[Aztlan] EK & CHAY glyphs related?

[Barb MacLeod]

Hi, Gary,

There is absolutely no evidence that inverting a sign reverses its meaning, but it does almost always change it. A nice example would be the glyph for SKY which, when inverted, is the syllable /pu/. Another: the day sign AJAW, also with an as-yet-uncertain logographic meaning when not being a day sign, is the syllable /la/ when inverted. (The as-yet-uncertain meaning is neither AJAW nor /la/, and the discussion of possibilities is worthy of a book). The inverted moon sign is a puzzler (I'm hoping Dave Stuart will respond) and may be associated with lunar conjunction. BUT--the upright moon sign, with slightly different infixes, has several logographic values and one syllabic value.

Furthermore, the STAR sign outside the 'destruction' context is the day sign LAMAT, also a topic for a lengthy discussion (not here). The Central Mexican equivalent is RABBIT--not the most destructive beast on the planet (Australians may disagree). In the Dresden Venus Tables, the STAR sign surely reads EK', but outside astronomical contexts, probably not.

The STAR-with-WATER DROPS is also a topic for a lengthy discussion, and one began a couple of months ago with, as I recall, a query from Prudence Rice, so please check the Aztlan archives for that exchange. A suggested reading came up, and then Christian Prager reminded us that Erik Boot had long-ago suggested the same reading, and subsequently I have had detailed private exchanges with Erik and Christian and we seem to be at a point of consensus that it does, indeed, mean 'destruction' and 'collapse', but since it is Erik's reading, we on the list will have to hear from him on the specific Mayan root represented. I can say with confidence that it is not CHAY, however.

>I've also read in a classic Maya dictionary that CHAY means fish. How can
CHAY mean both fish and destruction?

Mayan languages have homonyms just as English does. And while English takes pains to often (not always) spell them differently, we have no problem sorting them out by ear from the context. This does not mean they are related or are part of some larger symbolic constellation. Consider /hops/ the verb, as in 'the rabbit hops' vs. /hops/ the plant, source of fine fermented brews. They're spelled the same but are unrelated, unless we want to make up a story about drunken rabbits.

>Thus the Mayan
word CHAY meaning both fish and ?to be destroyed? now makes sense as does
its association with EK/star (if, in fact, there is an association.)

There isn't.

>Thus, at least in the Mayan Flood Myth, CHAY, EK and CHUM are
interrelated.

No, they aren't.

If you really want to be *right* about all this, then it would be advisable to curb the imagination, set aside what you *want* to see, learn more about Mayan languages, and keep asking honest questions.

Barb

*****Original Message*****
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:19:46 -0500
From: Gary Daniels <Gary at lostworlds.org>
Subject: [Aztlan] EK & CHAY glyphs related?
To: Untitled <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Message-ID: <C77F7292.20EA%Gary at LostWorlds.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Are the glyphs for EK and CHAY related or did they evolve separately? CHAY
looks like an upside down version of EK. Is this the case or just a
coincidence? Does turning a Mayan glyph upside down give it a negative
association? In many cultures turning a symbol upside down has a negative
association....is it the same in Mayan?

Since EK means ?star? and CHAY means ?to be destroyed? it immediately brings
to mind the English word DISASTER. ASTER means ?star? and the prefix DIS
always creates a negative or opposite meaning to the word it precedes. (A
DIShonest person is the opposite of honest.) Thus DISASTER would literally
mean the opposite of star (or bad star) although its real meaning is very
similar to CHAY in that it relates to destruction:

disaster: a calamitous event, esp. one occurring suddenly and causing great
loss of life, damage, or hardship, as a flood

I?ve also read in a classic Maya dictionary that CHAY means fish. How can
CHAY mean both fish and destruction?

All of this makes me think of the ?Mayan Flood Myth and the Decapitation of
the Cosmic Caiman.? The events begin with the enthronement of God GI in the
sky thus clearly associating God GI with a star. Eleven years later the
cosmic caiman is decapitated and his body thrown into the ocean causing a
flood. The cosmic caiman is a water creature....like a fish. Thus the Mayan
word CHAY meaning both fish and ?to be destroyed? now makes sense as does
its association with EK/star (if, in fact, there is an association.)

Interestingly, the third definition of CHAY is ?to set down.? Does this mean
that CHAY is also related to CHUM? Again, this brings me back to the Mayan
Flood Myth with the enthronement of God GI in the sky. Enthronement is
scripted as CHUM. Since the enthronement happened in the sky, we get an
association with star or EK. Since all of this precedes the great flood
disaster, we get an association with CHAY (to be destroyed).  Since the
flood was caused by a water creature we get another association with CHAY
(fish). Thus, at least in the Mayan Flood Myth, CHAY, EK and CHUM are
interrelated.

The other question I have about CHAY is in regards to the 18 dots beneath
it. What do these represent? They consist of two groups of dots, 5 big dots
and 4 small dots, repeated twice, once on either side of the glyph. The
petroglyph I?m studying also has 18 dots carved into it and I can?t come up
with a good explanation as to why.

-Gary Daniels
http://www.LostWorlds.org