[Aztlan] Postclassic, empires, labels, and such

[J. L. Baker]

Jerry

I would agree that your more indepth definition is a more accurate portrayal of the distinctions between them. However, in all of the instances in which I am aware of, the replacement of a local ruler with one from the imperial capital was associated with other changes in the local bureaucracies. Again, the cases where local rulers where left intact, as far as I know, the local bureaucracies also were left intact. And, in talking about replacing a local ruler with a governor from the empire, I am not including situations where a rebellious ruler was executed and his successor was installed on the throne (which the Aztecs did on several occasions). And, if anyone has information contradicting my knowledge, I would be interested in learning of the example.

Nevertheless, regardless of which definition is used (my simple one, or your more complete definition), both the Romans and the Chinese ruled conquered territories both hegemonically and territorially. I am not trying to suggest that this situation existed for the Roman empire for the entire period between 200 BC and AD 200 or that China always had both hegemonic and territorial conquests (I simply don't have enough knowledge about the histories of either area to state that), but that the two types of empires should not be viewed as an either/or case, but as two alternative management choices that a single empire could take. But, many Mesoamerican archaeologists have assumed that it is an either/or case. 


Jeff

--- On Wed, 7/15/09, Jerry Ek <jerryek at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: Jerry Ek <jerryek at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Postclassic, empires, labels, and such
> To: "Aztlan Aztlan" <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 7:27 PM
> 
> Hey Jeff,
> 
> I think that your definition of hegemonic versus
> territorial empires is a little off the mark.
> 
> You mention that the difference between the two is based on
> replacement of rules in conquered provinces.  However,
> that is just one example of the broader and more important
> distinction between the two types of states, and that is in
> the degree of direct administration that the Imperial
> capital exerts on incorporated areas.  Replacing local
> rulers is just a detail, really.  In Territorial
> Empires, the whole administration system is changed and rule
> is highly centralized.  These states incorporate areas
> into an Empire.  Hegemonic Empires mainly just extract
> tribute.  Territorial states may be more likely to
> replace local rulers than a hegemonic empire would, but that
> isn’t – and shouldn’t be – the defining attribute.
> 
> To use New World examples, the Inca and Aztec polities
> illustrate this distinction very well, with the former
> representing a territorial empire and the latter a hegemonic
> empire.  As you mention with Rome and China, the Aztecs
> sometimes replaced rulers, but usually left local people in
> power.  However, the results of imperial incorporation
> in the provinces and the degree of centralized rule between
> these two examples are very different.
> 
> I don't think these are stereotypes or inadequate concepts
> at all.  As Mike pointed out, all cases differ and
> using generalized conceptual models like these result in
> some loss of detail.  But this is necessary if we want
> to compare different societies.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jerry Ek
> 
> 
> 
> > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:35:37 -0700
> > From: sierradeagua at yahoo.com
> > To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Postclassic, empires, labels,
> and such
> >
> >
> > One of the problems with many attempts to apply the
> concept of the empire to the Mesoamerican world is authors
> reliance upon stereotypes of what the Roman and/or Chinese
> empires were like, stereotypes that may not really fit the
> reality.
> >
> > The biggest example of this I can think of is the
> statements that Old World empires are territorial and New
> World empires are hegemonic. This is simply not true (the
> distinction between these two empire types is usually based
> upon the nature of the local rulers. In a territorial
> empire, the native rulers are replaced by the empire's
> people. In a hegemonic empire, the native rulers are left in
> place.
> >
> > In the case of both Rome and China, both strategies
> were utilized. The distinction between having a local ruler
> or a governor from the empire is based in general upon both
> the distance between the capitol of the empire and the
> conquered territory and the length that the area was
> conquered. In addition, if it was necessary to reconquer
> (because of a rebellion) a territory ruled by a local ruler,
> then the local ruler would often by replaced by an agent of
> the empire.
> >
> > I think much of the problem we have had with the use
> of the term "empire" is that people often use stereotypes
> that may never have existed in the real world. Clearly
> defining what an empire is by an author (as Michael Smith
> advocates) would help to clear up some of this
> misunderstanding.
> >
> >
> > Jeff Baker
> >
> >
> > > I disagree strongly with authors who disparage
> the
> > > application of
> > > concepts like empire to the archaeological
> record. If we
> > > fail to use
> > > analytical concepts like this, we will not be
> able to
> > > understand the
> > > societies of ancient Mesoamerica. O
> >
> >
> >
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