Janet.A.N at sbcglobal.net" 
>>>> <Janet.A.N at sbcglobal.net
>>>> >, "brucelove9 at gmail.com" <brucelove9 at gmail.com>, "Elizabeth Sisco
>>>> (Arts & Comm)" <esisco at swccd.edu>, "chichenahau at earthlink.net" 
>>>> <chichenahau at earthlink.net
>>>> >, Mark Sisson <msisson at swccd.edu>, "crmcp at infostations.com" 
>>>> ><crmcp at infostations.com
>>>> >, "bsprague2 at cox.!
>> net" <bsprague2 at cox.net>, "radiocafe at ksfr.org" <radiocafe at ksfr.org>,
>> "sbastet at yahoo.com" <sbastet at yahoo.com>, "john_clark at byu.edu" 
>> <john_clark at byu.edu
>> >, "rwieck at themorgan.org" <rwieck at themorgan.org>, 
>> >"info at ateliergargoyle.com
>> " <info at ateliergargoyle.com>, "ed at mayaexploration.com" 
>> <ed at mayaexploration.com
>> >, "rsitler at stetson.edu" <rsitler at stetson.edu>, "lkattwin at lmi.net" 
>> ><lkattwin at lmi.net
>> >, "scarletandmaeve at yahoo.com" <scarletandmaeve at yahoo.com>, 
>> >"mat.saunders at gmail.com
>> " <mat.saunders at gmail.com>, "roseyguthrie at earthlink.net" 
>> <roseyguthrie at earthlink.net
>> >, "filionj at aecl.ca" <filionj at aecl.ca>, "pointedpen at cox.net" 
>> ><pointedpen at cox.net
>> >, Michael Schnorr <mschnorr at swccd.edu>, "engtudor at discover.net" 
>> ><engtudor at discover.net
>> >, "carol.pallesen at gmail.com" <carol.pallesen at gmail.com>, 
>> >"bdevine at millcomm.com
>> " <bdevine at millcomm.com>, Perry Vasquez <pvasquez at swccd.edu>, Max
>> Branscomb <mbranscomb at swccd.edu>, "gaylaphd at netscape.net" 
>> <gaylaphd at netscape.net
>> >, Matt Micajah Truitt <mtruitt at swccd.edu>!
>> , "marion.de.koning at gcccd.edu" <marion.de.koning at gcccd.edu>, Eileen Zw
>> ierski <ezwierski at swccd.edu>, "marjorie.foote at unh.edu" 
>> <marjorie.foote at unh.edu
>> >, Sheila Moran <smoran at swccd.edu>, "sherrie at inkmonkey.com" 
>> ><sherrie at inkmonkey.com
>> >, "Hiltnjones at yahoo.com" <Hiltnjones at yahoo.com>,
>> "consiegal at aol.com" <consiegal at aol.com>, Angel Adame <angeladame at cox.net
>> >, "pari-merle at mindspring.com" <pari-merle at mindspring.com>
>>>> Subject: [Aztlan] 2012 show featuring someone you know
>>>>
>>>> Dear Friends, (And I had forgotten how rich I am in friends, till
>>>> I started making that list of "Oh *they'll* want to know" people
>>>> above...),
>>>>
>>>>   Well, the Penn & Teller 2012 episode on Showtime cable network
>>>> will air, they say, on 16 July.  I am supposed to be at the end,
>>>> explaining patiently that the Maya never predicted an apocalypse
>>>> at all... etc., etc.  They call that role "the hero," but I expect
>>>> as always happens when media people try to explain complex (or
>>>> even simple) intellectual ideas to the masses, they'll find a way
>>>> to embarrass me.  (Thanks, Sandy for siccing them on me!)  Now, I
>>>> know nearly NOBODY out there subscribes to Showtime, but maybe you
>>>> know someone who does... Anyway, they promised me a DVD when it
>>>> airs...
>>>>
>>>> Penn & Teller: Bullshit!: The Apocalypse
>>>>
>>>> Description:
>>>> In episode 704, Penn and Teller follow investigators to Mexico
>>>> where they probe the mysterious, doomsday "Mayan Prophecy" that
>>>> the world will end on exactly December 21, 2012.
>>>>
>>>> Rating: TVMA
>>>> Duration: 28 Mins
>>>> Showtime Advisories: Nudity, Graphic Language, Adult Content
>>>> Audio Format: Stereo / CC / ESP
>>>>
>>>> Ways to Watch:
>>>> On Showtime
>>>>   07/16/09 at 10:00 PM (More Airings: click here)
>>>> On Demand    Available from 07/17/09 to 10/06/09
>>>>
>>>> ( The above announcement downloaded from the Showtime website 
>>>> http://sho.com
>>>>  )
>>>>
>>>> Sorry about the "global" email... Hope this finds you ALL thriving.
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
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