[Aztlan] Does Yax L.41 have a "cup-and-ring" ?

[ECOLING at aol.com]

Gary and others:
 
If you are using "cup-and-ring" in the sense of the wikipedia article, 
then it carries a lot more baggage and it is not merely one small  circle 
inside another.  I suggested more neutral terminology because  what
you refer to on Yaxchilan Lintel 41, in other examples, does not
appear to show additional similarities to what you call  "cup-and-ring".
The type of the Wikipedia article tends to have 3-dimensional  implications 
in part (reason for the word "cup" originally?), possibly a channel  
"gutter"
leading from it, etc.  Neither of those characteristics applies to  what 
you have in the headdress of Yaxchilan Lintel 41.  
In order to carve it in stone, of course it has to be 3-dimensional, 
in a trivial sense,
but its meaning *as symbol* may not involve 3 dimensions in the 
Mayan case, or at least not in the same sense.
The crucial question is whether it belongs to the *same cultural  tradition*
and had the same symbolic meaning as the "cup-and-ring" carvings
referred to in the Wikipedia article.  Most of us would estimate  that
it did not and does not.  
 
It is perfectly legitimate to consider universal tendencies of humans
to use certain kinds of symbols.  But it is just silly to disregard  known
parallels much closer to home.  I gave two Mayan examples.
I should have included a third.  There is also a Mayan glyph for
the day sign "Muluc", associated with "water".  Some speculate  that
the symbol for green jade has that form because of a link of the 
green color to water, so these two may have a common origin.  
 
If one wants to argue that the parallels closer to home 
are not the more relevant ones, it is *sometimes*
possible to accumulate evidence suggesting that.  But usually  that
kind of argument is not convincing, it manifests a belief that one  has
an answer for which data and evidence are not needed.
 
Gary writes:
<<
Just to clarify: "cup-and-ring" is a term used in petroglyph studies.  It's
not my term. It refers to a very specific design, consisting of  concentric
circles with central dot or circle, and is found carved in rocks  throughout
the world. This rock art design appears to begin during the Bronze  Age.

Here's a Wikipedia article on the  subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cup_and_ring_mark
>>
 
Best wishes,
Lloyd
 
Lloyd  Anderson
Ecological Linguistics
PO Box 15156
Washington, DC  20003
ecoling at aol.com
202-547-7683