[Aztlan] 4-Petal Flower I.D. in Teotihuacan??

Tue Jun 16 20:56:41 CDT 2009

Hi Matt!

Thanks for the info. about the Mural Painting books - - it's very helpful to me.

As for being an introduced species, the Wikipedia article was specific in stating that it is BELIEVED to be native to Mexico and South America.  I'm sure a phytolyth expert could give us a better idea of the possibilities - - maybe Aurora Montúfar (INAH).

The pix are from FAMSI:  http://www.famsi.org/reports/97050/section02e4.htm

Photo 154, Fig. L shows the stamin as bumps.  Figs. A and B on there show what I thought were stamin, but are probably 3 drops, as they radiate from the center's edge instead of directly from the center.

Photo 153, Fig. E also has the "drops" motif.

I googled "flowers with 4 petals", and although there are other existing flowers that match that description, the shape of the petals themselves do NOT match up.  Many are pointed at the end, or are spikey, etc.  The type of Primrose in my yard is the only thing I can find that is extremely close to a perfect match.  I think I'll write to the Home Depot Gardening Center on their website and ask them what they might come up with.  They are very knowledgeable and are prompt with their replies (and no, I don't own stock in the company - lol).

My husband says he believes that Emily McClung de Tapia (IIA - UNAM) wrote something about it long ago, but all our stuff is packed right now, so I'm going to write directly to her and see what she has to say.

MODERATORS - - I didn't expect this to generate this much interest, but I'm glad it did.  All Listeros can participate in this "Easter egg hunt" on some level, which is a lot of fun.  However, should it get boring to everyone and the flogging of dead horses begins, just say the word and we can take the discussions off-board.

Thanks again to everyone for your patience and input!!!

