[Aztlan] Calling attention to the French and how they help in one's research
Jerry Offner
ixtlil at earthlink.net
Thu Mar 12 21:06:42 CDT 2009
I thank Alfonso Lacadena for his articulate and forthright response and his
appreciation for most aspects of the work of Marc Thouvenot. I am happy to
have elicited the root of a disagreement between them, although it had led
to non-citation of Thouvenot's important work. It looks like any
non-prescriptive laden cooperation between them will have to be
accomplished by others. Disputes and distinctions of this nature are
frustrating, if "stimulating" for those interested in the understanding of
Nahua culture--in this case the understanding of Nahua historiography
(roughly the art and philosophy of understanding, presenting and writing
history).
Certainly, the recent work of Lacadena will be useful to linguists as the
latest iteration of a long and effective effort by researchers seeking to
understand and to present the nature of the Nahua writing system. It can
be discussed with students with a few preselected "to be identified" glyphs
as a practical exercise. And I have noted other aspects of the work that
are new and useful, including the confirming of the expected tie of the
Codex de Xicotepec to the Texcocan school of scribes (Xicotepec had
longstanding pre-Conquest ties to Xicotepec).
However, if one is engaged in research into the content of Nahua historical
codices, one will soon bog down without the support of Thouvenot. The
principal practical problem in this arena is recognizing the object that
has been drawn on the page. Thouvenot's work aids greatly in such
recognition and also in the reading of the glyph or icon or whatever
classification one wishes to impose on it--which reading is often not
obvious from the glyph itself. It is for these reasons that I continue to
recommend (with no need or intent to defend) the work of Thouvenot.
Further, I think that the work of Thouvenot goes much further in capturing
the thoughts and methods of these Nahua historiographers, and the contrast
between the two approaches of Thouevnot and Lacadena has made me appreciate
the extent of the historiographer scribes' accomplishments all the more
(see "stimulating" above).
Jerry Offner
> [Original Message]
> From: Alfonso Lacadena <lorengar at idecnet.com>
> To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Date: 3/2/2009 06:32:34 PM
> Subject: [Aztlan] 2. Calling attention to the French and how they help
inone's research
>
>
> Concerning Jerry Offner's comments about French
> research, of course I am in total agreement with
> him, although, frankly, I never thought that
> French research needed to be publicly defended.
> If a Mesoamericanist does not know it---shame for
> him or her---that would simply show that his or
> her research is clearly not updated. I think
> everybody agrees that French scholars are good
> researchers, some of them excellent, brilliant
> researchers, and many of their projects
> intellectual references in the field. Let me say
> that I talk from personal experience, since I
> have had the opportunity, as epigrapher, for
> several years, to work closely with some of the
> researchers of CNRS and Nanterre University in
> subjects like Maya archaeology, linguistics and
> literature, fields in which they have been and
> are renowned leading scholars. The last European
> Maya Conference took place in Paris last December
> and was really successful, in fact the most
> crowded European Maya Conference ever held, with
> attendants coming form all over the World
> attracted by the intellectual prestige of the organizers.
>
> I deeply respect M. Thouvenot and his many
> contributions to the field, and acknowledge the
> way in which he and his team generously share
> data. But if I have not made many references in
> my work to it is not, as Offner suggests, because
> I don't know it, but perhaps because generally
> speaking I don't agree with late Galarza's school
> of research and how it understands Nahuatl
> writing system, with a method that does not
> discriminate between writing and iconography,
> putting together under the same label of 'glyph'
> true glyphs, but also icons and symbols.
>
> Alfonso Lacadena
>
>
>
> At 19:00 01/03/2009, you wrote:
> >Send Aztlan mailing list submissions to
> > aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> >
> >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
> >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > aztlan-request at lists.famsi.org
> >
> >You can reach the person managing the list at
> > aztlan-owner at lists.famsi.org
> >
> >When replying, please change the Subject line of your email to match
> >the exact topic being discussed, and delete all but the most important
> >text from previous messages.
> >
> >When replying, please remove all topics not related to your reply.
> >Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Ethnohistorical Archaeology in Mexico- field school
> > (Danny Zborover)
> > 2. Calling attention to the French and how they help in one's
> > research (Jerry Offner)
> > 3. Southwest Seminars March Lectures (michael ruggeri)
> >
> >
> >From: Danny Zborover <dazborov at hotmail.com>
> >Precedence: list
> >Subject: [Aztlan] Ethnohistorical Archaeology in Mexico- field school
> >Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:22:16 +0000
> >To: <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> >References: <mailman.1.1235844002.24237.aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> >In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1235844002.24237.aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> >Message-ID: <BLU148-W30E6C3DAA96D4C5D6A450AD6AB0 at phx.gbl>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset
indows-1252"
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Message: 1
> >
> >
> >Please distribute to the list. Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >ONLY A FEW SPACES LEFT!
