[Aztlan] EK & CHAY glyphs related?

[Gary Daniels]

Hi Barb,

OK, so inverting a sign almost always changes its meaning. What I'm trying
to understand is what does it mean when I see the EK' glyph drawn different
ways. I'm assuming the version on page 73 of the Intro to Maya Hieroglyphs
workbook is the "standard" way of drawing the glyph (otherwise, why would it
be in an introductory workbook?) So if this is the "standard" way, why do I
sometimes see the EK' glyph drawn inverted and still labeled as EK' or "star
glyph"? Are my sources simply incorrect (it wouldn't be the first time) or
is EK' one of the exceptions to the "almost always" rule? Can the EK' glyph
be drawn with any orientation and still mean 'star' when used within an
astronomical context?

I can somewhat deduce an answer from the mere fact that the so-called CH'AY
glyph is referred to as "STAR with WATER DROPS." This tells me that even
when inverted the sign is still recognized as 'star', in this case with the
addition of water drops. Now  here's where I get doubly confused: did the
meaning of the glyph change to "destruction" because it was inverted or
because the water drops were added....or both? In other words, when the
CH'AY glyph was first discovered what was the main clue that made the
researcher realize this wasn't merely EK' but was a totally different
concept? Was it the inversion of the glyph, the water drops, or both? Did
the inversion matter AT ALL?

(Having rewritten these two short paragraphs a total of three times, I'm
still not sure if I'm being clear. But it's the best I can do. Ah, the joys
of language.)

-gary




On 1/23/10 3:07 PM, "Barb MacLeod" <bmacleod at austin.rr.com> wrote:

> Hi, Gary,
> 
> There is absolutely no evidence that inverting a sign reverses its meaning,
> but it does almost always change it. A nice example would be the glyph for SKY
> which, when inverted, is the syllable /pu/. Another: the day sign AJAW, also
> with an as-yet-uncertain logographic meaning when not being a day sign, is the
> syllable /la/ when inverted. (The as-yet-uncertain meaning is neither AJAW nor
> /la/, and the discussion of possibilities is worthy of a book). The inverted
> moon sign is a puzzler (I'm hoping Dave Stuart will respond) and may be
> associated with lunar conjunction. BUT--the upright moon sign, with slightly
> different infixes, has several logographic values and one syllabic value.
> 
> Furthermore, the STAR sign outside the 'destruction' context is the day sign
> LAMAT, also a topic for a lengthy discussion (not here). The Central Mexican
> equivalent is RABBIT--not the most destructive beast on the planet
> (Australians may disagree). In the Dresden Venus Tables, the STAR sign surely
> reads EK', but outside astronomical contexts, probably not.
> 
> The STAR-with-WATER DROPS is also a topic for a lengthy discussion, and one
> began a couple of months ago with, as I recall, a query from Prudence Rice, so
> please check the Aztlan archives for that exchange. A suggested reading came
> up, and then Christian Prager reminded us that Erik Boot had long-ago
> suggested the same reading, and subsequently I have had detailed private
> exchanges with Erik and Christian and we seem to be at a point of consensus
> that it does, indeed, mean 'destruction' and 'collapse', but since it is
> Erik's reading, we on the list will have to hear from him on the specific
> Mayan root represented. I can say with confidence that it is not CHAY,
> however.
> 
>> I've also read in a classic Maya dictionary that CHAY means fish. How can
> CHAY mean both fish and destruction?
> 
> Mayan languages have homonyms just as English does. And while English takes
> pains to often (not always) spell them differently, we have no problem sorting
> them out by ear from the context. This does not mean they are related or are
> part of some larger symbolic constellation. Consider /hops/ the verb, as in
> 'the rabbit hops' vs. /hops/ the plant, source of fine fermented brews.
> They're spelled the same but are unrelated, unless we want to make up a story
> about drunken rabbits.
> 
>> Thus the Mayan
> word CHAY meaning both fish and ?to be destroyed? now makes sense as does
> its association with EK/star (if, in fact, there is an association.)
> 
> There isn't.
> 
>> Thus, at least in the Mayan Flood Myth, CHAY, EK and CHUM are
> interrelated.
> 
> No, they aren't.
> 
> If you really want to be *right* about all this, then it would be advisable to
> curb the imagination, set aside what you *want* to see, learn more about Mayan
> languages, and keep asking honest questions.
> 
> Barb
> 
> *****Original Message*****
> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:19:46 -0500
> From: Gary Daniels <Gary at lostworlds.org>
> Subject: [Aztlan] EK & CHAY glyphs related?
> To: Untitled <aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
> Message-ID: <C77F7292.20EA%Gary at LostWorlds.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> 
> Are the glyphs for EK and CHAY related or did they evolve separately? CHAY
> looks like an upside down version of EK. Is this the case or just a
> coincidence? Does turning a Mayan glyph upside down give it a negative
> association? In many cultures turning a symbol upside down has a negative
> association....is it the same in Mayan?
> 
> Since EK means ?star? and CHAY means ?to be destroyed? it immediately brings
> to mind the English word DISASTER. ASTER means ?star? and the prefix DIS
> always creates a negative or opposite meaning to the word it precedes. (A
> DIShonest person is the opposite of honest.) Thus DISASTER would literally
> mean the opposite of star (or bad star) although its real meaning is very
> similar to CHAY in that it relates to destruction:
> 
> disaster: a calamitous event, esp. one occurring suddenly and causing great
> loss of life, damage, or hardship, as a flood
> 
> I?ve also read in a classic Maya dictionary that CHAY means fish. How can
> CHAY mean both fish and destruction?
> 
> All of this makes me think of the ?Mayan Flood Myth and the Decapitation of
> the Cosmic Caiman.? The events begin with the enthronement of God GI in the
> sky thus clearly associating God GI with a star. Eleven years later the
> cosmic caiman is decapitated and his body thrown into the ocean causing a
> flood. The cosmic caiman is a water creature....like a fish. Thus the Mayan
> word CHAY meaning both fish and ?to be destroyed? now makes sense as does
> its association with EK/star (if, in fact, there is an association.)
> 
> Interestingly, the third definition of CHAY is ?to set down.? Does this mean
> that CHAY is also related to CHUM? Again, this brings me back to the Mayan
> Flood Myth with the enthronement of God GI in the sky. Enthronement is
> scripted as CHUM. Since the enthronement happened in the sky, we get an
> association with star or EK. Since all of this precedes the great flood
> disaster, we get an association with CHAY (to be destroyed).  Since the
> flood was caused by a water creature we get another association with CHAY
> (fish). Thus, at least in the Mayan Flood Myth, CHAY, EK and CHUM are
> interrelated.
> 
> The other question I have about CHAY is in regards to the 18 dots beneath
> it. What do these represent? They consist of two groups of dots, 5 big dots
> and 4 small dots, repeated twice, once on either side of the glyph. The
> petroglyph I?m studying also has 18 dots carved into it and I can?t come up
> with a good explanation as to why.
> 
> -Gary Daniels
> http://www.LostWorlds.org
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