KIM

--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Matthew H. Robb <mhrobb at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Matthew H. Robb <mhrobb at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] 4-Petal Flower I.D. in Teotihuacan??
> To: "kim Goldsmith" <kiminmexico at yahoo.com>
> Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 6:08 PM
> There's an essay in the
> Estudios volume of the Proyecto Pintura Mural Teotihuacan
> books by Albino Luna. It covers morning glory, maguey, maize
> & squash, biznaga, waterlilies, beans, cacao, tule, but
> the very common "4-Petal Flower" motif is not
> readily linked to anything specific. At least based on the
> pictures, this looks like a match to me as well. I like this
> idea quite a bit, especially the implications attached to
> night-blooming.  Just asking, given what we are now finding
> about "invasive species" in our own day and age,
> but is it in any way possible that this variety of primrose
> is post-Conquest?
> 
> Kim, exactly which figures are you looking at on the FAMSI
> report? 
> 
> Matthew Robb
> 
> From:
> kim Goldsmith <kiminmexico at yahoo.com>
> To: michael
> ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
> Cc:
> aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Sent:
> Tuesday, June 16, 2009 4:37:20 PM
> Subject: Re:
> [Aztlan] 4-Petal Flower I.D. in Teotihuacan??
> 
> 
> Hi Mike!
> 
> Of course I'm on board with you all the way on most of
> that - - just like the quincunce.  However, THAT is
> potentially perhaps the principle, but not the only reason
> that a four-petaled flower would be singled out......if it
> had great medicinal properties, it would make it
> additionally sacred.
> 
> So my main point is that although there were other things
> (like the quincunce) that have the cardinal points and
> sacred center, their design is comprehensive but somewhat
> abstract.  I believe that the 4-petal flower image is based
> on a true flower that actually exists, and this Primrose
> thing is the only one I've ever seen around here.  I
> would imagine that it was additionally awe-inspiring to the
> Prehispanic folks (as it was to me), that this beautiful
> flower can only be seen at night, which goes against the
> grain of most "normal" plants and therefore makes
> it special.  And of course since there was a lot of
> astronomic observation, at the very least the skywatchers
> could have seen these flowers while everyone else (except
> perhaps sentries) were snug on their petates.
> 
> I found some pictures of ceramic molds on FAMSI (submitted
> by Saburo Sugiyama, based on the work of Luís Carlos
> Múnera Bermúdez [deceased]).  Some of the 4PFs even show
> the stamin (sp?) off to the side over one of the petals,
> just like this Primrose. Whatever the reasons they may have
> chosen this particular flower, unless someone has come up
> with something else, I think we may have a match here.
> 
> I might add that while it is true that there are four
> shallow chambers in the Prehispanic tunnel under the Pyramid
> of the Sun here, I believe that they DO represent the
> cardinal points but think it is stretching it to equate it
> with the 4PF.  Just my opinion, but we've all seen the
> topo maps of the chambers.  The 4 can't be directly
> accross from each other due to the "tunnel" that
> leads into the area, so that causes it to be off from a true
> cruciform pattern.
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to see what folks think.  I guess I
> either need to get out more or keep a better eye on my cats
> and just not go out at all!  Ha Ha!
> 
> KIM
> 
> --- On Tue, 6/16/09, michael ruggeri  wrote:
> 
> > From: michael ruggeri 
> > Subject: Re: [Aztlan] 4-Petal Flower I.D. in
> Teotihuacan??
> > To: "kim Goldsmith" 
> > Cc: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> > Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 2:13 PM
> > Kim,
> >
> > I see the 4 petaled flower as the 4 corners of the
> universe
> > with the world tree in the center symbolism that is so
> > prevalent in all of the Americas expressed in slightly
> > different ways in each ancient culture in the
> Americas. If
> > it is true that the Teotihuacanos believed their
> location is
> > where the fifth sun was created and the universe began
> anew
> > there with Teotihuacan serving as a kind of Garden of
> Eden,
> > using the four petaled flower as the symbol of the
> four
> > corners of the universe with the world tree in the
> center is
> > apt for the Teo ideology. The whole city was laid out
> in the
> > same fashion with a north/south and east/west axis.
> And
> > remember the tomb underneath the Pyramid of the Sun
> was
> > shaped into a 4 leaf design.
> >
> > Mike Ruggeri
> >
> >
> > On Jun 16, 2009, at 3:53 PM, kim Goldsmith wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hi All!
> > >
> > > I have always wondered about the botanical i.d.
> of the
> > 4-petal flower so widely represented here in
> > Teotihuacan.  I am basicially limited to what I
> can
> > find on the Net, and I have searched but have not
> found
> > anything written up on it here.
> > >
> > > Even though during my 27 years here at the site I
> have
> > kept a keen eye out through all seasons for any flower
> that
> > would fit the bill, I never saw one.  However,
> the
> > other night at about 3:00 a.m. I was out in our yard
> (we
> > live in the Director's house on-Site), and noticed
> a very
> > small bush of flowers in full bloom!!  In the
> daytime
> > the plant is in plain sight yet barely noticeable, so
> I kept
> > going outside for a few evenings/nights and confirmed
> that
> > indeed, that is the only time the flowers open.
> > >
> > > I took pictures myself, but there is a good one
> here
> > (it's the white one):
> > >
> > > http://www.uni.edu/~andersow/fourpetals.html
> > >
> > > The flower is:
> > >
> > > Cutleaf Evening-Primrose
> > >
> > > Oenothera coronopifolia
> > >
> > > Onagraceae
> > >
> > >
> > > It has only four petals, and is very similar to
> the
> > ones we see in the art here.  Of course, to be so
> > important iconographically, it would have to have
> something
> > special about it.  On this site(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oenothera),
> among other
> > things, it talks about its medicinal properties as
> > "...considered to be effective in healing
> asthmatic coughs,
> > gastro-intestinal disorders, whooping cough and as a
> > sedative pain-killer. Poultices containing O. biennis
> were
> > at one time used to ease bruises and speed wound
> > healing."  It also states that this plant is
> believed
> > to be a native of Mexico and South America.
> > >
> > > Although anything that heals is good, it seems
> that
> > for as long as man can remember, anything that
> sedates,
> > relieves pain, or causes a general "feel
> good" state is even
> > better.  Apparently this particular plant can
> produce
> > that effect.
> > >
> > > Do any of you know of any work out there already
> done
> > on this topic?  I'm sure there must be
> SOMETHING, but I
> > certainly don't have access to it here.  And,
> if it
> > turns out there isn't anything, would anyone be
> interested
> > in exploring it further with me?  I'm just
> blown away
> > by the fact that I was too dense in the plant
> department to
> > know that anything but night-blooming jasmine opened
> up when
> > the sun went down!
> > >
> > > Thanks for indulging me, and please remember that
> I
> > will be around Teo. during the ICA next month. 
> My cel
> > no. is 552-717-9845.  Give me a jingle if anyone
> can
> > make it out for a visit!
> > >
> > > Best to all of you,
> > >
> > > KIM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
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