> >
> >Cotsen Institute of Archaeology
> >UCLA Archaeology Field Program
> >Ethnohistorical Archaeology in Mexico
> >July 26 - August 30, 2009
> >Explore the bonds between archaeological
> >research and art history, ethnohistory, and
> >ethnography in an intensive program that goes
> >from bustling Mexico City to the scenic valleys,
> >mountains, and coasts of Oaxaca. This unique
> >study environment will allow you to travel
> >through 3,000 years in the development of
> >ancient kingdoms, the impact of European
> >colonialism, and the endurance and adaptations
> >of present-day people; as viewed through the
> >exploration of archaeological and historical
> >sites, museum collections, and thriving
> >indigenous communities. Excursions will be
> >integrated with classroom courses and on-site
> >lectures delivered by experts on ethnohistorical
> >documents, pictographic writing systems,
> >archaeological field and lab methods, and ethnographic research.
> > Directed by Dr. John M.D. Pohl, Curator of the
> > Arts of the Americas at the Fowler Museum at UCLA.
> >
> >For program fees, detailed outline, and other
> >information visit:
> >http://www.archaeology.ucla.edu/Mexico/overview.htm
> >or contact Danny Zborover dazborov at hotmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >The new Windows Live Messenger. You don’t want to miss this.
> >http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx
> >
> >From: "Jerry Offner" <ixtlil at earthlink.net>
> >Precedence: list
> >Subject: [Aztlan] Calling attention to the French and how they help in
one's
> > research
> >Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:02:54 -0600
> >To: "Aztlan" <Aztlan at lists.famsi.org>, "Nahuat-L"
<nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> >Reply-To: ixtlil at earthlink.net
> >Message-ID: <380-2200926282025478 at earthlink.net>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charsetª-ASCII
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Message: 2
> >
> >Recent comments on the list provide an
> >opportunity to point out again the excellence
> >and utility of the body of work assembled by
> >French researchers on things Nahua or Aztec or
> >whatever. For present purposes to avoid further
> >controversy, let's call them "residents of what
> >is now called part of Mexico before the Spanish
> >invasion"--that's got a great commercial ring to
> >it! I only wish we saw such energy invested in
> >line by line understanding of the written
> >sources and their relationships, and more
> >importantly the written sources' relationships
> >to the pictorial material. Instead, until
> >recent times, we have seen so many resources,
> >decade after decade, directed towards
> >reclassifying Nahua culture and history to fit
> >Western ideologies and related grand theoretical
> >schemes. The results have proven better at
> >exposing the explanatory inadequacy of these
> >themes than in understanding the Nahua. The
> >French, in the meantime, have been paying
> >attention to the facts on the ground an!
> > d trying to understand Nahua culture in its
> > own terms and the results show it.
> >
> >There is no question that the work of the French
> >is little regarded and little known. A recent
> >article in Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl by
> >Jongsoo Lee purports to provide a new and proper
> >understanding at last of Texcoco and
> >Nezahualcoyotl. It does not cite or discuss at
> >all the work of Patrick Lesbre, available in
> >both French and Spanish. Lesbre had covered
> >this same ground years earlier, better, far more
> >accurately and with far more insight,
> >experience, appropriate restraint and
> >subtlety. Had the author been aware of or read
> >Lesbre's work, the publication might have been
> >abandoned as inferior and superfluous. Neither
> >is the work of Marc Thouvenot productively
> >utilized, especially his lifetime of work on the
> >Codex Xolotl. The lack of evidence presented
> >from and evident lack of knowledge of the
> >content of the Codex Xolotl invalidates the
> >author's "telescoped history" attempts to
> >discuss Tenochcan, Texcocan (and Azcapotzalcan)
> >history and their interrelationships. A hund!
> > red years of history comes across as flat as a
> > printed page. You can't write about Aztecs and
> > in particular you can't write about Texcoco
> > without knowing the work of the French
> > researchers over the past three decades.
> >
> >Recently, Lacandena published on Nahua writing,
> >appearing to scold many, and I think quite
> >inappropriately, for their perceived
> >inadequacies in linguistic formalities and
> >presentation methods without making more than a
> >passing reference to Thouvenot's work--only his
> >dissertation and not the body of programs--in
> >French, Spanish and also usually English easily found on-line at:
> >
> >http://www.sup-infor.com/index.htm
> >
> >(At least one list member of these lists is a
> >contributor. It is still fashionable in some
> >shrinking enclaves to deride or dismiss on-line
> >material but this, as is often the case, is of
> >the highest quality and is in many ways better
> >than printed material. A major DVD of the
> >resources on line and new material is in press
> >for those who prefer a material token or talisman for legitimacy).
