[Aztlan] 4-Petal Flower I.D. in Teotihuacan??

Tue Jun 16 20:23:50 CDT 2009

Thank You, Mike!

I really can't believe that somebody hasn't previously thought this out and discovered, if not this flower, then something like it.  I truly think that there MUST already be something out there written on this - - perhaps in Spanish?

I would ask of all Listeros willing to help me out a little to just ask around with the other folks they know.  If there definitely has not been anything at least similar written about it before, I will persue it.

Thanks to everyone in advance for all your help and comments,

KIM

--- On Tue, 6/16/09, michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com> wrote:

> From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] 4-Petal Flower I.D. in Teotihuacan??
> To: "kim Goldsmith" <kiminmexico at yahoo.com>
> Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 5:41 PM
> Kim,
> 
> Of course the flower would have actual natural qualities
> that would attract the Teotihuacanos. And I was also
> thinking that, since it only comes out at night, that they
> may have seen more analogies here in that it could have
> represented the bursting forth of the Fifth Sun in the night
> time of the void between the 4th and 5th worlds since it had
> 4 petals. Having medicinal qualities would give it an added
> dimension. This is a great find for you Kim.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> On Jun 16, 2009, at 4:37 PM, kim Goldsmith wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Hi Mike!
> > 
> > Of course I'm on board with you all the way on most of
> that - - just like the quincunce.  However, THAT is
> potentially perhaps the principle, but not the only reason
> that a four-petaled flower would be singled out......if it
> had great medicinal properties, it would make it
> additionally sacred.
> > 
> > So my main point is that although there were other
> things (like the quincunce) that have the cardinal points
> and sacred center, their design is comprehensive but
> somewhat abstract.  I believe that the 4-petal flower
> image is based on a true flower that actually exists, and
> this Primrose thing is the only one I've ever seen around
> here.  I would imagine that it was additionally
> awe-inspiring to the Prehispanic folks (as it was to me),
> that this beautiful flower can only be seen at night, which
> goes against the grain of most "normal" plants and therefore
> makes it special.  And of course since there was a lot
> of astronomic observation, at the very least the skywatchers
> could have seen these flowers while everyone else (except
> perhaps sentries) were snug on their petates.
> > 
> > I found some pictures of ceramic molds on FAMSI
> (submitted by Saburo Sugiyama, based on the work of Luís
> Carlos Múnera Bermúdez [deceased]).  Some of the 4PFs
> even show the stamin (sp?) off to the side over one of the
> petals, just like this Primrose. Whatever the reasons they
> may have chosen this particular flower, unless someone has
> come up with something else, I think we may have a match
> here.
> > 
> > I might add that while it is true that there are four
> shallow chambers in the Prehispanic tunnel under the Pyramid
> of the Sun here, I believe that they DO represent the
> cardinal points but think it is stretching it to equate it
> with the 4PF.  Just my opinion, but we've all seen the
> topo maps of the chambers.  The 4 can't be directly
> accross from each other due to the "tunnel" that leads into
> the area, so that causes it to be off from a true cruciform
> pattern.
> > 
> > Anyway, just wanted to see what folks think.  I
> guess I either need to get out more or keep a better eye on
> my cats and just not go out at all!  Ha Ha!
> > 
> > KIM
> > 
> > --- On Tue, 6/16/09, michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
> wrote:
> > 
> >> From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] 4-Petal Flower I.D. in
> Teotihuacan??
> >> To: "kim Goldsmith" <kiminmexico at yahoo.com>
> >> Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> >> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 2:13 PM
> >> Kim,
> >> 
> >> I see the 4 petaled flower as the 4 corners of the
> universe
> >> with the world tree in the center symbolism that
> is so
> >> prevalent in all of the Americas expressed in
> slightly
> >> different ways in each ancient culture in the
> Americas. If
> >> it is true that the Teotihuacanos believed their
> location is
> >> where the fifth sun was created and the universe
> began anew
> >> there with Teotihuacan serving as a kind of Garden
> of Eden,
> >> using the four petaled flower as the symbol of the
> four
> >> corners of the universe with the world tree in the
> center is
> >> apt for the Teo ideology. The whole city was laid
> out in the
> >> same fashion with a north/south and east/west
> axis. And
> >> remember the tomb underneath the Pyramid of the
> Sun was
> >> shaped into a 4 leaf design.
> >> 
> >> Mike Ruggeri
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Jun 16, 2009, at 3:53 PM, kim Goldsmith wrote:
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> Hi All!
> >>> 
> >>> I have always wondered about the botanical
> i.d. of the
> >> 4-petal flower so widely represented here in
> >> Teotihuacan.  I am basicially limited to what
> I can
> >> find on the Net, and I have searched but have not
> found
> >> anything written up on it here.
> >>> 
> >>> Even though during my 27 years here at the
> site I have
> >> kept a keen eye out through all seasons for any
> flower that
> >> would fit the bill, I never saw one. 
> However, the
> >> other night at about 3:00 a.m. I was out in our
> yard (we
> >> live in the Director's house on-Site), and noticed
> a very
> >> small bush of flowers in full bloom!!  In the
> daytime
> >> the plant is in plain sight yet barely noticeable,
> so I kept
> >> going outside for a few evenings/nights and
> confirmed that
> >> indeed, that is the only time the flowers open.
> >>> 
> >>> I took pictures myself, but there is a good
> one here
> >> (it's the white one):
> >>> 
> >>> http://www.uni.edu/~andersow/fourpetals.html
> >>> 
> >>> The flower is:
> >>> 
> >>> Cutleaf Evening-Primrose
> >>> 
> >>> Oenothera coronopifolia
> >>> 
> >>> Onagraceae
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> It has only four petals, and is very similar
> to the
> >> ones we see in the art here.  Of course, to
> be so
> >> important iconographically, it would have to have
> something
> >> special about it.  On this site(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oenothera), among other
> >> things, it talks about its medicinal properties
> as
> >> "...considered to be effective in healing
> asthmatic coughs,
> >> gastro-intestinal disorders, whooping cough and as
> a
> >> sedative pain-killer. Poultices containing O.
> biennis were
> >> at one time used to ease bruises and speed wound
> >> healing."  It also states that this plant is
> believed
> >> to be a native of Mexico and South America.
> >>> 
> >>> Although anything that heals is good, it seems
> that
> >> for as long as man can remember, anything that
> sedates,
> >> relieves pain, or causes a general "feel good"
> state is even
> >> better.  Apparently this particular plant can
> produce
> >> that effect.
> >>> 
> >>> Do any of you know of any work out there
> already done
> >> on this topic?  I'm sure there must be
> SOMETHING, but I
> >> certainly don't have access to it here.  And,
> if it
> >> turns out there isn't anything, would anyone be
> interested
> >> in exploring it further with me?  I'm just
> blown away
> >> by the fact that I was too dense in the plant
> department to
> >> know that anything but night-blooming jasmine
> opened up when
> >> the sun went down!
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks for indulging me, and please remember
> that I
> >> will be around Teo. during the ICA next
> month.  My cel
> >> no. is 552-717-9845.  Give me a jingle if
> anyone can
> >> make it out for a visit!
> >>> 
> >>> Best to all of you,
> >>> 
> >>> KIM
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>
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> >>> 
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 