[Aztlan] 4-Petal Flower I.D. in Teotihuacan??

Tue Jun 16 19:41:12 CDT 2009

Kim,

Of course the flower would have actual natural qualities that would  
attract the Teotihuacanos. And I was also thinking that, since it only  
comes out at night, that they may have seen more analogies here in  
that it could have represented the bursting forth of the Fifth Sun in  
the night time of the void between the 4th and 5th worlds since it had  
4 petals. Having medicinal qualities would give it an added dimension.  
This is a great find for you Kim.

Mike

On Jun 16, 2009, at 4:37 PM, kim Goldsmith wrote:

>
> Hi Mike!
>
> Of course I'm on board with you all the way on most of that - - just  
> like the quincunce.  However, THAT is potentially perhaps the  
> principle, but not the only reason that a four-petaled flower would  
> be singled out......if it had great medicinal properties, it would  
> make it additionally sacred.
>
> So my main point is that although there were other things (like the  
> quincunce) that have the cardinal points and sacred center, their  
> design is comprehensive but somewhat abstract.  I believe that the 4- 
> petal flower image is based on a true flower that actually exists,  
> and this Primrose thing is the only one I've ever seen around here.   
> I would imagine that it was additionally awe-inspiring to the  
> Prehispanic folks (as it was to me), that this beautiful flower can  
> only be seen at night, which goes against the grain of most "normal"  
> plants and therefore makes it special.  And of course since there  
> was a lot of astronomic observation, at the very least the  
> skywatchers could have seen these flowers while everyone else  
> (except perhaps sentries) were snug on their petates.
>
> I found some pictures of ceramic molds on FAMSI (submitted by Saburo  
> Sugiyama, based on the work of Luís Carlos Múnera Bermúdez  
> [deceased]).  Some of the 4PFs even show the stamin (sp?) off to the  
> side over one of the petals, just like this Primrose. Whatever the  
> reasons they may have chosen this particular flower, unless someone  
> has come up with something else, I think we may have a match here.
>
> I might add that while it is true that there are four shallow  
> chambers in the Prehispanic tunnel under the Pyramid of the Sun  
> here, I believe that they DO represent the cardinal points but think  
> it is stretching it to equate it with the 4PF.  Just my opinion, but  
> we've all seen the topo maps of the chambers.  The 4 can't be  
> directly accross from each other due to the "tunnel" that leads into  
> the area, so that causes it to be off from a true cruciform pattern.
>
> Anyway, just wanted to see what folks think.  I guess I either need  
> to get out more or keep a better eye on my cats and just not go out  
> at all!  Ha Ha!
>
> KIM
>
> --- On Tue, 6/16/09, michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] 4-Petal Flower I.D. in Teotihuacan??
>> To: "kim Goldsmith" <kiminmexico at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
>> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 2:13 PM
>> Kim,
>>
>> I see the 4 petaled flower as the 4 corners of the universe
>> with the world tree in the center symbolism that is so
>> prevalent in all of the Americas expressed in slightly
>> different ways in each ancient culture in the Americas. If
>> it is true that the Teotihuacanos believed their location is
>> where the fifth sun was created and the universe began anew
>> there with Teotihuacan serving as a kind of Garden of Eden,
>> using the four petaled flower as the symbol of the four
>> corners of the universe with the world tree in the center is
>> apt for the Teo ideology. The whole city was laid out in the
>> same fashion with a north/south and east/west axis. And
>> remember the tomb underneath the Pyramid of the Sun was
>> shaped into a 4 leaf design.
>>
>> Mike Ruggeri
>>
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2009, at 3:53 PM, kim Goldsmith wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi All!
>>>
>>> I have always wondered about the botanical i.d. of the
>> 4-petal flower so widely represented here in
>> Teotihuacan.  I am basicially limited to what I can
>> find on the Net, and I have searched but have not found
>> anything written up on it here.
>>>
>>> Even though during my 27 years here at the site I have
>> kept a keen eye out through all seasons for any flower that
>> would fit the bill, I never saw one.  However, the
>> other night at about 3:00 a.m. I was out in our yard (we
>> live in the Director's house on-Site), and noticed a very
>> small bush of flowers in full bloom!!  In the daytime
>> the plant is in plain sight yet barely noticeable, so I kept
>> going outside for a few evenings/nights and confirmed that
>> indeed, that is the only time the flowers open.
>>>
>>> I took pictures myself, but there is a good one here
>> (it's the white one):
>>>
>>> http://www.uni.edu/~andersow/fourpetals.html
>>>
>>> The flower is:
>>>
>>> Cutleaf Evening-Primrose
>>>
>>> Oenothera coronopifolia
>>>
>>> Onagraceae
>>>
>>>
>>> It has only four petals, and is very similar to the
>> ones we see in the art here.  Of course, to be so
>> important iconographically, it would have to have something
>> special about it.  On this site(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oenothera 
>> ), among other
>> things, it talks about its medicinal properties as
>> "...considered to be effective in healing asthmatic coughs,
>> gastro-intestinal disorders, whooping cough and as a
>> sedative pain-killer. Poultices containing O. biennis were
>> at one time used to ease bruises and speed wound
>> healing."  It also states that this plant is believed
>> to be a native of Mexico and South America.
>>>
>>> Although anything that heals is good, it seems that
>> for as long as man can remember, anything that sedates,
>> relieves pain, or causes a general "feel good" state is even
>> better.  Apparently this particular plant can produce
>> that effect.
>>>
>>> Do any of you know of any work out there already done
>> on this topic?  I'm sure there must be SOMETHING, but I
>> certainly don't have access to it here.  And, if it
>> turns out there isn't anything, would anyone be interested
>> in exploring it further with me?  I'm just blown away
>> by the fact that I was too dense in the plant department to
>> know that anything but night-blooming jasmine opened up when
>> the sun went down!
>>>
>>> Thanks for indulging me, and please remember that I
>> will be around Teo. during the ICA next month.  My cel
>> no. is 552-717-9845.  Give me a jingle if anyone can
>> make it out for a visit!
>>>
>>> Best to all of you,
>>>
>>> KIM
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>
>
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