> >
> >Marc's work is easily searched to form and
> >investigate hypotheses on glyphs and their
> >readings. For example, Lacandena does a good
> >job of showing a particular kind of bird glyph
> >can be read as huilo- as well as or instead of
> >toto- (uh-oh, I hope I am not scolded for my
> >presentation method in this instance, I took off
> >those pesky -tl's but left the rest in lower
> >case and did not use the canonic form, and did
> >not indicate vowel length, but I think they're
> >all long anyway...). A quick use of the program
> >CEN from Thouvenot and his group automatically
> >provides just over a dozen examples of glyphs
> >with the huilo- element, easily allowing the
> >user to pop up pictures of the glyphs and
> >providing exact references as to their
> >location. Experienced people working on glyphs
> >in a document are going to be using Marc's
> >program to investigate all types of birds that
> >appear as candidates, although you can usually
> >quickly rule in or out owls and other birds with distinctive
appearances. Fo!
> > r example, if you are trying to match
> > toponymic glyphs in a pictorial document with
> > colonial and modern lists of place names or
> > with names on maps, you are going to
> > investigate any possibility that comes to
> > mind--and most of the time you still won't get
> > a "hit" or you'll get too many--e.g. Coatepec,
> > Huehuetepec, etc.. You will also be more
> > efficient time if you are not using canonic
> > forms. The same is true of types of trees and
> > snakes. Lacadena's work does contain the
> > promise of a deeper grammatical understanding
> > of glyphic texts, except that there aren't any,
> > other than a few strings in the Codex Xolotl
> > that Dibble has published on years ago. Still,
> > Lacandena does a good job of showing that the
> > Codex de Xicotepec has strong relationships to
> > the Texcocan school of tlacuilome. Perhaps
> > some sort of non-prescriptive-laden bridge can
> > be built between the two efforts of Lacandena and Thouvenot.
> >
> >Regarding the website mentioned above, can
> >anyone cite instances of references to this
> >on-line body of work in recent, non-French,
> >non-Mexican published work? (There are some
> >among the Mexican researchers that Marc has
> >patiently trained, but any from the US? Getting
> >a list of those works would very likely prove an
> >efficient roadmap to good recent work).
> >
> >
> >Other resources on the website produced by Marc
> >and his collaborators include an on-line Nahuatl
> >dictionary and a veritable Nahua encyclopedia
> >placing individual glyphs in a natural science
> >context or in a cultural context via references
> >to Sahagun and other sources. All resources are
> >linked, so that if your are investigating
> >snakes, you might recognize, as Sybille de Pury
> >did, at a glance, that the apparent Coatepec
> >glyph in Section 5 of the Codex de Xicotepec is
> >very likely not Coatepec but instead is more
> >likely related to the snake
> >teuctlacozauhqui. If you enter
> >"TECUTLACOZAUHQUI" into the GDN program (yes,
> >they know about teuc- and tecu- so let's skip all that...), you find:
> >
> >TECUTLACOZAUHQUI : "La amarilla gobernante"
> >(Tecutlacoçauhquj)
> >Ay en esta tierra una culebra que se llama
> >tecutlacoçauhquj. Dizen: es el principe, o
> >princesa de todas las culebras, es gruessa, y
> >larga: tiene eslabones en la cola, como vibora:
> >tiene grande cabeça, y gran boca tiene dientes;
> >y la lengua orcaxada: tiene escamas gruessas, es
> >de color amarillo de la color de la flor de la
> >calabaça: tiene unas manchas negras como las del
> >tigre: los eslabones tienen pardillos, y duros:
> >silva esta serpiente. Come conejos y liebres, y
> >aves; come cualesqujer aves /o anjmales: y
> >aunque tiene dientes no los masca, sino
> >tragalos, y alla dentro los dixiere, o desmuele.
> >Si alguna ave topa tragasela entera, y si estan
> >encima de algun arbol arrojelos la ponçoña con
> >que los haze cayer muertos. Lib. 11, fol. 77, p. 229 r. y v.
> >Esta serpiente siempre anda, acompañada, con su
> >hembra; y la hembra con su macho: aunque siempre
> >andan el uno apartado del otro y quando se
> >qujeren juntar silva el uno, y luego viene el
> >otro. y si alguno mata al uno dellos el otro
> >persigue al que le mato hasta que le mata. En
> >los eslabones se parece, si esta serpiente es de
> >muchos años: porque cada año produce un eslabon
> >esta culebra /o serpiente no puede andar por
> >tierra rasa mas va por encima del heno y de las
> >matas como volando, sino le hazen mal no hazen
> >mal. Lib. 11, fol. 78, p. 230 r. y v.
