[Aztlan] Raindrop effect at all Mesoamerican pyramids?

Wed Oct 7 01:53:15 CDT 2009

I've read the original post with interest. 

I'm sure sound effects like echoes, early refflections, etc, have been noted by people, and construction has been adapted to recreate these artifacts. 
>From the times when men gather in large spaces have been developed to make these meetings, which can be an amphitheater or a pyramid or just a great house. Gothic cathedrals, and christian temples in general, are examples of use of architectural parameters for some specific sonic results. Sound engineers today NEED TO use artificial reverb to recreate the sound that takes human voice in a cave, or in his modern version, a house. 

I'm impressed by the sound produced by the stairs, wich is the result of spacing the steps a distance that is reflected in a higher sound delay for each step farther, with a volume decrease related to the greater distance and smaller area.. Of course there aren't many other ways to build a pyramid. And there are other reasons, but... but this may be one.

Cannot see a reason to suppose that pretty obvious architectural sound artifacts were not noticed or were discarded by civilizations using all means, including psychedelic drugs, ritual chanting, fire, self-inflicted pain, colours, organized team sports, human sacrifice, to carefully copy and create the order in the universe. 

But since I'm interested too in the order of the universe, and  	
although I am not an engineer, I work with sound questions, from long time ago, I find that sound frequency divided by sound speed (in air approximately 330 meters per second) gives you a value called "wavelenght". To produce a mid-frequency sound a membrane have to vibrate hundreds of times per second. For this sound has a noticeable volume, has to move, say, some millimeters. Look at the drums of a battery. Look at the drivers of your stereo. Small things make high pitched sounds. Big things produce bass sounds. A 30 cm brick wall let through almost no sound..

I do not intend to question all your assumptions, just telling you what seems to me almost obvious. Do the experiment, I will clap if you succeed.

Marcelo 

pd: I will clap.. in front of a temple, to see wath happens :)

--- El mar 6-oct-09, Wayne Van Kirk <wvk at swbell.net> escribió:

> De: Wayne Van Kirk <wvk at swbell.net>
> Asunto: Re: [Aztlan] Raindrop effect at all Mesoamerican pyramids?
> Para: aztlan at lists.famsi.org, "Marcelo Donadello" <marcemusic at yahoo.com>
> Fecha: martes, 6 de octubre de 2009, 6:24 pm
> #1) "sound
> result of evanescent waves related to the
> corrugations."
> VS
> 
> #2) "two-dimendional drum model. According to the
> simpler model, the
> raindrop effect is essentially a drum sound that would be
> expected on
> "hollow" pyramids such as
>  the temple of Kukulkan"
> 
> Not that I know what I'm talking about but couldn't
> this be resolved by a simple experiment? 
> 
> Create an impulse sound that does not require physical
> contact with the steps .Perhaps a handclap, placed close to
> the steps.  If # 1 is correct we would expect a good
> raindrop effect on the opposite end, if #2 is correct we
> would expect no much at the opposite end.
> Or some of both?
> 
> WVK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 10/4/09, Marcelo
> Donadello
> <marcemusic at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> From: Marcelo Donadello <marcemusic at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Raindrop effect at all Mesoamerican
> pyramids?
> To: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> Date:
>  Sunday, October 4, 2009, 8:07 PM
> 
> Listeros:
> 
> First, the sound reflection in mid and high frequencies
> does not have relation with the quota of
>  flexibility (membrane like?? !!) that would generate
> sounds of
>  rain or of quetzal, any vibration
>  associated with the mentioned magnitudes (interior mass of
> the pyramid) would have much lower frequency.
> 
> And it is impossible that a tunnel (a relatively small hole
> in the total mass of the pyramid) influences perceptibly in
> the external echoes of this one.
> 
> It makes no physical seriousness what is being proposed.
> Mid and high frequency reflections only have relation with
> the exterior form and the covering of the pyramids. Sorry.
> 
> Forgive my english.
> My today -2 cents.
> Marcelo Donadello, músico.
> 
> 
> 
> --- El sáb 3-oct-09, David Lubman <dlubman at verizon.net> escribió:
> 
> > De: David Lubman <dlubman at verizon.net>
> > Asunto: [Aztlan] Raindrop effect at all Mesoamerican
> pyramids?
> > Para: aztlan at lists.famsi.org
> > Fecha: sábado, 3 de octubre de 2009, 5:24 pm
> > Listeros:
> >
> > David Hixson posted this item on
>  9/29/09 and repeated
> > below:
> >
> > Wayne Van Kirk wished me to forward this recent news
> > article to the list...
> >
> > "Mayans 'played' pyramids to make music
> for rain god"
> >
> > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327266.200-mayans-played-pyramids-to-make-music-for-rain-god.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news
> >
> > This 22 September New Scientist article was written
> by
> > Linda Geddes. There were 40 reader comments at the NS
> > website at last check. It is based on a paper
>  recently
> > published in Acta Acustica united with Acustica, DOI:
> > 10.3813/AAA.918216
> >
> > The article provides a great opportunity to add some
> > archaeology to archaeological acoustics. Mesoamerican
> > experts have the best resources and understanding to
> answer
> > questions raised in this paper. I will attempt to
> describe
> > it's acoustical thesis neutrally, withholding my
> own
> > opinions.
> >
> > The article is one of several papers by the authors
> about
> > the "raindrop effect", so named by the
> second author
> > (Declercq) who discovered it at the temple of Kukulkan
> at
> > Chichen Itza in 2002. The effect is said to resemble
> the
> > sound of a raindrop falling into a bucket. The sound
> is
> > stimulated by footfalls on the staircase, and is heard
> only
> > very close to the surface of the staircase.
> >
> > A key question: Is the"raindrop effect" a
> feature of
>  all
> > Maya pyramids and all Mexican pyramids as its authors
> claim?
> > (Perhaps the authors meant all staircased limestone
> > pyramids.)
> >
> > The authors explain the sound as result of evanescent
> waves
> > related to the corrugations.
> >
> > One critic suggested a explanation based on a simpler
> > heuristic, two-dimendional drum model. According to
> the
> > simpler model, the raindrop effect is essentially a
> drum
> > sound that would be expected on "hollow"
> pyramids such as
> > the temple of Kukulkan, but not on filled or
> "solid"
> > pyramids (those with airspaces beneath their
> staircase.) The
> > simpler heuristic model envisions the staircase as a
> more or
> > less homogeneous rectangular elastic membrane fixed at
> its
> > four boundaries (two balustrades and at the top and
> bottom
> > of the staircase) but free to flex when stimulated by
> > footfalls in mid-staircase.
>  Obviously, the staircase could
> > not drum if there was no airspace underneath. He
> offered
> > anecdotal evidence of an uynidentified pyramid
> (possibly at
> > Copan) at which the raindrop sound was absent until
> an
> > archaeologists tunnel was dug into it.
> >
> > A simple one dimensional reduction would be a violin
> string
> > or better, an elastic rod, held taught at both ends
> >
> > Ths subject paper responds to the unstated criticism
> with
> > new tests at Teotihuacán's pyramid of the moon
> which
> > demonstrated the existence of the raindrop effect on a
> solid
> > (no airspace) pyramid (?) The authors offer this as
> proof
> > that the raindrop effect exists on all pyramids.
> >
> > Mesoamericanists, please comment!
> >
> > David Lubman
> > -------------------
> >
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