> >Ay otra culebra que se llama cincoatl, o
> >cencoatl; es mediana, no tiene cascabeles, nj
> >muerde es amarilla, y colorada, y parda escura,
> >qujere parecer a la culebra que se llama
> >tecutlacoçauhquj. Lib. 11, fol. 87, p. 239 v.
> >You then go back and look more closely at the
> >Codex de Xicotepec glyph and you see it is
> >composed of two facing yellow snakes with spots,
> >forked tongues and (small) rattles. One of the
> >most obvious Coatepec glyphs of all times then
> >becomes most likely not a Coatepec glyph at
> >all. And you broaden your search of place names well beyond Coatepec.
> >Marc is extremely generous with his time and a
> >researcher ignores his work at their peril. For
> >example, his efforts, along with Sybille de Pury
> >have helped me identify the second town in the
> >Codex de Xicotepec as Cuauhchinanco and have
> >helped me rule out any appearance of
> >Nezahualcoyotl in that codex until Section 16
> >(rather than Section 9 as the author of the ECN
> >article, uncritically following Stresser-Pean,
> >supposes). And it was of course Lesbre in his
> >review of Stresser-Pean's book long ago that
> >initially suggested that Stresser-Pean's reading
> >of the Nezahualcoyotl glyph in Section 9 was
> >incorrect and that he appeared instead in the
> >later section--where his glyph is quite clear
> >but was misread by Stresser-Pean. And of
> >course, the French Guy and Claude Stresser-Pean
> >were the ones sufficiently trusted by the people
> >of the small village of Cuaxicala to allow them
> >to being their codex to the public.
> >
> >The French education system has had a way of
> >producing people with finely tuned sensitivities
> >to texts, pictorial as well as alphabetic--every
> >detail is considered important, and Marc's, and
> >his collaborators' and Patrick's work all show
> >it. And leaving aside facility in reading
> >French, which is often just a few sound changes
> >away from Spanish and can be managed with a good
> >(on-line or paper) dictionary, the French have
> >been diligent in their efforts to publish in
> >Spanish and they are enthusiastic in their
> >efforts to communicate by e-mail in English or
> >Spanish, finding French not sufficiently
> >challenging). Why, then, their low profile in
> >the US? Perhaps their empirical rather than
> >ideological approach has kept them
> >isolated? Although academic resources may be at
> >an all-time low, albeit with some hope of
> >improvement on the horizon, it would be good to
> >get Thouvenot and his group and Lesbre over to
> >the US to raise our game some.
> >
> >
> >Jerry Offner
> >ixtlil at earthlink.net
> >
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >From: michael ruggeri <michaelruggeri at mac.com>
> >Precedence: list
> >Subject: [Aztlan] Southwest Seminars March Lectures
> >Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:33:10 -0600
> >To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> >Message-ID: <007D8090-BF2B-4A5E-A220-75133BE9C090 at mac.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charsetª-ASCII;
> > formatúowed;
> > delsp®s
> >MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3)
> >Message: 3
> >
> >
> >March 16
> >Southwest Seminars Lecture
> >"Calendars in Stone"
> >Ron Barber
> >International Research, Analysis and Technology Development (IAT-1)
> >Los Alamos National Laboratory
> >Hotel Santa Fe
> >Sante Fe, New Mexico
> >http://southwestseminars.org/SouthwestSeminars.org/Lectures.html
> >
> >March 23
> >Southwest Seminars Lecture
> >"Hunter-Gatherers and Hunting Motivation"
> >Dr. John D. Speth
> >Archaeologist, and Arthur Thurnow Professor of Anthropology
> >University of Michigan
> >Hotel Santa Fe
> >Sante Fe, New Mexico
> >http://southwestseminars.org/SouthwestSeminars.org/Lectures.html
> >
> >March 30
> >Southwest Seminars Lecture
> >"Chaco Chocolate: The Recovery of Cacao at Pueblo Bonito"
> >Dr. Patty Crown
> >Archaeologist and Distinguished Professor of Anthropology
> >(Archaeology), University of New Mexico
> >Hotel Santa Fe
> >Sante Fe, New Mexico
> >http://southwestseminars.org/SouthwestSeminars.org/Lectures.html
> >
> >
> >Mike Ruggeri's Ancient America Museum Exhibitions, Conferences and
> >Lectures
> >http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/AncientAmerica/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Aztlan mailing list
> >Click here to send a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> >http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aztlan mailing list
> http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/aztlan
> Click here to post a message Aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Click to view Calendar of Events
http://research.famsi.org/events/events.php
>
More information about the Aztlan
mailing list